Keep your Theist/Atheist arguments here

[nomadpete]

One-track, thank you for sharing your beliefs with us.

It doesn't fit with my view of a believable universe. But I respect your choice.

[old man emu]

Yep. I'll fight to the death for your Right to your beliefs, but don't expect me to join you in them.

 

[old man emu]

I watched an interesting documentary on Sunday night. Its subject was the Exodus and was there any archaeological evidence for it. It is accepted that the Egyptians were meticulous record keepers, so there should be records of things equivalent to the plagues and the drowning of Pharaoh's army. Given these disasters, there should also be records of economic turmoil after Exodus.

 

It is the prevailing belief that the Exodus occurred during the reign of Ramesses ll around 1250 BC(E) in the 19th Dynasty. However, no records of these events or expected results exist from that time. The documentary suggests that the biblical reference to Ramesses  is not meant to be an accurate reporting of who the pharaoh was, but simply a pointer to a location, as in "over there near the Jones' place". The Bible confirms that the Israelites were to build “supply cities, Pithom and Ramses, for Pharaoh.” However excavations of the place known in biblical times as Ramses, have uncovered an earlier city beneath it.

 

That city shows signs of rapid abandonment towards the end of the 13th Dynasty (around 1640 BC(E)). The pharaoh at that time was Sobekhotep IV. Other cities in Egypt, known to be occupied mainly by "People from the East" also show abandonment at that time. There is much archaeological evidence coming to light that parallels the history of the Israelites as recorded in the Bible. Even the biblical story of the capture of Jericho is reflected in the archaeology of the site. The conclusion to be drawn from the archaeology is that what is recorded in the bible is supportable historical fact in relation to the Exodus. 

 

After the Exodus, the bible moves onto a bit of theological turf when it deals with the handing down of the Ten Commandments. But consider Moses' logic. He has just removed the Israelites from a polytheistic society. He believes in mono-theism, so he sets down some rules that would stifle poly-theism. Next he has a society to organise and keep the peace, so he sets down rules that he hopes will limit the typical causes of conflict in a community. Then to convince the people that they have to live by these rules, he tells them that they were given to him by the god who made their Exodus possible.

 

The Isrealites go on to establish themselves in the Holy Lands, and live a relatively peaceful life unto around 580 BC(E) when the Babylonians march them off into slavery. During  that post-Exodus period, the Israelite religion evolves and gets all the spiritual trappings that many modern people classify has fairy tails and hokum. 

[spacesailor]

Which Bible ?

The English King James bible.

spacesailor

[Bruce Tuncks]

Onetrack, there are a few books by Dawkins which explain your difficulty with evolution theory. " River out of Eden " is just one.

Evolution explains a lot of things. Like how come our eyes are so badly "designed " that the wiring is on the inside where it interferes with the receptors.

And OME, I find the most amazing thing about the old Egyptians to be that they never sought the source of the Nile. They could have sent an army to do this but never did...  why not?

[old man emu]

3 hours ago, spacesailor said:

Which Bible

Actually the Jewish Torah, the Koran, and the Christian bible in its many evolutions.

 

1 hour ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

I find the most amazing thing about the old Egyptians to be that they never sought the source of the Nile. They could have sent an army to do this but never did...  why not?

You raise an intriguing point.

 

The Ancient Egyptian civilisation spanned about 3000 years before it became absorbed into the Mediterranean civilisations. For a civilisation that lasted that long, it does seem to have had little interest in expanding outside the Nile valley. In ancient times, Upper Egypt extended from the Nile Delta to the first cataract near Aswan. Further upstream, in what is modern Sudan, the land was later controlled by the Kingdom of Kush. The Kingdom of Kush was an ancient kingdom in Nubia, centred along the Nile Valley in what is now northern Sudan and southern Egypt.

 

Maybe the gods were so kind to the Egyptians and they were satisfied with what the gods had given them, that they did not feel the need for empire building.

 

[Marty_d]

@onetrack, I owe you an apology.

 

My post starting "WT absolute F" was rude and condescending.  You have the absolute right to believe anything you want to, and while I may disagree intensely with the underlying logic, I should have done so far more civilly.

 

Sorry!

 

Marty

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yep, my idea of why they never discovered the source of the Nile is that they didn't want any facts getting in the way of their very profitable religious  notions.

Another related question is how come the ancient Chinese never discovered Australia. Similar answer I think.

[Yenn]

How do you know the Chinese didn't discover Australia.

The Dutch discovered it before the English and decided they didn't want it. Maybe the Chinese did the same.

[old man emu]

Actually the Macassans,  from the port town of Makassar in southern Sulawesi, were frequent visitors to Northern Australia. There are some words in Aboriginal languages of that area that are of Macassan origin. The trade in trepang, between Macassans seafarers and the aborigines of Arnhem Land, to supply the markets of Southern China is the first recorded example of trade between the inhabitants of the Australian continent and their Asian neighbours.

 

Since the Aborigines didn't produce anything that the Chinese would consider as trade goods, then it's probable that the Chinese were not interested in establishing trading posts here.

[pmccarthy]

And they didn't like the flies.

[nomadpete]

It was another marketing failure...

 

Would you like flies with that? They're free!

Edited October 1, 2020 by nomadpete

[Marty_d]

23 hours ago, nomadpete said:

It was another marketing failure...

 

Would you like flies with that? They're free!

I just got that.  

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yep, it was the macassan traders who introduced dingos to Australia, only about 5000 years ago.

They brought them as meat on the hoof, as they lacked refrigeration. Obviously a pair or more escaped.

This would show up in dingo genetics if anybody cared to study the matter.

Interestingly, the Aborigines didn't use them as hunting dogs. They used them as sleep companions, thus starting the term " 3 dog night " . They used to break their legs to stop them running away at night.

[facthunter]

 One thing there's been plenty of for us to develop and evolve is TIME. Everything alive on earth is STILL evolving. I used to be about as religious as anybody gets. Eventually I had to choose whether I could think  or just believe. There's a $#1t load of guilt in most religions but particularly Christianity which sprung up just yesterday  really. Islam a bit later.. Religion causes a lot of pain out there and has many things to answer for. Atheism is not another religion. It's the antithesis of all that stuff. I can be killed for being an atheist in many parts of the world. I don't have to have done anything.. Is THAT OK?  I don't want to KILL anyone.  The right to believe "anything" is dangerous if responsibility and respect of individuals rights and human life isn't part of it.. Nev

[old man emu]

You have to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff when dealing with religion. It would appear, that like it or not, our ancestors wherever they lived came to the conclusion that here were powers greater than themselves. Since they knew that someone in their clan was the best at some task, or another was best at moderating disputes, then the expression of the greater powers they observed must be carried out by beings that they could not see. Thus they created the concept of "spirits" and gave these spirits the same qualities they observed in those around them. There had to be a head spirit and assistant head spirits to share the workload. There were spirits who kept an eye on all human activities. And there were the nasty spirits.

 

It is only normal that if you find yourself in a weakened position you ask for help from a stronger being. If your battle is with the unknown forces of Nature, then you have to go to the spirit world for help.

 

Over time, mankind developed rules to ensure that at least day-to-day life carried on without conflict. There had to be people in the clan who knew the rules and could pass them on to the next generation.  Eventually these rules were imagined to be gifts of the spirits, and those who knew the rules were the ones who maintained contact with the spirits. From there you get the idea of someone organising religious practices and carrying them out on behalf of the rest of the clan whose role in the clan might be hunter or weaver, potter or tanner. 

 

So, the rules that Mankind worked out to maintain the peace, became the property of the "priestly" class, who, needing something to do, and to create their own little empires in the tribe, embellished the rules with ceremony. And there you have religion.

[Yenn]

And then there was a class of people who had it all and wanted more so they took over the role of religion and became governors. Then just as with religions there were several of them, so they warred among themselves, or rather they got the masses to war for them.

[Marty_d]

I'm watching "American Gods" at the moment, TV show based on Neil Gaiman's book.  Brilliantly done with Ian McShane as "Mr Wednesday" (ie Odin).

The whole premise is that everyone who came to America brought their beliefs with them, and whenever someone believes in something, that thing becomes real.

 

One amusing scene is at the house of Easter (or to give her her proper name, Oestre) where she's been overrun with hundreds of Jesus's - white, Latino, black, Korean, and every other shade of mankind - because every christian imagines a Jesus that looks like them.

 

Mad Sweeney, the 6' tall leprechaun, is a hoot as well.  

 

I can very much recommend this to anyone who likes dark, thoughtful comedy, violence, old Cadillacs and sex.

[nomadpete]

And via which media does this gem come to us?

[facthunter]

I thought they went to America to escape from religious oppression.  Nev

[nomadpete]

Religious Oppression works both ways.

 

Some people are oppressed because of their particular flavour of religious belief.

Others oppress anybody who isn't in their religious group.

 

The most discriminated group is the atheist group - all the religions discriminate against atheists.

 

[old man emu]

4 hours ago, nomadpete said:

all the religions discriminate against atheists.

And vicky-versa

[Bruce Tuncks]

" Religion poisons everything" says Hitchins in his book " god is not great" which I recommend.

He has  details I didn't know, like how virgin birth was the common way for a god to enter this world. He gives lots of examples which predate the virgin Mary story. Resurrections were quite common too.

One of the best bits of the bible I thought was the bit where Jesus said " let he who is without sin cast the first stone", Alas, it appears to have been put in at a later date. 

Not that it made sense when you think about it... how would you ever empanel a jury for example...

[Bruce Tuncks]

The puritans at least did not go to the US to escape persecution. They went there to set up a place where they would be free to do the persecuting themselves.

Read the trial of Spencer the farmhand for an example of somebody persecuted.

[nomadpete]

23 minutes ago, old man emu said:

And vicky-versa

OME, I object to that remark.

I know many atheists. I categorise only one of them as being 'evangelical athiest'. Even I avoid him. The rest prefer to keep to themselves. They generally avoid discussing religion unless asked. They also avoid attempting to 'convert' others (there isn't anything to be gained by that), and those that I've met definitely don't discriminate against religious believers.