Grammar Police Gazette

[willedoo]

3 minutes ago, old man emu said:

After I finished Uni, I went back to live with my parents who had moved to the country, near where I live now. One of the most common birds around the place was the pink and grey galah. You'd see heaps of them sitting on the power lines and in the trees and during harvest you couldn't help hitting them with the car because they were so full of wheat they couldn't get off the ground.

 

A couple of months later we went back down to Sydney for a wedding. While there we were at a shopping centre and passed a pet shop which had a pin and grey galah in a cage for sale at about $15 (it was in the early 70s).  I said to my Dad that when we got back home we ought to catch a few and bring them down to Sydney and make a fortune.

good money at $15 per-galah, or was that per-gola.

[willedoo]

English speakers have a lot of trouble with syllable pronunciation in eastern European languages like Russian, Ukrainian and Belorussian. We always tend to put the emphasis on the wrong syllable, and you see it with place names and commentators trying to pronounce tennis player's names. Examples where we get it wrong (emphasis in bold letters) are names like Vladivostok (more correctly - Vladivostok), and Sevastopol (more correctly Sevastopol). I remember once where tennis player Maria Sharapova said she just went with the flow and accepted the mispronunciation of her name when playing the Australian Open. Commentators used to pronounce her name Shara-pove-a; more correctly Sharap-ova.

 

Having said that, there's always variation in pronunciation within countries. The Russian tendency to pronounce 'o' as 'a' is more predominant in the larger cities than the regions. Moscow is pronounced more like Maskva to the urbanites, whereas out in the boonies it would be more like Moskva.

Edited July 2, 2023 by willedoo

[red750]

Here is an interesting video on the stupid spelling and pronunciation in the English language. My brother sent it to me, because it relates to our surname. I have been called a few variations of the pronunciation.

 

 

[onetrack]

Peter Hooh?? I blame the French ... or the Normans ... or the Germans ... or the Greeks ... or the Romans, with their weird Latin words.

 

Years ago, when we were having a social gathering at his house, an Artillery mate picked up a Royal Australian Artillery medal and handed it to SWMBO, and asked her to read the Artillery motto out aloud - "Ubique, quo fas et gloria ducunt".

She promptly did, without thinking - and a couple of the ladies at the table nearly fainted, when they heard THAT word.

 

There is a word you often see, pronounce it as you may –

“You bike,” “you bykwee,” “ubbikwee” – alludin’ to R. A.

It serves ‘Orse, Field, an’ Garrison as motto for a crest;

An’ when you’ve found out all it means I’ll tell you ‘alf the rest.

 

- Rudyard Kipling - "Ubique"

 

Of course, "ducunt" is properly pronounced "doo-coon-t".

[spacesailor]

How about the Japanese  fishing boat ! .

Fuku Maru .

Sounds a bit vulgar. 

Middleton reef  N S W. : Fuku Maru no., 7 ,wreak ' burnt out '.

spacesailor

 

 

[red750]

I've been called Howe, Hugh, Hoff, and I've worked with a chap who spelt his name the same way and called himself Hoff. We pronounce it Huff, as in rough, tough, enough?

 

Dad's first name was Ivan. His joke on himself was, "When his father first saw him, he said I've enough", and it stuck. He was an only son, had a sister.

[Old Koreelah]

On 2/7/2023 at 9:52 PM, willedoo said:

English speakers have a lot of trouble with syllable pronunciation in eastern European languages like Russian, Ukrainian and Belorussian. We always tend to put the emphasis on the wrong syllable, and you see it with place names and commentators trying to pronounce tennis player's names…

Not just foreign names; Australian names of indigenous origin often get mangled, especially by our media. Even Auntie ABC, once a bastion of correct pronunciation, sometimes gets it wrong.

 

When phoning city-based office workers, I have to teach them how to pronounce Aboriginal place names. It’s appalling how many born and raised Aussies don’t realise words ending “i” sound like the letter. Boggabri,  Murrurundi, Goondiwindi, etc. 

[spacesailor]

AND  ! ,

KGARI

That's doesn't gel on my tongue. 

Or my children's,  they don't,t like that name at all .

spacesailor

[willedoo]

4 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

It’s appalling how many born and raised Aussies don’t realise words ending “i” sound like the letter. Boggabri,  Murrurundi, Goondiwindi,

Except Goondiwindi ends in an 'ee' sound, not an 'eye' sound. Pronounced Gundawindy, shortened to Gundy. Some people call it Goondawindy, but not many. Dirranbandi is the same. Dirranbandi and Mungindi are very close to each other geographically but Dirranbandi ends with an 'ee' sound and Mungindi ends in an 'eye' sound. Dirranbandi is Dirran-bandy and Mungindi is Mung-gin-die with hard g's.

Edited July 14, 2023 by willedoo

[Jerry_Atrick]

I remember stopping in Goonders (that's wehat we called Goondiwindi) on a drive fro Melbourne to Brissi3 years ago not long after the riots there; it was the late 80s from memory.  As we drove into town, we felt there was tension in the air. We found a motel and the proprietor explained what had happened and was surprised anyone was stopping so soon after the riots. I remarked to him we didn't even really hear about them in Melbourne (that I recall).  I think, on the way back we decided to stop in Moree.. I can't recal  Goonders at all, apart from the motel and a milk bar or something where we got some crap for dinner and decided to sample WIN TV for the evening instead of the local pub.

[nomadpete]

I always thought we called it "Gundawindy" because it's one of those towns that there's only 3 things to do to break the boredom......

Shootn, rootn n drinkin.

 

Pretty sure that one time I went into the Chinese takeaway, and the shop counter had a big display of their latest gun cases on display. (No bull)

[old man emu]

I think that the best trap for young players is Goonoo Goonoo.

[octave]

12 hours ago, spacesailor said:

AND  ! ,

KGARI

That's doesn't gel on my tongue. 

Or my children's,  they don't,t like that name at all .

spacesailor

 I believe. the k is silent as in knife

[facthunter]

And Knight, Knot etc and Psychiatrist has a silent Pee. when swimming.  Nev

[willedoo]

Cooladdi is another Queensland town that ends in an 'ee' sound.

[onetrack]

I'd really like to see a breakdown on the full cost of all the name changes to Aboriginal names, after these places have had their European names for 200+ years. The cost of a name change runs through everything from stationery, maps, signage, websites, documents, tourist brochures, etc, etc - and it's a massive hidden burden on everyone from business owners on down to Govt depts. 

 

Locally, any previous attempt to get a road name or location name changed was met with massive official resistance, citing the massive level of costs involved - let alone the confusion as to what is being discussed or talked about, when the new name is being used. But strangely enough, activists today get names changed to unpronounceable dead language names, in an instant, without batting an eyelid.

 

Interestingly, in W.A., about 90% of the rural location names are an English translation of the original local Aboriginal language name. Seems like the best arrangement to me.

Now our PC/Aboriginal-driven W.A. Govt has started giving places double Aboriginal language/European names, adding to the confusion on an even larger scale.

 

https://www.landgate.wa.gov.au/location-data-and-services/place-names-and-addressing/aboriginal-place-naming/

 

http://www.wanowandthen.com/Weird-Names.html

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-06/until-1936-place-naming-in-wa-was-a-free-for-all/100801638

 

 

[willedoo]

Some of those town names that have Aboriginal origin might have changed in pronounciation over the years or initially. They would have originally been white man's best attempt at pronouncing and literating the local Aboriginal place name. I suppose a good guide is how the local Aboriginals pronounce a name, if there are any left with an unbroken occupation in the area.

[onetrack]

Here is a link (below) to a UWA thesis, which digs deep into local Aboriginal naming procedures. The interesting part is the primary local Aboriginals, the Noongars (pronounced Noong-Ars) don't have fixed names for places, and their understanding and use of places and names for the locations is fluid, dependent on many other influencing factors.

 

The Noongars actually co-operated with the early settlers and assisted in the naming of many areas of the S.W. of W.A. - but there's nothing to say the other tribes didn't have their own names for locations and features as well. 

 

The gulf between the European style of naming and the Aboriginal style of naming is one that is still with us, and essentially, the Aboriginals life revolved around what naming what was needed to sustain their lifestyle, food and water, and shelter requirements - plus there's a lot of traditional religious or superstitious beliefs interwined into their naming.

 

https://apo.org.au/sites/default/files/resource-files/2011-12/apo-nid60041.pdf

[Bruce Tuncks]

I was under the impression that lots of Australian place names are various versions of " Get fu#ked whitefeller".

I can imagine the white mapmaker asking his trusty black helper "what name this feller place Jacky?" and carefully writing the answer on the map.

As for Goondiwindi, the locals were impressed by how much better Gunnedah sounded, well it doesn't make you feel like a goon huh, if you live there that is.

[Bruce Tuncks]

And, nev, I think that the silent "k" used to be pronounced . Gosh it would be good to go back to Chaucer's time and see.

[octave]

7 minutes ago, onetrack said:

I'd really like to see a breakdown on the full cost of all the name changes to Aboriginal names, after these places have had their European names for 200+ years

 I will bet that the price is relatively cheap.    I like the dual naming system.   Geographic names do change and it is no big deal   (the town of Holbrook for example.)    The idea that these names are unpronounceable I think is a red herring. Sure when you see Kgari for the first time it may be easy to stumble but this is true of many less familiar English words.  

 

Here is an enormous list of Aboriginal place names   List of Australian place names of Aboriginal origin 

 

Some of these names may be tricky to pronounce at first however they are quintessentially Australian. When I came to Australia from England (as a baby) our first house was in Elizabeth (named after the queen of course). We then moved to Salisbury (I am guessing named after the English town), When I joined the RAAF I moved interstate and lived in Richmond (again British I would think) Then We moved to Windsor.  After this, we built a house at Kurrajong, this was the first place I lived with a truly Australian name.

 

 

When my son moved to NZ one of the first things he did was learn how to read and pronounce local place names because he did not want to appear to be a thick tourist.   When we visit we don't want people (or my son) to think we are thick tourists.   To me, there is nothing nicer than after the plane lands and even going through customs to be greeted with  "Kia ora, welcome to Aotearoa/New Zealand." You can really tell you are in a country with its own character and not just another mini Britain.

 

I always attempt to use double names where there is first because I don't find it cognitively difficult and secondly, it opens me up to take an interest in the complete history not just the last 200 or so years. 

[facthunter]

We co named a lot of streets in Japanese in the GOLD coast to attract the tourists. I find getting the Māori names in NZ right, difficult..   Nev

[octave]

I think when you know a few principles Kiwi names are not so difficult.  Mostly quite phonetic but with a few rules like Wh = F.    There are plenty of English names that are not easy:

 

Woolfardisworthy

Costessey

Cockburn

Worcester

Barnoldswick

Wriothesley

Aslackby

Osbournby

Leominster

Godmanchester

Ulgham

Blidworth

Ratlinghope

Fetherstonhaugh

 

None of these words are pronounced as they are written.

[facthunter]

Bulahdelah is one often wrongly pernounced. Anything remotely Welsh, forget it.. English MUST be hard to learn for those from other Parts.  Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

But english does not have genders....   German has 3! Male, Female and neuter....  and the gender of the noun effects a lot of other words too, like die and das instead of "the". Gosh I think we need another language, like Esperanto, if we are ever going to make sense in the world.

There was a guy who tried his best to introduce SR1. ( Spelling Reform 1) He actually edited a model plane magazine for awhile so we could all see the idea. The hard "e" sound, as in "red" was going to be consistent so if you "red" a book, it was spelled the same. Well, even though I agreed with the idea, I didn't like it in practice.

So, "said" should be spelled "sed" etc.  I like this more than "read" becoming "red".

Well, just like Esperanto, SR1 has quietly died from lack of interest.

Some things I reckon are better left alone. ( The qwerty keyboard is a good example, sure they may have got it wrong, but it is just too hard to want to change it)