Our European Friends

[Jerry_Atrick]

https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/europe-blocks-250-000-astrazeneca-doses-bound-for-australia-20210305-p577z3.html

 

So, Italy, using new EU laws intoruduced to try and remediate the bungling of the EU in securing vaccine supplies, has blocked 250k vaccine doses manufactured by Astrazenca and bound for Autralia. In the big scheme of things, it is not that big a deal - in fact - I would argue it is symbolic..

 

Yes, Australia has been able to manage its COVID threats far better than the EU and the UK (I was talking to a recruiter in Brisbane today who gave me the low-down and jeez - the world could learn a thing or two about Aus's approach given everyone in the western world is hiding behind the excuse that it was a situation they have never experienced before - nor had Australia!)... Yes, it is not going to make that much difference to either country in therms of the time to roll out.. So, it does seem symboplic - and as the impact is low - it is a horribly wrong symbol - maybe on of almost Trumptasic proportions...

 

Astrazeneca are under a lot of pressure because they are favouring their contractual obligations over those of the EU pressure they had been receiving to fast track supplies to the laggards in the EU.. So, you can bet your bottom dollar that AstraZeneca would not have planned to send the doses to Australia ahead of the EU unless they were contractually obliged to. So, unless blocking the vaccine delivery to Australia (or anywhere esle) was agreed to by Australia, it is not much short of a bertrayal of Australia. Yes, you can argue that it is a minor issue because it is a small amount of doses - and - well - Australia has done well and is not what anyone could say vulnerable (in a relative sense, anyway).

 

But that is my point - this small gensture of symbolism is totally wrong as a result - if they are willing to forgo the rule of law to make a gesture rather than an impact, what else are they willing to do? They original stouch with Brtiain was an own goal - one hoped not symptomatic of a culture, but a stuff-up. The regime that holds itself up to a pedestal as a beacon of due process and the law seems to be showing its true colours..

[Bruce Tuncks]

I feel sorry for Italy in other ways though. When Gaddafi was running Libya,  there was no people smuggling. Now there are thousands making their way from africa to europe and  Italy via Libya is the shortest way for many of them.

But it was well said about the vaccine, so thanks Jerry.

[onetrack]

Personally, I'm not heartbroken about the blockage of the vaccine coming to Australia - I feel that Europe is such a basket case as regards the handling of, and casualties from the virus, they're in more need of it, anyway.

 

I also think that there's still a lot of lingering belief here, that a vaccine rushed onto the market in such a short time, may have some hidden side effects that may not show up for some time - and as result, a lot of people here are happy enough to do without the vaccine for a while, until the full results are in.

 

In rural Australia, where I deal with, and travel to, a fair amount, life goes on much as normal, and the virus has had virtually zero effect, as regards casualties. I certainly can't say that for Italy, where the casualties are just enormous.

[old man emu]

Life in the suburbs of Sydney has generally been as normal. It's probably Melbourne that has suffered the most inconvenience. I suppose we were saved because of the years of convict transportation that planted in our social conscience the idea of reliance on the Government to tell us how to behave. A sort of give and take arrangement where, if we behaved the way Government wanted us to, the Government would look after us. The idea seems to have broken down in the past twenty years as younger people refuse to act for the good of society, but only for themselves.   

[octave]

16 minutes ago, old man emu said:

The idea seems to have broken down in the past twenty years as younger people refuse to act for the good of society, but only for themselves. 

 

This is certainly not my experience.  I find younger people much more aware and socially active than many of the older people I know.    My wife is involved in a local group  that works on local environmental and social issues.  There seems to be a mix of mainly younger people and  some quite old people.   I guess it may be a matter of who you know.   My wife and I are both 59 and  more and more we find our friend base getting younger.   These are bright enthusiastic well educated people.  I certainly couldn't be more proud of my son partly for being successful but more for giving back in time and money, as do many of his peers.   I do remember being a little disappointed in my father when we were discussing environmental problems that his response was that he understood the problems but he felt that as he wouldn't be there he had no interest in participating in any of the solutions.   You can find selfish people in any generation but it is a matter of whether these people represent the whole of their generation be it young or old.

 

As I have said before I have worked with young people most of my working life as well as teaching young people.   I have always found the majority of these people to be impressive.  Perhaps I have been lucky with the younger people I mix with as well as my own offspring.  It would be interesting to know if there is any evidence that "young people refuse to act for the good of society" 

 

Millennials Are Effecting Change With Social Responsibility

 

 

[willedoo]

I totally agree with octave. I think some people dwell on the bad minority which distracts from the fact that the majority are good. In many ways, the younger generations have a better report card than us Boomers. When all is said and done, we're not the best example to look up to. I think the young ones have done good overall.

[Yenn]

Obviously Italy and all the rest of Europe need the vaccine more than we do. But there was money put into its developement by Australia and the associated delivery of vaccines to Australia. If we accept that Italy needs it more and allow them to break a contract, it will allow them to open their borders to tourism that would have come to Australia. We should not allow ourselves to be betrayed in a contract just because a country that stuffed up its response to a threat,wants to benefit at our expanse.

[red750]

Victoria has suffered more than other states because Chairman Dan has stuffed up repeatedly, implemented a state of emergency which he extended to the end of 2021 with the aid of the Greens, and used a sledgehammer to crack a peanut - 19 cases in quarantine or their families and he claps a stage 4 lockdown on the entire state, metro and regions. He can now pull that stunt whenever the whim takes him.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I reckon Octave has worked with the best of the young people. I did too once, where we went for 20 years without an accident among the student population.

But Octave, there are lots of bad and stupid young out there. As are there lots of bad  and stupid oldies.

[octave]

1 minute ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

But Octave, there are lots of bad and stupid young out there. As are there lots of bad  and stupid oldies.

 Yes there are a certain number of both.   I suspect that stupid young people eventually become stupid old people.  Every generation foolishly believes that they are the last good generation.  

[Jerry_Atrick]

On the subject of the young, they are largely a product of who brings (or neglects to bring) them up, despite the external stimuli they receive (or are bombarded with) on a day to day basis. It would stand to reason, then, that is the young are bad today, they are a product of the bad of yesterday. The evidence is that nature has as much, if not more influence than nurture - nature comes from the parent and nurture from the people whom bring/neglect to bring up children - usually the parents. There are of course exceptions, where the wiring of the child's brain goes awry (either negatively or positively), but you get the idea.

 

Back to topic, Australia has done very well with respect to controlling the disease, despite the hiccup in Victoria. And given the CSL will be manufacturing some 30m doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine, on a prioritistion of health impact, Australia really doesn't need it as much as Italy and the rest of the EU, who despite implementing strict lockdowns, had seen the disease flourish. I think we all get that, and at the end of the day we are a global community and the leaders of the global community should start acting like we are one. And that is my point.. A unilateral re-appropriation is not acting like a global community in it together to fight the pandemic. The EU is all about process and the first to call out countries within and outside the EU that break the law.. almost like a broken record.

 

But we now have that same instituion enact a law that allows them to effectively arbitrarily reappriopriate vaccines if they feel like it; of course, it would be political suicide to do it except in extenuating circumstances. So, they assert that they are therefore allowed under the law to appropriate supplies of thje vaccine in contravention to wess established contract and various other law to meet their ends and cover up their ineptitude. They have enacted a law that allows them to circumvent the rule of law... Hmmm, not very neighbourly... and a regime that is prepared to break the rule of law; the very same regime that holds a very high bar to countries in terms of respecting the rule of law.

 

As it turns out, there was a country who has the virus under control and has ordered the vaccine, so they used that as jusitification - to break the rule of law. This is symbolically a bad thing. Yes, we can argue that people dying in a very good justification - of course we can. But in the same way we criticse Trump for his lack of diplomacy and respect of due protocol, the EU have done exactly the same thing. It was lucky Australia had ordered 500k shots of the vaccine and that it has extremely low rates of the disease - and that it does have are usually on new arrivals into the country.

 

However, how would Italy and the EU acted should Australia had a problem with the disease, but not as bad as the EU? Say, they had a 75% case rate of the EU, but because the population is much less, the headline numbers were less. Or even the same % of cases, but much lower headline numbers because the of the population difference? Would Italy and the EU have acted in the same way? It ispure speculation, but given the headline numbers would have shown the EU losing more people  or even Italy with double the population of Australia, having twice the nuber of cases (assuming both had the same % of cases), well, surely that would be justification, right? That's why this is bad...

 

The EU used Trump diplomacy.. I am 100% certain if they put in a call to ScoMo, he probably would have agreed that Italy can have there 240,000 - or even the lot... And, it ouwld have been win win for both countries. Would it have impacted Australia that much? Maybe, but probably not and there is definitely justification to allow it. Would it have made the EU look like the responsible people who back the rule of law and seet an example of how diplomacy works.

 

In isolation it is not a big deal, but in symbolism it is..

[Old Koreelah]

22 hours ago, old man emu said:

... The idea seems to have broken down in the past twenty years as younger people refuse to act for the good of society, but only for themselves.   

Give the young’uns a break, OME... I suspect anti-social rule-breaking is just as prevalent in all age groups.

 

And another thing; just because a person is old, doesn’t mean they are deserving of reverence as an elder.

Remember that some of them were noxious, sponging bludgers not so long ago.

 

Going further, I’m starting to feel uncomfortable with the many perks of being of the post-work generation: cheaper fares, rego, medicine... when kids are paying full cost. 

Most old farts have had a good life during the full employment era, have paid off mortgages and a reliable retirement income.

[old man emu]

While I was working and paying taxes, that money was going to support members of previous generations, currently unemployed  persons, those unable to work due to illness or disability and so on. I don't begrudge paying tax for those uses, especially when I see the aid my parents got in return for Dad's military service, and also Mum and Dad worked and paid taxes to support the same uses of government money.

 

Accessing Social Security benefits is like queueing to go on a bus. You get on the back of the queue at some point in your life and as time passes you move closer and closer to the front of the queue where you are able to receive those benefits. It is a truth that it is unfair of the government to deny those benefits to people who were able to accumulate nest eggs during their working lives. Especially when one considers that Tom with the nest egg paid as much tax as Harry without, but the government took a few eggs from Tom's nest along the way.

[red750]

Many people think that retirees are sittng back on a huge nest-egg having difficulty deciding what to spend it on. That's not necessarily the case, and not through any failure to try and provide. My "nest-egg" lasted about four years, I've been retired for ten and a half. When I started work in 1961, there was no such thing as superannuation, Paul Keating introduced that in 1993, at 3%. Prior to that, I contributed to a voluntary scheme, also at 3%.

 

When I was retrenched, CentreLink (or its equivalent in 1991) said I was not entitled to the dole because my wife earned $1.30 per fortnight more than the cut-off. I worked through a number of temp agencies, getting short term jobs (some less than a day) when possible, for more than a year. To cover the cost of living, and educate 3 kids, CentreLink said I had to draw down what I had saved, as it was voluntary contributions and not preserved. When I was able to finally get a full time job, it was at a wage about 60% of what I had previously earned.I was forced to retire after 8 years, so had very little opportunity to accumulate what I had been forced to draw down, let alone build a nest-egg. That's why I rely entirely on the pension to live on, and struggle to make ends meet. There are certainly no luxuries. Haven't been in a cinema this century, haven't had a holiday since 2012 when the kids got together and shouted the wife and I to a trip on the Spirit of Tasmania. The car is so close to tossing it in, I am not game to travel anywhere I can't get public transport to get home. The government's $250 stimulus payment this week will partly cover the electricity and gas bills.

[spacesailor]

red750

Thats Why it,s called the

POVERTY pension! .

PP

For short,  Pixx Poor,  pension, l would like the Government pensions linked to it, as dreams go, any increase wil be the same for Both pensions.

Laugh out loud.  lf that will happen.

spacesailor

[old man emu]

Yep, that stimulus payment will go to the energy suppliers and the phone mob, and maybe a few bucks for the third party insurance. Not enough left over for petrol to get out the the viewing area at the airport to watch the plovers and magpies.

[red750]

Haven't been near an airport for over two years.

[old man emu]

2 hours ago, red750 said:

Haven't been near an airport for over two years.

Most haven't changed, but the main metropolitan secondary ones now have warehouses encroaching on the runways.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Well, I got the AstraZenica jab today... Was slighly worried as I have a sever allergy to pennicilin and sulphate based anti-biotics... The Doc said, well, if anything is going to happen, it will happen within a minute or two.. So far, so good... had it 3 hours ago.. Will expect headaches and flu tonight - all going well.. A neighbour was knocked out for 2 weeks, though someone I know had no side effects whatsoever..

 

I was asked not to drive for 15 minutes afterwards and only take paracetemol for any symptom  relief..

 

Will have to wait 12 weeks for the next jab, assuming stocks aren't depleted. The EU is threatening to block supplies again... Even though they put the distribution of AZ vaccines in doubt. Pfizer suggested they don't do that, because specific proteins for their vaccine are made in Liverpool and the last thing they need is a tit-for-tat dispute... Although, I sincerely dount Britain would engage - they will want to show the world they are reliable trade partners.

 

Hope those that want a jab get it soon..

 

 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2021 by Jerry_Atrick

[spacesailor]

WELL

Iv,e lost my oldest brotherinlaw to that virus.

He went into hospital with liver or kidney infection, they fixed that up, then he caught the virus when in the hospital.

After thee days they put him into a ' pallative ' care ward, three days later we get the sad news, after they took him off the oxygen! .

spacesailor

[Jerry_Atrick]

So sorry to hear that, Spacey. The travesty here is so many need not have died here.. Sincere Condolences to your family.

 

 

[octave]

12 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Well, I got the AstraZenica jab today...

 

Convaxulations,    keep us informed on your side effects if any.    My son who is a New Zealander is in the US at the moment and was able to get the Pfizer vax within 24 hours of arriving.  It was not a problem even though he is only visiting although I think to qualify he may of suggested that he was a smoker, he does not and hasn't ever smoked.    

[Yenn]

Why would you not get the jab. We are told that there were 37 cases of blood clots from 17000000 jabs. Not bad odds. If you think one in 459000 is poor odds would you have a cataract operation or undergo general anaesthesia? You certainly would not drive on the roads in Qld.

[Jerry_Atrick]

I am in no way an anti-vaxxer; I had apprehension beause the literature provided by the guvmint said one shouldn't get the jab if one has severe allergies. I happen to have a severe allergy to pennicilin and suphated based anti-bitotics. A single dose will kill me.. They arranged for the doc to inject me so that if I showed any reaction, at least some trained to that level could deal with me.. I can't say I wasn't nervous getting it... but as the vaccine did not use any mould based substances, it was the sulphates that were the concern. As it transpires, not a problem - and I do wonderif they have given me a placebo because at the moment, 19 hours afterwards, no side-effects - except for the odd twinge where they stuck the needle in, but it is near a dodgy tendon, anyway. They do say the heavy arm usually comes within a couple of days..

 

So, touch wood, no side-effects here... In fact, if anything, I had a voracious appetite last night.. .Ended up making Wagyu beef burders with the lot and pineapple, washed down with a single glass of Aussie red...

 

 

[onetrack]

My missus has a senior nurse as a friend, and she reports that a serious number of the nurses that have been vaccinated here, have had some really bad reactions - right down to seizures.

She reckons the authorities are keeping Mum about any of these serious side-effects because they just don't want anything to stop the rollout of the vaccine. I won't be lining up in a hurry to get the vaccine.