The politics of Jesus

[Marty_d]

I've been on a bit of a Daniel Silva reading kick - he writes excellent spy thrillers.  Anyway, one of his books ("The Order") had an interesting premise - that the Jews have been persecuted for 2000 years, based largely on the christian religion's portrayal of them as "Christ killers", which in turn is based on a bit in one of the gospels which talks about Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Jerusalem at the time, not really wanting to make the decision to kill Jesus himself and the Jews at the time "crying out with one voice" (without even rehearsing), something along the lines of "Let his blood be on our hands and those of our children", or some rubbish like that.

Anyway... as part of the storyline some scholars poke some holes in this version of "history".  Namely:

- Pontius had already crucified hundreds of Jewish political troublemakers and rabble rousers.  One more wouldn't have bothered him in the slightest.

- This meeting where the Jews supposedly bayed for his blood was apparently in the middle of the night, and that wouldn't have happened.

- How the hell did a bunch of people call out quite a complicated sentence, all at once?

 

So then it offers an alternate theory.  That is, that Jesus was a political troublemaker, Pontius put him on a cross along with a few hundred others, and the Jews themselves (of which Jesus was one) had bugger-all to do with the decision.  BUT - when this new religion started to get going, who were they targeting it at?  The gentiles.  Of which the Romans were one of the biggest populations to recruit to their cause.

Imagine that - you're trying to get other Romans to convert to this religion, where this guy that was executed was supposedly either a great prophet or the son of god, etc.  "But who killed him?" your prospective converts ask.  "Ummmm.... the Roman governor... one of us, actually.,."  At which point the target snorts and walks away.

So what's the politically palatable answer?  Blame the people he came from and lived among, of course!  Your Roman convert doesn't give a toss about them anyway, they're just some inhabitants of a far-flung corner of the Roman empire, and certainly not of the aristocratic Roman classes.

In addition, the gospels weren't written by buddies of Jesus (not actually sure of his real name, but it most likely wouldn't have been that) at the time he was alive.  The earliest was written about 30 years after his death, and some of the later ones were 100 or more years after.  So it was a good opportunity to rewrite history a little in order to give a boost to their fledgling religion.

 

Now to be fair, I don't know how much truth is in this, if any.  I do know that Daniel Silva heavily researches a lot of factual material before he writes his thrillers, and let's face it, knowing how the spin of politics works (and has always worked) it makes more sense than the biblical version.

[nomadpete]

I think you are overthinking all this and the more I think about it, the more I am overthinking about it.

 

Of course politics would have been involved. It always is when there is power and taxes involved.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Someone not too long ago mentioned that the Romans actually killed Jeebers.. I wonder if they read the same book?

 

Interestingly, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Silva_(novelist):

"Silva met Jamie Gangel, a CNN special correspondent while they were both correspondents in the Middle East. They later married, and Silva converted from Catholicism to Judaism, his wife's religion."

 

It may have nothing to do with his theory, or he may well be just defending his new faith, or, after studying his new faith (presumably on converting he had to had read a certain number of texts and passed the equivalent of the exam), he realised there is more than one side of the story..

 

The plight of the jews has intrigued me. I recall in all my years of primary school, not knowing a jew, yet, there were some who had abject hatred of them. I asked one kid who was quite vocal about them if he had ever actually met one.. He said he didn't need do.. So, I can only guess what crap his parrents were feeding him.

 

Personally, from what I have read about religion, which is minimal, I am convinced it was what we call cults today. The difference is that they were established in a time where science and education was minimal, so people were even more maleable than they are today.  The absolute beliefs were passed on, and, voila it is now called a religion.

 

And, like any other collective of people, they become tribal. And then it is my religion against yours, and then the lies are perpetrated... Just look at MAGA - a cult or religion?

 

And, we can't underestimate the intergenerational impact on. - well - generations. I didn't meet a Jew until year 8 (form 2 in the old speak). Yet, in primary school, anti-semetism was rife desite no one there being a Jew (or at least admitting to it). I asked one particualry vocal kid in either grade 5 or 6 if he had ever met a Jew, and he admitted he didn't.. but his father hated them.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[Bruce Tuncks]

Good stuff Jerry.. my difference is that I have never met an anti-semite , and only in recent years met a jew. I guess we had blackfellows and ( for some ) catholics to serve as an outlet for some nasty tribal intolerance. 

An interesting effect around here of the general loss of religion has been that the remaining churchgoers are actually talking to each other...  there used to be lots of different churches down the main street, now there is only one active on a sunday and they take turns at providing the priest. Yes I guess there are some die-hard catholics who won't go to the uniting church, but I personally don't know any. Not that I go anyway, I am one of your lot I think.

[old man emu]

I wonder why only one subgroup of the Ancient Semitic-speaking peoples or Proto-Semitic people who lived throughout the ancient Near East, including the Levant, Mesopotamia, the Arabian Peninsula, and the Horn of Africa from the 3rd millennium BC until the end of antiquity moved throughout Europe from its original lands. The process is labelled the Jewish diaspora, from Greek diaspora "dispersion," from diaspeirein "to scatter about, disperse,". The Hebrews were warned by their God that failure to live by His rules would be punished.

 

Deuteronomy 28:5 - But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee.

28:64 And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

28:65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the Lord shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:

28:66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:

 

Now that's their God setting the rules, but I wonder what the secular reasons were. A Jewish diaspora existed for several centuries before the fall of the Second Temple, and their dwelling in other countries for the most part was not a result of compulsory dislocation. Before the middle of the first century CE, in addition to Judea, Syria and Babylonia, large Jewish communities existed in the Roman provinces of Egypt, Crete and Cyrenaica, and in Rome itself. The Phoenicians were close neighbours and they established a large trading empire culminating the the conflict between Carthage and Rome - Hannibal's war. But none of the other Semitic nations seemed to have left home.  

[Bruce Tuncks]

Gosh, OME, that god was a nasty vindictive thing . It's a good thing he was completely fictional I reckon.

[kgwilson]

That's why I find people with their beliefs in all these writings from different religions total suckers. The books are written by some bloke based on that persons reasoning of what he has learned or what he has invented in his mind to justify things he doesn't or can't understand and then decides it must be his invented God's word. Then once it is all written down in a book people start believing it because they have no better explanation and it saves them from having to come up with an alternative. Using the prose to incite fear is also a great way to suck them in.

 

And so it goes and another religion is born and add another version of God. God number 3001, given there are 3000 identified gods already.

[facthunter]

Has anybody seen ONE? an "Invisible" means of support, might be a false hope but WE are too"special" to JUST DIE. THAT requires a bit of conceit doesn't it.?  Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

27 minutes ago, facthunter said:

THAT requires a bit of conceit doesn't it.? 

I think it requires acceptance we are just another cog in the wheel of nature, and in the end, nothing special.

[facthunter]

I hate crowds so Heaven or Hell don't appeal. You wouldn't get a word in. and Harps warp if they get wet.  Nev

[facthunter]

As far as the Politics of Jesus he seems a bit of a hippy and certainly NO snob and he's anti authoritarian and healed and fed people. Sort of bloke you'd have for Mayor of a good little town where people cared for each other and a good retirement plan. Perhaps he had a lot of Donkeys to sell but I don't think that was it.   Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

Jesus was an invention too, but in some ways better....  he clearly didn't know about germs, as just one example of how he was a bronze-age person if not a fictional character.

( if the stuff written was true, then jesus not only knew about germs, he had invented them. This is obvious nonsense)

[onetrack]

Quote

Has anybody seen ONE?

Of course I have. He's real and alive, and gets in my face on regular occasions, and demands people worship him, holding regular meeting to address his doting followers. I just hope he doesn't end up crucified, which is looking quite likely at this stage.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/donaldtrump

[pmccarthy]

The late Ian Jones, who wrote books about Ned Kelly, also wrote a really interesting book about Jesus. He says the disciples were basically a terrorist cell trying to get rid of the Romans. Well worth reading.

[Old Koreelah]

7 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

An interesting effect around here of the general loss of religion has been that the remaining churchgoers are actually talking to each other...  there used to be lots of different churches down the main street, now there is only one active on a sunday and they take turns at providing the priest. Yes I guess there are some die-hard catholics who won't go to the uniting church…

That’s the trend all over, Bruce. Fascinating to see previously antagonistic proddies pushed into the same ever-diminishing churches. (Reminds me of fish in shrinking pools during a drought.)

The Tykes can’t seem to recruit priests locally, so they have lots of Africans and Filipinos.

 

Empty churches in their thousand are being sold for residential redevelopment, even in the Bible Belt of USA.

[rgmwa]

6 hours ago, onetrack said:

 I just hope he doesn't end up crucified, which is looking quite likely at this stage.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/donaldtrump

I'm less charitable. I hope he does.

[facthunter]

Don't make a Martyr of Don. He'd love that.  Nev

[kgwilson]

At least he wouldn't be around to see it.

[Marty_d]

I reckon an ending fitting his morality and dignity would be more appropriate. 

Like being found dead of a heart attack in a seedy hotel room with a scornful adult actress, surrounded by incriminating documentation of dodgy business dealings, and a phone full of video of him laughing at the stupidity and gullibility of his MAGA followers.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Yeah, but sadly, he won't  have had to endure the pain of being found out.. I prefer being found having a heart attack, but by the time he got out of hostpial, it was too late to contain the damage of everything else that was found.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I know a guy who hopes to be shot by a jealous husband while busy on his wife at 90.

[Bruce Tuncks]

That's not me, I hasten to add...buggered if I would be capable at 90.

[facthunter]

One is capable of being shot at any age but what about the traumatised woman?. Blokes who talk like that are talkers only. Full of it.  Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

Why would anyone want to be shot by a jealous husband while bonking a 90 year old woman? 

 

Horses for courses I guess... 

 

 

[kgwilson]

Now if I was 90 and bonking a 20 year old supermodel I wouldn't want to be shot. I'd want to read the headlines in the news when it was discovered, give TV interviews and collect a few million in rights to the story.

Edited February 3, 2023 by kgwilson