The climate change debate continues.

[nomadpete]

I remind you that the Brisbane pumped hydo has been running for about 45 years. it has two turbines capable of 600Mw with online ability in seconds.

 

Maintenance costs are a fraction of other generator types as there are no burners, fuel delivery or storage, no waste or boilers or turbines.

 

There must be plenty of other locations suitable for more plant like this.

 

I suspect that Snowy was more of a political than sensible decision.

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 02:06 AM by nomadpete

[facthunter]

They ran into terrible rock formations that were unexpected with the Snowy site. It's there for energy  Storage and available at short Notice. There's Plenty of suitable sites all along the East Coast of Australia with no need at all to use salt water.  You use the water over and over. Nev

[Siso]

If they are so good(and I love pumped hydro) Why aren't they building more. Ireland has one that fills up at night with coal and then runs with coal during the day. That runs well. Turlogh hill I think. You are right there are other spots around the east coast of Australia, doesn't do the rest of us much good. You think they would have had some geologists and engineers that would have allowed for hitting rock when boring through a mountain in the initial price. I think they under quoted so they could get started and then slug the government more money later on. bet that has never been done before!! Same ting is happening with a lot of transmission projects

 

https://www.afr.com/policy/energy-and-climate/transgrid-inflated-cost-of-running-power-line-underground-farmers-20230718-p5dp2o

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-03-01/energy-transmission-project-billion-blowout/104983108

 

 

 

[nomadpete]

1 minute ago, Siso said:

Why aren't they building more.

My cynical suspicion is the same reason that Australian infrastructure  always lags behind the needs of the populace. There are no votes in infrastructure that won't be finished before the next election. Combine that with the desperate attempts to avoid the opposition labelling it "overspending", and winning the next election.

 

This applies to highways, railways, public transport, hospitals, power and water. etc, etc.

 

Maybe also, the public has learned to expect that even after all these years of practice, governments still can't write a decent contract that doesn't allow for endless cost blowouts.

[octave]

11 minutes ago, Siso said:

Why aren't they building more

If you are referring to the whole world, well, they are building more.

 

• Globally, pumped hydro has ~200 GW of installed capacity
• That represents the vast majority (over 90%) of long-duration energy storage
• Dozens of new projects are still being built each year

So while individual schemes are large and relatively few compared to, say, solar farms, they are widespread and globally significant.

---

📍 Where are they?

🇨🇳 China (world leader)

• Largest total capacity (~50+ GW)
• Massive new projects like Fengning (one of the world’s biggest)
• Hundreds more under construction

👉 China uses pumped hydro heavily to stabilise its huge wind and solar buildout.

---

🇯🇵 Japan

• ~20+ GW installed
• One of the earliest adopters
• Built to balance nuclear and now renewables

---

🇺🇸 United States

• ~16–17 GW installed
• Famous example: Bath County (often called the “world’s largest battery”)

---

🇪🇺 Europe (widely distributed)

• Major countries: Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Spain
• Example: Germany has multiple plants used for grid balancing
• Scotland hosts many of the UK’s biggest schemes

---

🇦🇺 Australia

• Existing:
  • Shoalhaven scheme (NSW)
  • Tasmanian hydro system
• Major new build:
  • Snowy 2.0 (huge expansion project)

 

---

🌎 Other notable regions

• South America – Brazil and Chile expanding capacity
• India – growing fast to support solar
• Africa – early-stage development (e.g., South Africa)

---

👍 Are they successful?

Short answer: Yes—very successful, but with caveats

✅ Strengths

1. Proven and reliable

• Technology has been used for 50+ years
• Extremely well understood and dependable

2. Grid stabilisation

• Acts like a giant battery:
  • Stores excess power
  • Releases it when needed

3. Long lifespan

• Often lasts 50–100 years (much longer than batteries)

4. Scale

• Can store huge amounts of energy (hours to days)

---

⚠️ Limitations

1. Geography matters

• Needs suitable elevation and water
• Not every location works economically

2. High upfront cost

• Big civil engineering projects (tunnels, dams)

3. Long build times

• Projects like Snowy 2.0 take years and can face delays

4. Environmental concerns

• Land use, water impacts, and community opposition

---

🤔 Big-picture takeaway

• Pumped hydro is not new or experimental—it’s the backbone of global energy storage.
• It’s especially valuable as countries add more wind and solar.
• While batteries are growing fast, pumped hydro still dominates for large-scale, long-duration storage.

🌍 How much is being built?

• Around 100+ GW of pumped hydro is already under construction globally
• The total development pipeline is enormous (~600 GW)
• Annual additions are rising and could double to ~16.5 GW per year by 2030

👉 That’s not a niche build-out—that’s a major global infrastructure push.

---

📍 Where is the construction happening?

🇨🇳 China (dominates the boom)

• By far the biggest builder
• 200+ GW under construction alone
• Adding multiple large plants every year

👉 China is essentially treating pumped hydro as core grid infrastructure for renewables.

---

🇮🇳 India & Asia-Pacific

• Rapid expansion to support solar growth
• New multi-GW projects announced (e.g. Maharashtra schemes)
• Strong growth across Asia-Pacific generally

---

🇪🇺 Europe

• Lots of medium-sized projects and upgrades
• Example:
  • New plant in Norway (Illvatn) under construction
  • Hybrid wind + pumped hydro projects (e.g. Crete)

👉 Europe is modernising older hydro + adding storage rather than building mega-dams.

---

🇺🇸 United States

• Several projects in development:
  • Example: Seminoe (900 MW)
• Many more proposed—potential to more than double capacity

---

🇦🇺 Australia (your backyard)

• Active pipeline:
  • Kidston (QLD) nearing completion
  • Snowy 2.0 under construction
  • Multiple NSW & QLD proposals

⚠️ But:

• Some projects have been delayed or cancelled due to cost blowouts or geology issues (e.g. Pioneer-Burdekin)

---

🌎 Other regions

• Spain: dozens of projects progressing (25 advancing in 2025 alone)
• Africa: early but accelerating growth
• South America: Chile & Brazil expanding

---

📈 Why the sudden surge?

This is the key shift:

👉 Wind and solar are now cheap—but intermittent
👉 Grids need long-duration storage (hours to days)

Pumped hydro is:

• Proven
• Long-lasting (50–100 years)
• Scalable to huge sizes

That’s why it’s having what’s been described as a “renaissance” in energy systems

Reality check (it’s not all smooth)

Even though many are being built:

✔ What’s going well

• Strong government backing
• Clear role in renewable grids
• Massive scale possible

✖ What’s slowing things down

• Long build times (often 7–10 years)
• Cost overruns (common in big civil projects)
• Environmental approvals
• Site-specific risks (geology can kill projects)

 

 

[kgwilson]

In 2017 the ANU identified 22,000 potential pumped hydro sites In Australia.

 

https://arena.gov.au/assets/2018/10/ANU-STORES-An-Atlas-of-Pumped-Hydro-Energy-Storage-The-Complete-Atlas.pdf

 

So despite our flat geography there are 22,000 potential batteries for the huge amount of solar energy we are generating from rooftops and solar farms right now.

 

These are the current projects.

 

Numerous pumped hydro schemes are in development along Australia's east coast, driven by NSW and Queensland's transition to renewables, with key projects including Snowy 2.0 (2,200 MW, NSW), Borumba (2,000 MW, QLD), Pioneer-Burdekin (5,000 MW, QLD), and Phoenix (810 MW, NSW). These projects, targeting completion between 2025–2035, aim to provide large-scale, long-duration storage to firm wind and solar capacity. 

Key Queensland Projects

• Borumba Pumped Hydro (2,000 MW/48,000 MWh): Located near Gympie, slated for 2030 completion.
• Pioneer-Burdekin Pumped Hydro (up to 5,000 MW): Proposed near Mackay, touted as a massive long-duration storage project for 2032–2035.
• Kidston Pumped Storage (250 MW/2,000 MWh): Currently in development, expected in 2025.
• Mt Rawdon Pumped Hydro (2,000 MW): Planned for the early 2030s. 

Key New South Wales Projects

• Snowy 2.0 (2,200 MW/350,000 MWh): Connecting Tantangara and Talbingo reservoirs, expected fully operational by 2028-2029.
• Phoenix Pumped Hydro (810 MW): Located near Mudgee within the Central-West Orana REZ, expected 2029.
• Western Sydney Pumped Hydro (700 MW): Located at Lake Burragorang, currently deemed critical infrastructure.
• Oven Mountain Pumped Hydro (900 MW): Scheduled for 2030.
• Muswellbrook and Dungowan: Regional projects aiming for 2027-2029 completion. 

Strategic Regional Potential

• Mine Conversions: Research indicates significant potential to convert retired mines, such as the Coppabella Mine or pits near the old Liddell Power Station, into pumped hydro sites.
• Existing Reservoirs: Potential exists to upgrade existing infrastructure like Lake Lyell, Windamere, and Burrendong dams. 

These projects are often located in renewable energy zones (REZs) to pair with solar and wind, or near high-voltage transmission lines to support grid stability

 

 

Edited yesterday at 06:41 AM by kgwilson

[Siso]

Specifically talking Australia.  Yep, remember when that report came out. Pumped hydro also has a round trip efficiency of about 80% which is pretty good.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Re nuclear, We have oodles of solar, wind, and wave... 

 

Re cost blowouts.. well, I wouldn't worry - I have never worked on a nuclear plant that didn't have one, and Hinkley Point C, in 2016 prices is going fro an original £18bn to £35bn in 2016 money (about £46bn in today's money). 

 

According to Google AI, Australian industry is moving to solar:

 

Again, you can stick to old ways of doing things and hamstring us with high costs. Well done. Making Austalia Competitive Again (MACA).. Maybe that is all we will be able to afford to eat - MACCAs

 

When I first entered the nuclear industry - now 30 years ago, I was all for Australia getting coasstal nuclear power stations. The renewable technology was not really there yet and it made a lot more sense that staying with coal - especially since we bloody well own the resources needed to run the darned thiungs. 

 

But we also have abundant sources of renewable energy and the technology has progressed immensly since then. Nuclear is, for Australia, the new fossil fuel. 

 

Even in the UK, where the sun is variable at best, wind is being used as is solar. Rooftop solar, before the Iran war, was steadily pickung up and the government ar debatign about whether to make it mandatory for new build properties. 

Edited yesterday at 07:15 AM by Jerry_Atrick

[Siso]

Australian industry is moving overseas! Bell bay smelter is closing down by the looks of it.Solar is high cost when you look past the generating electricity part.

[facthunter]

You couldn't be more Negative. Bell Bay is In Tassy which is Mostly Hydro and the Plant is probably Obsolete. Nev

[pmccarthy]

Tasmania has always needed supplementary fossil fuel to supplement hydro power availability for the Bell Bay smelter, which uses about 25% of Tasmania’s power. Hydro is at capacity without new dams, which are unlikely to be built. The Basslink interconnector now smooths out supply. If the smelter closes Tasmania should not need any fossil fuel.

[Siso]

Not being negative, just being realistic. Australia is/has become a quarry and I am concerned for my kids and grandkids future. Recently did a course with some workers from Bell Bay. All were in their early 20's, I wander how they are feeling! Build a new plant. We need some industry. Exporting our carbon emissions overseas is not good for Australia prosperity or the worlds carbons emmisions anyway. Far better to do some value adding here economically or environmentally even if it does mean keeping our coal for longer. Even if intermittents are going to work, we aren't ready for them and jumping the gun is costing us. 

[facthunter]

So you Keep saying. but are we Jumping the gun (Not a very scientific saying) or Being slow on the Uptake and held up by the NO People and Coal worshippers with THEIR Vested Interests.?  Nev

[facthunter]

Albanese is attempting to do Just what you ask for. Value add and be More self sufficient. Address Balance of trade.. Nev 

[facthunter]

 Smelters should Near where Castings are done, but the Major Part of the energy is in the Smelting. Being a smallish island adds cost to everything done in Tassie. Nev

[nomadpete]

4 hours ago, Siso said:

Even if intermittents are going to work, we aren't ready for them and jumping the gun is costing us

I like the rest of your post, except for this bit.

 

I think you are not allowing for the rapidly rising number of households that are what you call 'jumping the gun'. My solar and battery do all the smoothing needed for my intermittent solar.

 

It has hardly stopped raining for a fortnight, and my battery dropped down to 80%. That is, nil from the grid in that time.

 

A lot of people (finances permitting) are not waiting for the government to solve the problem.

[facthunter]

Any extra solar and storage Helps everyone.  Don't listen to the Nay sayers on this one. Nev

[Siso]

2 hours ago, nomadpete said:

I like the rest of your post, except for this bit.

 

I think you are not allowing for the rapidly rising number of households that are what you call 'jumping the gun'. My solar and battery do all the smoothing needed for my intermittent solar.

 

It has hardly stopped raining for a fortnight, and my battery dropped down to 80%. That is, nil from the grid in that time.

 

A lot of people (finances permitting) are not waiting for the government to solve the problem.

Yep all good for domestic, thinking about getting a battery myself. The problem is we are taking people off to fund the grid. This will be industry and people that can't afford the solar and batterys or afford the house to put them on. We need to look at the bigger picture as we can't do without a grid.. Yes I am being hypercritical with a battery purchase.

[facthunter]

Get one IF you want to. It helps to stabilise the grid for everybody. Rapid response is critical and battery is the best The amount of storage you get for the Money spent is not much. It won't do Much if there's an extended Power interruption. I don't see that feature as a Prime one.. Near Lightning or Voltage spikes will Knock it around and May require to be reset. Mine is not sorted yet. Nev

[octave]

18 minutes ago, Siso said:

Yep all good for domestic, thinking about getting a battery myself. The problem is we are taking people off to fund the grid. This will be industry and people that can't afford the solar and batterys or afford the house to put them on. We need to look at the bigger picture as we can't do without a grid..

I understand that point, but it assumes the way we generate and distribute electricity can’t evolve.

The old model—large central power stations feeding passive consumers—is already changing. The grid is becoming more dynamic, with energy coming from multiple sources. Households like mine don’t just draw from the grid—we also contribute to it. Over time, things like microgrids or suburb-level battery sharing could become part of that evolution.

There’s also an energy security angle. A system that relies less on a few large power stations and more on distributed generation is generally more resilient—failures are less likely to cause widespread outages.

Since installing my system, I’ve generated about 36 MWh of electricity. If that had come from coal, it would have required roughly 15–18 tonnes. That’s a significant amount of fuel avoided, even at the household level.

I do recognise the tension: I still rely on the grid, and without a battery I’m exporting a lot of energy. But that just reinforces the point—the grid needs to adapt to a two-way flow of energy rather than a one-way model.

In my case, I haven’t installed a battery yet because my usage is low and the payback period was around 20+ years. That said, batteries offer other benefits like backup during outages and helping stabilise the grid.

My next step will likely be an EV with vehicle-to-load (V2L). That effectively gives me a battery I can use to store excess solar and provide backup power. More advanced options like V2H or V2G are still expensive, but even V2L starts to shift the model.

I accept that this kind of change may disrupt traditional generators and retailers—but that’s not unusual. Energy systems have always evolved, and this is just the next stage.

[red750]

The decision to build lots of multi storey residential units will put a strain on things - not a lot of rooftop space to handle 10 to 15 levels of home units.

[octave]

27 minutes ago, red750 said:

he decision to build lots of multi storey residential units will put a strain on things - not a lot of rooftop space to handle 10 to 15 levels of home units.

In Europe, they are now doing what is called balconnny solar. It's pretty much plug and play, and renters can take it with them if they move. There are also other schemes, such as solar sharing schemes.  These are in their infancy; however, but they are evolving as technology improves.

 

 

 

Solar systems for apartment buildings

 

 

Community Solar Banks Program

The Australian Government’s Community Solar Banks Program is supporting the installation of shared solar and clean energy technology in apartment buildings and other multi-unit dwellings.

The government’s investment will provide shared solar systems and help to lower electricity costs for up to 25,000 households.

Shared community solar banks help households who can’t install their own systems. This will allow more households to benefit from renewable energy, including people who:

• rent their homes
• live in apartments
• can't afford to install their own system.

The Australian Government is partnering with states and territories to deliver the program.

To find out what support is available in your state or territory and how to apply, visit the Community Solar Banks Program page .

 

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by octave

[Jerry_Atrick]

1 hour ago, Siso said:

Yep all good for domestic, thinking about getting a battery myself. The problem is we are taking people off to fund the grid. This will be industry and people that can't afford the solar and batterys or afford the house to put them on. We need to look at the bigger picture as we can't do without a grid.. Yes I am being hypercritical with a battery purchase.

Lots of aluminium smelters running of renewables  - mainly hydro. But, here some that are all or part running off solar. Many of those that are currently part solar, are looking to expand solar capacity.. Except for the Alcoa plant in Portland, where they are looking to go offshore wind. 

 

Energy is one function of the issues with Bell Bay. They are basically a small smelter with similar operating costs - power being the most variable. They ae suffering economies of scale issues and whilst power proces are one thing - and significant, they are just a small fish in a sea of bigger fish.

[kgwilson]

When i moved to my new property I installed a new solar array & a battery. Total cost after subsidies. $11,600.00. I have charged my EV exclusively from the solar supplemented by the battery when solar generation falls below 7kW. I am now a VPP (virtual power plant) & buy & sell energy on the wholesale market. Also for doing this I am getting another $675.00 rebate. The company I am with charges $25.00 a month to manage my system. I was getting 2.7c/kWh & now I get much more as I sell what is in the battery when the price rises during peak demand. The sun is almost gone today & the export price is 19C/kWh so my battery is exporting. This will stop when I begin using power for cooking etc.

 

My battery is usually full by 10am & unless I have the EV charging my solar production is constrained so i don't export at a negative value. The software they have is called Smartshift & it manages the Inverter. I have been a wholesaler for only a few weeks but I am well in credit after paying the monthly fee.

 

My original payback was 5-6 years & now with my EV costing zero to run & the ability to export only when the spot price is hign, that has reduced to 2-3 years

Edited 2 hours ago by kgwilson

[Siso]

3 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Lots of aluminium smelters running of renewables  - mainly hydro. But, here some that are all or part running off solar. Many of those that are currently part solar, are looking to expand solar capacity.. Except for the Alcoa plant in Portland, where they are looking to go offshore wind

I should have specified intermittents. Hydro is pretty well base load if managed well. Has good heavy stuff turning with synchronous generators. As I understand some pumped hydro uses inverters so they get the varispeed/load for pumping operations. need to be confirmed. Offshore wind is very expensive, still is intermittent. 

 

1 hour ago, octave said:

Households like mine don’t just draw from the grid—we also contribute to it.

Contribute to the grid by supplying power to it but don't really contribute to the cost of it if you export enough to cover off what you draw. Someone has to pay for it and unfortunately that will be people who can't afford it, renters and industry. The grid is getting larger as well that needs to built and maintained by these people.

 

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

It helps to stabilise the grid for everybody.

Inverters don't contribute to the grid. See Spain april 2025. from what I understand was caused by solar inverters playing up at a solar farm. I know you won't believe me! Will try to find some links. grid scale grid forming inverters haven't really been tested. They are installed at Broken Hill but weren't commissioned at the time of their blackout. Would have been a real good test since their GT's hadn't been maintained and were unreliable. They may have been able to run the town on solar and batterys.