The climate change debate continues.

[nomadpete]

6 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

Logic goes out the window with you guys. There was no electric system before we had coal power. It was a nation building technology. The grid was built around it. Hydro and gas were just icing on the cake.

Logic dictates that we should move with the times.

 

A long time ago, burning coal was a great step forward.

 

Times change and new less toxic methods of making energy are developed.

 

No need to stay locked into the old era of the industrial revolution, powered by burning fossil fuels.

 

Every system has its drawbacks, and its solutions.

 

Let go of the old. Move on.

Edited Sunday at 10:38 AM by nomadpete

[Marty_d]

"roads were made for horse and cart, but now you want to ditch them for these newfangled automobiles... It'll never work..."

[Siso]

15 hours ago, nomadpete said:

Energy industry is not a level playing field. Just look at the financial assistance we taxpayers presently give to the coal industry. It would be fair play if our governments (all brands) simply stopped subsidising coal. But failing that, alternatives need some subsidy to level the financial playing field.

 

I asked A.I. and this is what it said about subsidies:

 

"Yes, coal mining in Australia receives government subsidies, with federal and state assistance totaling $16.3 billion in 2025–26,......"

More details please

[Siso]

9 hours ago, Marty_d said:

"roads were made for horse and cart, but now you want to ditch them for these newfangled automobiles... It'll never work..."

we went cars, they were faster , used a more energy dense fuel. We had coal/gas, now we are going back to less energy dense fuel. We will see what happens, unfortunately!

[Siso]

Even with all the doom and gloom an Frances NP, still smashing power into its neighbors. Germany not so much.

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

8 hours ago, Siso said:

More details please

 

And there's more....

 

8 hours ago, Siso said:

we went cars, they were faster , used a more energy dense fuel. We had coal/gas, now we are going back to less energy dense fuel. We will see what happens, unfortunately!

But we are now replacing with a much more abundant supply where technology is allowing the dense storage of that fuel. 

 

8 hours ago, Siso said:

Even with all the doom and gloom an Frances NP, still smashing power into its neighbors. Germany not so much.

That is because Germany shut a significant chunk of its energy generation capacity sans transitioning out. That is going to create a gap. Other countries, such as the UK effed up their markets politically, not because of renewables. Today the UK produces enough from wind alone to power the country.. 

 

Australia, using solar is now producing an excess supply so it is giving it away... It's not the fuels for generation - it is how it is managed. 

[pmccarthy]

Absolute rot! Wind alone? What have you been reading?

[Marty_d]

Now that's commitment.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-08-11/eltham-pilot-turned-baker-quit-flying-for-climate-change-vic/106945332

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Marty_d

[facthunter]

I feel the same way about the fuel I burnt. Nev

[nomadpete]

2 hours ago, Marty_d said:

Now that's commitment.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-08-11/eltham-pilot-turned-baker-quit-flying-for-climate-change-vic/106945332

 

 

 

 

 

Confused....

 

Why was this baker 'flying for climate change' ?

 

And why did he stop that?

 

 

 

Edited 10 hours ago by nomadpete

[facthunter]

Read it again. Maybe?   Some People care about the state of the world. Nev

[Siso]

The fuel tax credit scheme isn't just to coal. Windfarms get it as well as farming on their offroad diesel. AS far as the capacity of wind in England, you can have as much capacity as you want but it is no good if you can't use it. Sux if you still need to pay for it though. https://lumifyenergy.com/blog/curtailment-costs-scotland/ Is this what the CIS does?  SA is in the same boat. The government is just stating to admit 82% by 2030 is a pipedream. Could have told them that years ago. https://wattclarity.com.au/articles/2026/08/07aug-trouble-with-82percent/  Wattclarity is a good site for the state of Australia's electricity system

 

Has any country got close to net 0 and/or has affordable electricity delivered to the consumer using mainly wind and solar. Our price of electricity is comparable to France and they have finished the transition and make money from exporting electricity int country's next door. We are half way there with mainly just replacing generation, now we need to do the storage and the transmission which is going to make the second half exponentially more expensive. France is just starting the rebuilding phase now after 50 years. Finland have cheaper power and are now a net exporter of electricity since their new reactor opened.

 

AI Overview

 

 

 

The launch of the Olkiluoto 3 nuclear reactor in April 2023 helped Finnish wholesale electricity spot prices drop over 75%, falling from a peak of €245.98 per MWh in December 2022 down to around €60.55 per MWh. Production costs for nuclear generation itself historically run low (under €50/MWh). [1, 2, 3, 4]

 

France only exporting about 8GW today, the least amount I have seen. The snip below shows the advantage of NP, hydro or both in net 0 (electrictymaps.com)

 

I know, you've all heard it before, reminds of the $275 off our bills.😁

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Siso

[facthunter]

France was one is the first to go nuclear and did a good Job of it. That was then. This is NOW. Water is in short supply in most parts of the world.. Anyone who thinks the world climate ISN'T changing is a smaller and smaller minority by the day. Fossil fuels are now unreliable and cause Wars Predictably.  Nev

[Siso]

They are talking dry cooling thermal plants now if they are away from the sea. Little bit less efficient but who cares in a nuclear plant as the fuel is so cheap/MWh. Fossil fuels are unreliable because they have been demonised and maintenance is deferred. (maybe fairly) Not many wars happening in Australia.

[facthunter]

Give working examples please. the Wars happening now affect Australia.  They don't have to be IN Australia  You are sounding sillier with each reply. .Nev

[nomadpete]

2 hours ago, Siso said:

They are talking dry cooling thermal plants now if they are away from the sea. Little bit less efficient but who cares

Back when folks were worried about pollution and water shortages, US coal and nuclear power companies toyed with air cooling instead of water cooling. The use of air reduced the power station outputs. Especially during heat waves. The idea was largely ditched due to that loss of efficiency. Same here in Australia. Although, more recently, Kogan Creek thermal power station uses air cooling. Water is not plentiful out west.

[nomadpete]

One problem with coal/gas/nuclear power stations is the fact that steam is not an efficient medium.

 

Newer methods are avoiding steam.

 

Yes, we really do need to build large scale energy storage. My constant complaint is that modern grubmints are afraid to invest in infrastructure such as that.

[nomadpete]

Back to climate change. Whilst refreshing my memory about water cooling in power stations, I came across this little gem....

 

"water temperature is directly correlated with air temperature, with recent studies such as a 2024 research paper by Jiang Sun et al. showing a clear warming trend, as demonstrated for central Europe’s Oder (Odra) river basin. The warming rate differs per location, varying from 0.229°C to 0.720°C per decade,"

 

It seems that although climate change is only happening in little numbers of degrees, it matters. The above quote is in relation to power stations having to throttle their outputs during hot days, due to cooling water temperatures rising. 

 

Rounding their numbers to 0.5 degrees per decade, that is an alarming rate of temperature rise.

 

It's not much of a problem for wind turbines. 

[nomadpete]

Just checked on Kogan Creek water consumption.

Remember, it is air cooled. Its website reports 0.08 megalitres per GWh of generation.

 

It is a single turbine 700Mw generator.

 

0.08 x .7 x 24 = 1.344 Megalitres per DAY.

 

 

 

I seem to recall Tarong PS (Kingaroy) was using around 85 megalitres per day.

 

Water is a real problem for all steam generators.