Israel

[willedoo]

This is an interesting article by journalist Chris Sweeney writing for RT. They interviewed Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss who is part of a religious group of Haredi Jews calling for the abolition of the state of Israel and the reinstatement of Palestine. He points out what he sees as the difference between Jews and Zionists.

 

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/524455-neturei-karta-rabbi-weiss-israel/

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

It is an interesting article. One thing to note, though, is that the views are not representative of the Haredi jews per se, but a splinter group, I suppose: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta. I would doubt they represent the view of most orthodox jews.

 

Be that as it may, the latest skirmish is another sad indictment of religions, which are a glorified version of tribes that it comes to yet more violence.

 

Interestingly, they seem to be paying more hommage to the awaiting of the messiah before they can take their place in the holy land again... rather than goodwill to others So they may not be Zionists... yet... (and forever because, there ain;t no messiah!)

 

BTW, I have no idea of the cause of the conflict this time.. Which is pretty well consistent with every other time, to be honest.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I feel a bit sorry for the  Israelis. One day the wheels are going to come off the US umbrella and they are going to have an awful war with the moslems.

We think of their religions as being very different yet they are both Abrahamic religions and therefore closely related. Abraham would have been locked up in an asylum these days I hope. He was insane.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Bruce Tuncks

[gareth lacey]

Dont worry about the Israelis, they have one of the best  armies in the world lots of motivation to never let it happen again by anyone(the holocaust)they are backed by US so will get the best gear,also they are very technically advanced in avionics and weapons,with hundreds of millions of Muslims trying to massacre them, all the muslims have to do is say that they have a right  as a sovereign nation to exist then they could then start to be friendly to each other but religeon always gets in the way of reality

[Bruce Tuncks]

Gareth, my point is that Israel is effectively an outpost of the US and therefore it is safe for as long as the US have the will and the means to support them.

[facthunter]

It will probably be the epicentre of the  hostilities of the ME for ever.. For the Palestinians it's been the "death by a thousand cuts"..  Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

I had watched two accounts of the problem, each from a different perspective. Obviously, there were contradictions from both accounts. What was in agreement that this time, unlike other skirmishes, there was a body of support from the non-Gaza Palestinians and Arabs for the Gaza Palestinians, that is not normally the case. That in itiself is interesting, because this is not the first time something like this has happened, and to think there was no or little support from the bretheren in previous altercations is a little eye opening.

 

There was also agreement that things for the Gazan Palestinians have worsened over the years, since Hamas took/obtained  control. There is a different account of how that control was obtained/taken, but it is clear that since then, the dealh by 1,000 cuts. It may well have been the case before Hamas took power as, assuming power was granted by the people of Gaza rather than taken (haven't looked that up yet), then they did it for a reason. There is no doubt that within Gaza, which is tightly controlled in terms of what can come in and go out, suffers poverty and lack of opportunity. The control of what goes in and out is to control the opportunity for munitions and weapons (doesn't seem to be working as they seem better armed than fed).  So, yes, the population is put under great strain and it hits breaking point, which results in violence, and then retaliation. It is never ending.

 

However, while Hamas is controlling Gaza and is hell-bent on the violent destruction of Israel, there will always be conflict between them. While the Nutrei Karta is taking a position on religious grounds, Israel is now a sovereign nation that is a Jewish state much the same way that most of the countries of Europe are soverign nations that are Christian states. And in fact, you could argue that Australia is as well. The main religion is Christian and the country is operated politically - this would appear the same as Israel (with the exception that the main religion is Judaism).

 

This seems to be a balanced summation.. if one can deliver it in 5 and-a-half minutes:

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Well said jerry. I think it just awful that hamas can get new supporters from an attack on Israel, using the disproportionate Israeli response to their advantage. But when you look at Australia's involvement in many wars, who are we to criticise?

[Old Koreelah]

Israel’s long-time leader Netanyahu has been in trouble with the courts and the voters for years; recently it looked like his grip on power was finally over. Then, like some miraculous co-incidence, yet another Palestinians uprising allows him to once again show how good he is at hammering them.  
 

Forgive my cynicism, but anyone could have predicted the reaction when the Israelis suddenly decide to evict long-term Palestinian residents from their homes in Jerusalem. A few hundred more deaths and massive destruction, just to save one politician’s career.

 

There are good people on both sides, but the biggest threat to peace is the insidious Zionist takeover of more and more Palestinian land. Israeli settlement are growing like cancers, displacing Palestinians from their ancestral lands.

This is how bad it looked 16 years ago:

 

 

[Yenn]

Many years ago I said that the difference between Nazi Germany and Israel was 50 years. It still appears to be the case as we only need to look at what israel is doing to see that their main aim is to get rid of Palestinians. Of course the Arabs do not help as they all hate Israel and are happy to see palestinians launch rockets from Gaza into Israel. That way they can look like supporting their fellow Arabs, but not risk anything themselves. Hamas appears to want to do what the Jews did after WW2, that is become the badlytreated underdog and get world support against the big bully Israel.

We never seem to be able to stop these little wars and the UN seems to love to be able to condemn their behaviour, call for peace and spend vast amounts looking after the refugees, while doing nothing to solve the underlying problems.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Hmmm... From a video I will post below, the Palestinians were evicted from their homes, which were owned by jews, were rent controlled (i.e. fixed low rate rent), because they stopped paying their rent - and I guess for some time - allegedly (can't believe everything someone says). If the expected reaction to evicting people for not paying their rent in private rentals, of which the rent is controlled, is that it is OK to shell people for it, then I am missing something..  Yes, the vid would be biased as it is an Israeli who made it...

 

The biggest threat to peace in the ME (and NE Africa) is not some zionist takeover plot. Have you not seen the wars the Arabs wage on themselves that kill many hundreds of thousands, if not millions more - that have nothing to do with Israel?

 

In the other thread where the above picture is also posted, we discussed at length what appear to be misconceptions fed about Israel - Coming from a place of almost total ignorance,  I learned a lot and posted tho that thread, and not much of what I learned was disputed. I learned that the jews bought the land off wealty Arabs.. and the Palestinians may have been forced off the land the Jews owned at some stage, I think it is reasonable that if you own the land you take posession. Then, when I stated it still doesn't make it right that someone creates a nation state from another nation state just because they own some land in it, OME corrected me and informed me there was no nation state!

 

Then, from who I presume in an Arab in the CNN video I posted, he delivered some truths about the administration of Gaza, which was less than endearing.

 

I also thought we dealt with the concept that Israel is like the Nazis... I don't see it in the facts so far.. and, apart from a hotel bombing and a right wing Jew killing his Prime Minister, there doesn't seem to be too much else in terrorism committed by the Jews/Israels.. Infiltration and espionage, yes.. terrorism.. no..  And, I learned from the vid below they give 10 minute warning of attack to minimise civilian casualties.. Very Nazi like, I must admit.

 

So, in this case, apparently a private landlord/tenant fued escalates... Hamas decides to shell Israel... Really? (If this is the case, but if it is more than that, please let me know).

 

As I have said, if I end up in the ME again, I have really effed up badly, but please, let's speak facts..

Now.. what about Australia?

 

 

Darn it.. can't find the vid.. will have to post it later...

 

 

 

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

 -------

Here it is.. BTW, I forgot to mention (as I am eating into work time), that I agree that Israel is becoming more aggressive with its land take, and that a separate Palestinian state should be established. It won't end conflict in the ME, unfortuantely. But I disagree that zionism means a land for Jews only.. appears all sorts of religions and races are tolerated.. .(the bloke whop bought my Jackaroo off me when I last left Aus was a Philippino chef who lived in Israel for a long time and sung its praises until the Russian jews arrvied).

 

 

[octave]

jerry so far I have only watched the first part but what I found jarring was when he referred to deaths' and injuries on both sides, "Israeli and Hamas"  I am always on the look out for slanted language and I believe this is slanted.   It suggests that the two sides involved are Israel and Hamas  rather than Israelis  and the Palestinians.  This is subtly suggesting that Palestinian equals Hamas which equals terrorist.    He also says "if you shoot at me and my children I am going to shoot back" this is understandable but this is also true of the Palestinians.     I do not know what the solution is but I do know that this is not it has never worked in the past and it wont work in the future.

 

A solution can only happen when both sides can live in dignity and safety. 

[Old Koreelah]

On 28/05/2021 at 6:17 PM, Jerry_Atrick said:

Hmmm... From a video I will post below, the Palestinians were evicted from their homes, which were owned by jews, were rent controlled (i.e. fixed low rate rent), because they stopped paying their rent...

Yes Jerry it’s a complex issue, but the undeniable reality is that Palestinians displaced from their homes have no right of return, but Jew do.

 

Quote

...The biggest threat to peace in the ME (and NE Africa) is not some zionist takeover plot. Have you not seen the wars the Arabs wage on themselves that kill many hundreds of thousands, if not millions more - that have nothing to do with Israel?

Can’t argue with that, Jerry. Respect for human life is thin on the ground in the Arab world.

 

Quote

...i also thought we dealt with the concept that Israel is like the Nazis... I don't see it in the facts so far.. and, apart from a hotel bombing and a right wing Jew killing his Prime Minister, there doesn't seem to be too much else in terrorism committed by the Jews/Israels...

The comparison to Nazis stems from the many reports of Jewish settlers who take over Arab lands, harass local Palestinians farmers and sabotage their crops, trees and water supplies. Surely the impressive modern nation of Israel, a beacon of good management, can rein in these fanatics.

[Jerry_Atrick]

With respect to the current evictions that caused the skirmish, it seemed a private tenant/landlord issue exacerbated by zealot law enforcement that could have handled it a lot better, especially in Ramadan. I agree that the Israeli government needs to exercise far better control around these sorts of things; at the moment, the world is going nuts and leaning too far right, which the Israeli government and people are, too (although that is not entirely fair - like every country, there are a good number of, shall we say moderates). Unfortunately, countries with much less conflict are also going that way.. Kids in the UK love Boris and what he is doing; need I talk about the US, except that Texas have just enacted a law allowing anyone of legal age to carry hand guns - no background checks, etc. Compare this to back in '97 after I crashed a car in Dallas and the policeman told me that weekend they enacted to allow licensed handgun holders to carry them concealed in shopping centres. Also, chances are SFM will get re-elected, too. Netanyahoo, although not winning a clear mandate, was appointed to the chagrin of whoever decides these things in Israel.

 

However, having said that, the Israeli's convicted one of their own who killed a Palestinian attacker (albeit injured). Personally, I think the sentence was too lenient, but I can't help but think if it were the other way around, the Arabs (Palestinians, Saudis, etc) would have held the assailant up as a hero: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/21/elor-azaria-israeli-soldier-jailed-18-months-killing-palestinian

 

Again, the Nazi thing got me interested in this whole quagmire in the other thread this was discussed.. But it wasn't quite like the Nazi thing that is promulgated.. The Jews from the late 1800's legitimately, and without duress (or at least I couldn't find in the research I did, any form of duress) purchased large swathes of land from wealthy Arabs where the Bedouin gangs roamed and was largely unproductive in terms of the local Arab stable of corn. I use local Arabs, as, although there have been references to Palestine since 5BC, it hasn't been referenced as a sovereign nation (I thought it had until OME corrected me). I am not sure when it was firmed, as I haven't done all the research, but the Balfour Treaty seems to be it - but it wasn't a nation state. So, the jews decided to create their nation state with land they had purchased (which is why it was fragmented), and the Palestinians had the rest - which was all the main holy sites, etc. etc. This is not displacing people in the context of forced through war. They bought the land and, as you would buy a farm, would request the occupiers to vacate it.. This is not Nazism.. Arab countries waged wars with Israel after it, and without US help., they won the 1948 and 1967 wars.. and in wars they took territory; and for attempted peace, largely handed it back = including the whole Sinai. They learned the hard way after that, making such concessions doesn't buy much, and the first time they took US support in the 1970-someting war, they followed US requests and were almost annihilated.

 

I find it interesting that these facts are never brought up.. As are the facts there are Palestinian members of parliament, there was a Palestinian general in the IDF, there is  (or was) one or two Palestinians who sit on the bench of the Supreme Court (or its equivalent), that Palestinians do (albeit in small numbers) volunteer with the IDF (they are not conscripted).

 

Although, I take the point there is no homeland for the Palestinians to go to in terms of their own country. But thinking about it.. they did! In 1948, when Israel declared its independence, Palestine was also recognised as a sovereign state by the UN. However, the next day, the Arabic countries wages war on Israel, and lost, with the resultant loss of territory. Israel gave some back, but a lot of the Palestinian territory is militarily advantageous, and I would also withhold it. Unf with wars, territory is won and lost.

 

That is about the extent of my knowledge.. and I am sure there are big gaps and misconceptions; it was a bit of an education, though. Israel is far from perfect, but compared to those around them, I know which country I would rather be in (and yes, I have worked in two of those other countries - one progressive by their standards - and all I can say is WTF?).

 

Of course, the settlements into Palestinian (PLO/Hamas?) held areas should not happen.. there is no chance of peace in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict without it. 

 

That's enough of a ramble - Public holiday today - nice and warm, and the BBQ was good fun!

 

[Yenn]

A lot of the land occupied by Israel as not bought from the Arabs but they were terrorised to get off it, so that Jews could take it over.

A lot of the problems go back to what was promised by Britain when they wanted both the Arabs and Jews on their side in the war with Gernmany.

I think if you go back and look at what was promised, Britain has promised to look after the Arabs at the expense of the Jews and vice versa.

Perfidious Albion. 

[Jerry_Atrick]

It certainly isn't cut and dried.. I did a bit of poking around and some of the land apparently was purchased in absentia - which I couldn't find out what was actually meant (for example, I purchased my last house in London in absentia of the landlord we were renting from - he was living in Sydney at the time and it was up to his representative to do the negotiation on his behalf.. Although in the end I found his email address and concluded the negotiation on price, everything else was done by his representative - and yes - he was paid the monies).

 

There are also different quotes on the percentage of land purchased and as far as I can work out, some are quoting the percentage of land originally set aside for the original state of Israel as defined in 1948 (where there was a separate state of Palestine defined by the UN, apparently) and some as a percentage of the borders as drawn today.

 

I'll do a bit more research on the topic (inc. the Balfour Treaty) and then I think I will be done with the topic.. and least for a while. The reason is because, there is so much about Australia and its history I don't know.. and would rather focus on something closer to home.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Jerry_Atrick

[willedoo]

It's looking like that yahoo of a PM might be out. I see some protesters in Israel call him the Crime Minister.

[Old Koreelah]

I understand why Jerry wants out of this discussion; so do I, because the solution seems further off than ever and the stress ain’t doing me any good. A few years ago there were some encouraging grass-roots peace moves from former fighters on both sides, who had renounced violence and chosen to live next to their former enemies; I wonder how they are going.

[Jerry_Atrick]

It's more a prioritisation call on my time.. A few blokes on a forum aren't going to change anything. But since I like playing devil's advocate, I had to learn something - and in a short time, I learned a lot - which challenged my previous held beliefs (as they were not based on fact). BTW, I have never supported Israel being a pillar of democracy and humanity, but I do, on the facts, think they get an unfairly bad wrap - at the moment. But as I mentioned, much more to learn before I can say it with absolute confidence - and - well, a) I have many things going on at the moment, and b) Australian and indigenous Australian history and sociology is far closer to me than the Middle East. 

 

BTW, it's old news now, but Nertanyahu has been ousted by a single seat in what can only be described as a coalition of marriages made in hell: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/12/new-israeli-coalition-government-seeks-to-put-an-end-to-the-netanyahu-era

 

The first leader will be a far right nationalist who is an Orthodox Jew and supports further Israeli settlement in the Palestinian territories, and to be followed after two years by a leader who's party policy is a centralist party of which their policy is more about reconciliation with Palestinians. As the article says, crucially, it includes an Arab (Palestinian) party - the first time a Palestinian party has been involved in government and not simply opposition. And there are a further 5 parties, who I guess represent various positions within the bounds of those listed above.

 

Interestingly, the article states of the Arab party: "The party’s leader, Mansour Abbas, is seen as a pragmatist and said he had secured guarantees from hard-right coalition partners for greater rights for Palestinian citizens of Israel, including on discriminatory housing policies, as well as several billions of pounds for infrastructure in Arab areas."

 

And that is the crux of what got me involved in all of this.. My suggestion was that like it or not, Israel is here to stay, and questioning whether it would be better to work with them to improve the Palestinian lot or fight them. It seems one Arab party leader within Israel has come around to my way of thinking (although, of course, I can't take credit for it). And has secured, at least in principle, some interesting benefits for Israeli Palestinians as well.. If this is carried out, could this not be considered a "win-win", even if small, and a small, but major step to sorting out the Israeli/Palestinian problem?

 

Of course, with a wafer thin majority and the only thing motivating the key players is keeping Netanyahu out of office, it is a very unstable coalition and once it faces its first real political test, who knows what will happen.. I guess if there is the threat that Netanyahu can return, the coalition may hold; but as that threat recedes, well, it is only a matter of time before the coalition implodes.

[Dax]

Remove israel and you remove just about all the problems of the middle east and around the planet. Israel's a perfect example of terrorism, violent invasion and ongoing aggression against those it has and continues to displace. All their claims can be shown to be false, via history, archaeology, chronology and anthropology.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Er.. up until a few months ago, I have been antipathetic to the ME.. I have only been there once for work, Abu Dhabi, and it is a shit hole if you concern yourself about human rights at all.. But, a similar assertion was made here about 6 months ago, and i thought, hmm.. how can a country that is so small be the root of all issues..

 

So answer me this... what does Israel have to do with Yemen, Iran, Syria, Iraq Turkey cleansing the Kurds, Libya, and so on? Are you seriously saying Israel is the reason? Do you really think the Iraq/Iran 20 year war because of Israel anf that if Isrtael didn't exist, the ME would be at peace?

8 hours ago, Dax said:

and around the planet.

And the rest of the worlds problems? Come on... They don't even have any oil!!! So, again, your logic is that if Israel didn't exist, there would be world peace? OK...  but, to me, what you wrote is anti-semetism  rather than anti-zionism..  Which is fine.. you're allowed to be... But can you present the facts to back up the above, and the below?

8 hours ago, Dax said:

All their claims can be shown to be false, via history, archaeology, chronology and anthropology.

I don't even know what their claims are, but the rudimentary research I did that went back to 1948 didn't tally with common perceptions. Like, they aren't trying to drive people out.. why would they have a Palestinian in their supreme court bench, and have a growing Arab population in the non-Gaza area... and have now an Arab party in a coalition in government? Never sounds like to me, someone who wants to drive them out... But hey, show me other facts, and I will listen.

[Dax]

11 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

So answer me this... what does Israel have to do with Yemen, Iran, Syria, Iraq Turkey cleansing the Kurds, Libya, and so on? Are you seriously saying Israel is the reason? Do you really think the Iraq/Iran 20 year war because of Israel anf that if Isrtael didn't exist, the ME would be at peace?

All those countries are muslim, they have been relatively peaceful until the jews invaded, slaughtered the people and took over. Since then israel has been expanding their borders and terrorising the people of the area, who try fighting back but the jews blockade there supplies and have forced most into extreme poverty throughout the region.

 

There will never be any peace in the world as long as there is religion and other ideologies, they by definition are warmongering and suppressive, which their entire history is proof of.

 

I'm anti religious, irrelevant to what faction of the cult it is, they are all as evil and as abusive as each other, providing nothing but trouble throughout the planet.

[spacesailor]

 

I was lead to believe the Ottoman empire started it.

BIG civil  war !.

spacesailor

[onetrack]

To say all the Muslim countries have been relatively peaceful is a joke. Their religion is based on hatred, murder, retribution, killing of unbelievers - and even Mohammad himself was the greatest warmonger of all time, having started no less than 38 large-scale wars. He spread the religion of Islam based on pure terror and slaughter, nothing less.

 

The Muslims have slaughtered more of their own, than they have of any other religion that opposed them. And they still practise murderous religious "extremist" terrorism today, any chance they get. Try burning a Koran and see how your life changes.