Electric Cars - the discussion continues.

[Jerry_Atrick]

An interesting take on the EV charge in Vic:

 

[red750]

Received this in an email today...

 

The electric car producers are understandably reluctant to  mention this possibility.
Just in case you are planning on buying an electric car…….
Wonder if local fire departments can handle this type of incident?...
What you see in this video is a shorting  cell setting off the rest. It's a chain reaction from the first to the end  car..
Note    the time it took to destroy 3 cars , 1.15 minutes. The first car was destroyed in about 38 seconds.
The fire cannot be extinguished with  water. No fire department will approach a burning battery powered car because    of the toxic gasses produced during the fire.

No recycling place will take the  remains because of the toxic chemicals the batteries  contain.

 

[spacesailor]

Spectacular 

I never thought it could happen.

spacesailor

[Jerry_Atrick]

It's a very god point, Peter... I have seen a couple of vids where a single car goes up and it is extremely rapid and intense. As with all tech, hopefully it will evolve to be quite a lot safer...

Also, the question is how often does it happen?

[octave]

1 hour ago, red750 said:

The fire cannot be extinguished with  water. No fire department will approach a burning battery powered car because    of the toxic gasses produced during the fire.

No recycling place will take the  remains because of the toxic chemicals the batteries  contain.

 

 

 

 

 Lithium batteries for sure have different requirements to extinguish but thankfully are no more likely to catch fire.      

 

There is a lot of exaggeration regarding fires in EVs.   There is quite an industry in trying to hold back progress.  Car fires are extremely common in fact many years ago my van caught fire whilst I was driving it.  There is a lot of novelty news value when something unusual happens such as a shark attack or EV fire but,  these things happen also Couple fight for lives after losing girls in fiery petrol tanker smash on NSW south coast    

 

 

There was a recent event in the US where a Tesla hit a tree. The reporting became hysterical and just plain incorrect.    Tesla Fire in Texas Crash Was Not How It Was Reported, Says Fire Chief

 

 

 

 

New technologies improve life but also bring new problems.    I imagine in the past horse riders were horrified with the idea a driving around with a tank full of highly combustible liquid.   

 

Lithium batteries are being reused and recycled but once you burn a litre of fuel it is gone forever.   Lithium batteries have brought us many benefits but along with that there will also be the occasional incident.  iPhone explodes and catches fire in a student’s back pocket   This does not stop me from enjoying the convenience of my phone.

 

EVs are coming and like every other technology will improve with each iteration.  I for one look forward to technological innovations in all areas. 

 

I think those people who don't wont to ever drive anything other than a petrol or diesel vehicle will more than likely be able to do so for many years to come, although it will of course be the more expensive option but many will be willing to pay.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by octave

[Marty_d]

What was that American car which used to explode if it got hit in the rear? 

[nomadpete]

Petrol can be very hazardous but, like lithium batteries, it isn't guaranteed to spontaneously explode when things go wrong.

 

For instance, any kind of concentrated energy shouldn't be allowed out all at once, whether it's petrol, electric, or steam.

 

All can be disasterous but that doesn't mean it's impractical. It doesn't mean it should be banned.

 

Equally, any of these dangerous products can sometime be unexpectedly benign.

 

For instance, I've personally seen a lit cigarette dropped in a open sink full of petrol. The petrol extinguished it. The same when a lit match was flicked into one. Obviously that doesn't mean it's a safe product!

On another occasion, I saw a car spin out at speed on a long sweeping corner, and arrived backwards into the side fuel tank of a heavy vehicle. Bang. Sparks. The car broke in two. The front (everything forward of firewall) came to rest near my car, with it's battery half crushed and smoking. The boot of the car crushed up to the rear pillar crushing the fuel tank and the two four gallon drums full of petrol. The truck alloy tank was split, spilling 200ltrs of diesel onto the petrol.  There was no fire.

 

I'm concerned but not the least discouraged by those sensationalized reports of possible fires in cars. Every technology has possible hazards. Electric cars will be less hazardous to our health than Petrol. Rest assured that the developers will minimize the risks otherwise they'll go broke.

 

PS, what would your grandad think if you told him that one day all cars will have plastic petrol tanks?

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by nomadpete

[onetrack]

The fire in the video was in Dongguan, China, and the cause is suspected as being related to a faulty charging station that was non-compliant with electrical regulations.

 

It's not true that lithium battery fires can't be put out. They can be controlled by the proper application of Class D extinguishers or extinguishing material.

You simply can't use water on a lithium fire - no different to the fact that you can't use water on a fuel fire. 

 

The major problem appearing, as regards fires, is vehicles utilising magnesium in their construction, for lightness. A magnesium fire really is something to behold.

 

https://gaadiwaadi.com/electric-cars-catch-fire-on-charging-station-in-china-shocking-video/

 

https://hooniverse.com/magnesium-in-automobiles-smart-car-sparkles/

 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by onetrack

[facthunter]

Just compare it with 3 or4  cars being refuelled by petrol diesel or GAS going up. The first vehicle didn't actually burn that long .  2 litres of hydrocarbon fuel properly vapourised will easily blow a house sky high. We have tonnes of fuel in tankers speeding on wet roads. How sensational can that be when things go wrong. When I see a  tanker on the road , I try to distance myself from it.. That's a REAL blob of energy. Imagine one in a tunnel involved in an accident, and it all goes up. Nev

[Cosmick]

May have been posted before, getting to be a long thread -

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

"which might explain why you keep re-electing us!"

[kgwilson]

The NZ government has just announced a rebate of $8,625.00 on new and imported used EVs and hybrids on any purchase up to 80k in value & includes at least 1 Tesla model. This will be partially paid for with penalty taxes on new high emitters which includes the likes of Ford Rangers & Toyota Hiluxes, 2 of the most popular Utes which will cost about $3000.00 more. The emissions standard is being tightened so that companies selling ICE vehicles that do not meet the new regulations will be slugged even more. 

 

This new incentive is on top of the reductions for EVs already in place due to the Emissions trading scheme.

 

And here we are doing nothing, with no emissions scheme at all, Victoria adding a road tax for EVs & Scumo still rabbiting on about a gas led recovery & how some unknown technology will enable us to meet the 2050 emissions deadline when we are at present one of the highest per capita polluters in the world.

[facthunter]

Gas led recovery is only brain farts. Taylor made BS. The land its to be on is owned by a party donor. Highest return "investment" in Australia.. Donate to the LNP.

  BTW the Vic road tax was cancelled out by a Discount on the price. IF all vehicles were electric the roads would still have to be paid for. It's reasonable the users do that on a mileage basis though I wonder how equitable is on a country dirt road. GST on windscreens might cover that. Nev

[red750]

Here's one guy's take that I received in an email today....

 

[octave]

9 minutes ago, red750 said:

Here's one guy's take that I received in an email today....

 

 Quite a lot of BS there.  60% of cars sold in Norway last month were electric   Are people freezing to death in Norway????   

 

This also seems to be suggesting that in a traffic jam EVs will run out of power.   I have actually been in a bad traffic jam in Wellington NZ in my sons EV.    What the writer of this piece of BS  doesn't seem to understand is that EV batteries use the least power when they are moving slowly  they are using very little power and when they come to a stop they are using virtually no power.  Contrast this with the petrol cars that are sitting idling whilst waiting to creep forward a few metres.  In the scenario presented the petrol vehicles at idle will run out of fuel, then guess what, no heater. 

 

Why so anti EV?

 

 

 

[red750]

I didn't write it. Some Republican twit in the US most likely. It was one of many forwarded emails I get daily.

[kgwilson]

The power required for all the electric systems including air conditioning in a car is miniscule compared to that required for its motivation. These are generally run from a completely separate lithium battery system. Sitting in a traffic jam it uses nothing from its drive battery system. The Victorian government is living in last century with such a dumb proposal. Of course roads have to be paid for but the current fuel excise doesn't pay for them anyway & adding a tax on EVs is a disincentive to buying one. Incentives as are now being put in place in NZ and have already been in place in Europe for some years are driving the EV revolution. Range is almost up to 1000km and the price of the latest Tesla to be released next year is aimed to be the same as for an ICE VW golf. Toyotas new solid state batteries will improve range to well beyond 1000km.

 

Despite the governments denial and lack of action by next year we will have electric B doubles up & down the East Coast. The conversion cost is about the same as a diesel engine overhaul & batteries take less time to swap than the required amount of rest time that drivers must take before their next trip. Several centres are being set up, Coffs Harbour being one of them. The savings in ongoing maintenance are huge and the benefits massive with noise and regenerative braking being major factors.

Edited June 13, 2021 by kgwilson

[Jerry_Atrick]

Quite right, KG.. The taxes applied to motorists generally go into consolidated revenue. From there, of course, budget is handed out to the states, and then they decide their road maintenance/building budgets. Of course, as EV and potentially hydro cars take over, which they will as most manufacturers will abandon mass production of ICE vehicles over the next 10 or so years, then there will be a massive hole in government revenue from fuel duties that has to be plugged. But this should give the government a chance to reflect on current taxation systems and maybe do it better? It doesn't mean there has to eventually be a per mile charge on cars/vehicles.. there may be another equitable way of doing it. It also may mean a per mile charge, once EVs are at critical mass is the right thing to do, but I would also think it would be worth making a per mile charge for all vehicles. At the end of the day, the fuel duties paid are almost a per mile charge, except when stuck in traffic and a few years ago, the national UK government got into hot water providing incentives to councils to make traffic more congested and "calm" traffic.. with the view that which each litre of fuel burned doign nothing, was free money to government coffers.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Mildura is setting up for trucks on east-west route.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Slightly off topic, but electric aircraft (which, I suppose, are EVs).. Of course, given the load on the electricity network, carbon emissions on present infrastructure would be transferred, a case where the costs are reduced compared to oil based fuels?

 

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

And this just came into my inbox: https://ukga.com/news/view?contentId=53310

 

[facthunter]

A fuel tax is a reasonably equitable way to pay for road use. Heavier vehicles do a big proportion of the damage  and use more fuel. If you don't use the roads why should you pay for them? That's the farmers and Miners argument and mogas used in a plane (or a lawnmower shouldn't either. I'm all for electric vehicles but why create a disparity of funding in principle? IF you wish to promote them do it another way as the Vic Government has done (Subsidy) rather than put the problem off till there's a lot of money involved  and it becomes political.. Nev

[spacesailor]

Not all road user,s are paying their way ,.

One group gets away with No registration, No CTP, No seat belt law,

AND 

Carriage of passengers in trailers !.

All legal.

spacesailor

Edited June 19, 2021 by spacesailor
Spelling

[Jerry_Atrick]

Just read in newsfeed at work (so can't copy to here), Europe is setting regulations to slash emissions from new cars and vans by 65% by 2030 and 100% by 2035..

 

Can see a vibrant used car market forming (unless they reduce the emissions all cars and vans can emit).

 

 

[Marty_d]

I don't think it'll be an issue - in the majority of cases natural attrition will take care of the used car market.  That and the fact that with less demand on fuel, prices will go up until it becomes financially unviable to own an ICE car.