The climate change debate continues.

[kgwilson]

Totally agree regarding Induction cooking. We installed a Bosch Induction cooktop back in 2008. Then it cost about $3,500.00 but the performance was amazing. While it had 4 cooking zones there was a power option than combined 2 of the zones together with the output in 1 zone. It would boil a litre of water from cold in 45 seconds. Control is superb and instant & the cooking surface never gets baked on spillages as it stays cool only getting hot from the transfer of heat from the bottom of the pot.

 

We are renovating the house we purchased last year & installing a new kitchen. Cooking appliances are all AEG & the induction cooktop has a matt finish which is very scratch resistant & is wirelessly connected to the rangehood so the lights & fan are switched on & the speed managed automatically while cooking & both together cost less that the original Bosch from 2008.

[Siso]

On 18/04/2026 at 2:56 PM, octave said:

But then aren't you part of the problem? You could take the ethical stand and disconnect your panels for the good of the grid.

Yep, I am a part of the problem. I could take the ethical stand and disconnect but it saves me money. I am a hypocrite!

[facthunter]

Well there's Plenty of them around, so it could be said you are not Robinson Crusoe, there. Nev

[octave]

4 hours ago, Siso said:

Yep, I am a part of the problem. I could take the ethical stand and disconnect but it saves me money. I am a hypocrite!

 

I don’t see people with rooftop solar as part of the problem—I see generating your own clean electricity as a positive.

If we zoom out a bit, the real issue looks different.

The electricity grid we use today was largely designed and built from the 1950s through to the 1990s. It was built as a one-way system: electricity flowed from large, centralised generators—coal, gas, and hydro—out to consumers. That made perfect sense at the time, because generation technology dictated that structure.

But generation technology has changed.

We now have distributed energy—rooftop solar being the most obvious example—where electricity is produced at the edges of the grid, not just at the centre.

I think this is where we differ. You seem to be saying (correct me if I’m wrong) that generation methods should be limited by what the existing grid can handle. I’d argue the opposite: the purpose of the grid is to distribute electricity as efficiently as possible, and that means adapting it to modern forms of generation, not restricting those forms to suit legacy infrastructure.

A useful comparison is telecommunications. In the 1990s, the copper phone network was sufficient for voice calls. Then the internet arrived, and we initially squeezed it through that same copper using dial-up. As technology advanced, the limitations became obvious.

We didn’t respond by saying “we must limit internet use because the network can’t cope.” We upgraded the network—eventually rolling out systems like the National Broadband Network.

Electricity is no different. Rooftop solar isn’t a flaw in the system—it’s a signal that the system needs to modernise.

 

The system was built for one-way, centralised generation. Now we’ve got distributed generation changing demand patterns. That’s an engineering and market design problem, not a reason to limit a cheaper, cleaner energy source.

 

 

Edited 11 hours ago by octave

[Siso]

I see this making it expensive for large users who unfortunately are the employers of people. the hatched lines are the constraints for the last couple of days and I have seen it worse. By the time we add enough generation to cover the bad times, the good times are going to have a lot of oversupply. Are the generators going to just accept this or make their energy more expensive. Also shows how much smore storage we need. (SA grid)

 

[octave]

Rooftop solar isn’t the problem here—the constraints you’re pointing to are a sign the grid hasn’t caught up yet.

The system we’re using was built for one-way power flow from large generators, not for distributed generation like rooftop solar. So when you see oversupply or curtailment in places like South Australia, that’s not solar “breaking” the grid—it’s the network hitting its limits in moving and using cheap energy.

We’ve seen this before in other sectors: when better technology comes along, you don’t hold it back to suit old infrastructure—you upgrade the system. That’s exactly what needs to happen here with transmission, storage, and smarter demand.

Yes, we need enough capacity for low-renewable periods, and yes, storage is critical—but that’s part of the transition. Excess daytime generation isn’t a flaw, it’s an opportunity to shift cheap energy into the evening peak.

Even Australian Energy Market Operator is clear on this: the solution is more transmission, more storage, and better integration—not less rooftop solar.

So those constraint charts don’t show solar causing instability—they show where investment is needed to modernise the grid.

 

You don’t solve a modern energy system with 20th-century infrastructure—you upgrade the infrastructure.

 

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Larger companies are starting to build their own renewable power generation. Fortescue is the big one, but others including Alcoa are following suit. AGL is also building its owne 200MW generation plant (and they are typically a retailer). 

 

They don't do this if there is a better return elsewhere. 

[red750]

For those who didn't see it, here is the 7 News Spotlight report on the Chinese domination of producing so-called "green" energy products and what effect that is having. I know you will decry and put it down, but there are some shocking things revealed.

 

https://7plus.com.au/7news-spotlight      (The Green Dream).

[Jerry_Atrick]

It doesn't like to play its content to us foreigners.. .

 

Quick question.. What is the shocking stuff it revealed?

[red750]

Cobalt mining in Africa using kids, no environmental cleanup, etc. just to name a couple. I'll try and record some of it tonight.

[octave]

11 minutes ago, red750 said:

Cobalt mining in Africa using kids, no environmental cleanup, etc. just to name a couple.

Whilst some cobalt is mined under poor conditions, my understanding is that most is not.   The other thing is that batteries are increasingly moving away from cobalt.  LFP (lithium iron phosphate) uses no cobalt at all.

 

I think it is entirely appropriate to give a sh1t about the percentage of cobalt that is mined by dubious means; however, it is often used is some sort of argument against renewables and EVs. Does anyone say oil refining is evil because it uses cobalt as a catalyst?  About 20% of cobalt comes from artisanal mines with poor conditions.

 

Some uses of cobalt

 

Batteries (EVs, phones, home storage)

 Superalloys (jet engines, turbines)

 Magnets (motors, wind turbines)

 Catalysts (oil refining, chemicals)

 Pigments (cobalt blue in glass/ceramics)

 Medical uses (cancer treatment, sterilisation)

 Tool steels and industrial uses

[octave]

Coincidentally, I just came across this.  I will post a link but here are some highlights.

 

https://reneweconomy.com.au/wild-attack-on-batteries-and-renewables-by-7s-spotlight-program-falls-over-at-the-first-fact-check/?fbclid=IwY2xjawRSvLRleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZBAyMjIwMzkxNzg4MjAwODkyAAEeRENsgXVWg03njVcjEv25LrV4q7XUJEVAYcOkDfurOU4zO3LDDzae9NSaOn8_aem_LVPR3uKcuhqbLOHAX9gfnA

 

 

 

Spotlight, the so-called flagship current affairs program on the 7 network, dedicated more than an hour on Sunday evening on a report into the supply chains feeding into the renewables and EV industries, with a particular focus on cobalt mines in the Congo, and also activities in Australia. It was amplified on Murdoch and social media.

It fell over at the very first fact-check. “Every battery, every electric vehicle, every piece of so-called clean energy technology today” uses cobalt, reporter Liam Bartlett claimed at the start of the program.

Wrong.

Nearly every big battery installed in Australia these days uses (LFP) lithium iron phosphate chemistry, which means no cobalt, and no nickel (that’s relevant because Bartlett did a similar hit job on the nickel industry last year, using that as a platform to attack EVs and renewables).

Tesla, the biggest supplier to big batteries in Australia, now uses only LFP batteries for grid scale batteries. No cobalt. The two big batteries at Liddell and Tomago being built for AGL Energy by Fluence are LFP. No cobalt. A spokesperson for Fluence said all its batteries in Australia use LFP. “We don’t use cobalt.”

Finland-based Wartsila, which is building the country’s biggest grid battery at Eraring for Origin Energy, also uses only LFP for its battery projects in Australia. No cobalt.

It’s a similar story with EVs. Tesla, for instance, uses only LFP chemistry for most of the variants of its best selling Model Y and the Model 3. No cobalt. It uses NMC chemistry (which does include cobalt) only in “performance” variants, which amounts to about 10 per cent of sales.

Home batteries, which are now being installed at record rates in Australia, are the same. New market leader Sigenergy uses only LFP chemistry, so no cobalt, as does another market leader Sungrow, and most others.

Bartlett claims to be appalled by the conditions in some cobalt mines in the Congo, and the nickel mine in Indonesia. And so he should be. So should everyone.

But the inconvenient truth is that these mines have been operating for decades, and cobalt has been used widely in many industries.

 

The mineral is essential for the iPhone that Bartlett presumably uses, for the laptop he writes his stories on, for the jet engines that flew him from Australia to Africa, and for widespread use in medicine (hip and knee replacements), the petroleum industry, the manufacture of tools, for construction, for cosmetics, and even ceramics.

The use of cobalt in EV and grid batteries is relatively new, and is already moving on. Where it is used, most EV makers are at pains to point out that the mineral does not come from such mines, and they produce blockchain style tracking reports to underline their claims.

But Bartlett did not seem particularly interested in balance, or inconvenient detail. His story had three major themes – he doesn’t like the Chinese, he doesn’t like renewables and EVs, and he doesn’t like federal energy and climate minister Chris Bowen.

“Bowen’s fanatical approach, aided and abetted by a conga line of true believers and latte-sipping Teal supporters is now set to send the country into bankruptcy,” Bartlett wrote in an op-ed also published on 7’s website.

 

Bartlett – was global head of TV, creative visual at oil giant Shell in London from 2013-2015

 

 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by octave

[facthunter]

Most Mining does a lot of environmental damage which could be reduced IF we were fair dinkum about it .You only have to Look at PLASTIC which we all use. REcycling is the way to go. The World's oceans and rivers are not bottomless  rubbish tips. . Desal Plants could provide Minerals. We haven't tried yet. There is NO Plan et B. Nev

[old man emu]

Ther is one big problem with recycling hat is never mentioned: the cost of transporting material for recycling. Today I was talking to the boss of our local recycling station. He told me that he sells his cardboard for recycling for $1000/tonne. However, it costs him $2000/tonne to transport it to the next step in teh recycling (probably packing for transport overseas. I didn't ask). So, he says he will continue to accept cardboard, but he will have to stockpile it until transport costs drop. No doubt the same factors impinge on the glass and plastic recycling.

 

The last time you got your car serviced, or replaced tyres, did you notice the environmental levy added to yoiur bill? I'd really like to know where those tyres are being recycled in Australia. There are rumours of rural properties being leased and used to store tyres for recycling. Often they never seem to leave the properties. What is saddening is that most of us try to do the right thing and make an effort to recycle at least some of the recyclables that we accumulate by living our modern lifestyles. The recycling system seems to fail to meet our high ideals once our additions to the pile are carted away from our doorsteps.

[octave]

Tyres are used in road surfacing and asphalt. You can also see it in that playground, black springy flooring. Also used in conveyor belts, and apparently, you can make fuel, but I am not sure how much this is done

[octave]

Ah interesting.   30% to 40% of used tyres are used as fuel for cement kilns, industrial boilers and energy recovery systems.

 

Here is a list

 

Fuel (TDF): ~30–45%

Crumb rubber / materials recycling: ~15–30%

Export (often for fuel or reuse): ~20–40%

Stockpiled / unaccounted (varies): remainder

[facthunter]

Cardboard is neither a High Value Product or a bad Pollutant. It could be used as fuel in a Properly designed Furnace,  reclaimed or Mulched. Nev

[octave]

We often go for an evening walk on a walkway over the water  which is made of recycled milk containers. 

 

The walkway at Geelong Adventure Park was constructed using approximately 17,000 kg of recycled plastic, equivalent to 440,000 2-litre plastic milk bottles. This project utilized APR Composites' materials to create a durable, reclaimed infrastructure that keeps waste out of landfills. 

APR Composites +1

Project Details

Location: Geelong Adventure Park

Material Composition: 17,000 kg of recycled plastic (milk bottles) combined with 17,000 kg of reclaimed non-treated timber.

Volume: Reused approximately 440,000 x 2-litre plastic milk bottles. 

APR Composites

Local Recycling Context

Plastic Types: In Geelong, HDPE (High-density polyethylene) milk containers are typically accepted in recycling bins.

Container Deposit Scheme (CDS): Certain milk containers under 1L may be eligible for the Victorian Container Deposit Scheme, though guidelines can vary based on the specific material (paper vs. plastic). 

 

[octave]

https://tyrecycle.com.au/what-we-do/the-process/

[octave]

I remember this from 1979 fuel crisis.

 

 

[octave]

Actually meant to post the above fuel ad in the fuel crisis thread.

Edited 4 hours ago by octave