nomadpete Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 I was just pointing out that the turbine/pipe/tap combination doesn't have a hammerng problem, even though it can be varied rather quickly considering the mass of the water rushing down a 2mtr diameter pipe. Its been doing just fine every day ever since it was built, back in 1980. I'd hazard a guess that the engineering has allowed for most of the potential problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 If it's idling and you are opening it up you wouldn't have. I had a Mate worked in Sydneys Water Board or whatever it was called way back and if you shut down other than very gently you blow water mains very well. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Octave, just to touch on one of your points,The cost of poles and wires and the grid. Some 25 years ago I read a very detailed report about cost vs capital expenditures of the US electrical grid. (I tried to wade through the stats but got the executive summary). Bearing in mind the capitalist model is all about the bottom line (ie profit), they conclude that a grid operating at optimum will provide power to consumers most of the time and that outages (blackouts) occur just below the consumer outrage level. If there are no blackouts, it shows that there is too much money being spent on infrastructure and maintenance. Australins have been spoilt. They expect the power to always be available 100% of the time. Critics label this as "gold plating". I think it is actually providing an expected service to the public. Grid infrastructure cost started sharp rises when, apart from usual population growth, the public rushed out to buy air conditioners and lots of electrical toys for the home. No surprise that the power infrastructure had to grow to provide . Everyone complains about the cost but ignore the simple fact that that all of us actually use heaps more electricity than ever before. Heaps more peak power required with the arrival of air conditioners requiring fat networks to provide just for peaks! Aluminium refiners pay very low prices so they can be shut down when total demand approaches or exceeds supply - but they don't like it. Is the national party getting money from the refiners? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomadpete Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 I am very suspicious of the refinery deals. They have contracted for very high reliability of supply, but don't seem keen to reveal how much they pay. I do recall back in Joh"s day, the Qld gov't was trying to get another alumina refinery going (1980"s) and back then all the power stations were gov't owned. We had to refurbish the out of date Bulimba and Tennyson power stations on the Brisbane River, at a cost of millions to be able to promise enough power, and even then we forecast domestic load shedding to consumers in winter, if it went ahead. We did hear that the power was going to be supplied at cost. Luckily it didn't go ahead. Totally crooked in my opinion as consumers would have been out of pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 I believe Al. refineries need very reliable supply. In WWII the Nazis sent agents to cripple American Aluminium production by blowing up a few key electricity pylons. It was one of their better plans; before power could be restored, the molten metal would have solidified in the pots, requiring months of demolition work to clean up. Fortunately for us, a couple of the saboteurs had divided loyalties and turned the rest in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomadpete Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 If power is lost for 2hrs, they throw away the pot and its contents. And the arc electrodes -they'll be stuck in the metal. So they told me at Gladstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 According to the report on Baseload Power Coal is declared a dinosaur. It has had no effect on the government or right wingers wanting new coal fired power stations built. "Technology has moved on from base load, and now you want flexible power. And that's what demand management, batteries and pumped hydro is," says Professor Andrew Blakers, director of the ANU Centre for Sustainable Energy Systems. "If you have an increase in demand, a coal power station will take hours [to meet it], a gas turbine 20 to 30 minutes, batteries about a second, demand management about a second, and pumped hydro will take anywhere between 20 seconds and two minutes." In the past because coal fired stations had to keep running even if there was no demand the power price went negative so they paid customers to take the power. Researchers say a combination of these rapid response, dynamic power sources is the future of power generation. What about when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow? "All this talk about 'you've got to have baseload power stations' is complete nonsense," says Dr Mark Diesendorf. "It's a dinosaur." His team at the University of New South Wales ran "thousands of computer simulations" correlating hourly power-consumption data from the National Electricity Market (NEM) in 2010, with the potential power generation of renewables, based on recorded weather data for the same year. He claims that a combination of existing technologies, including hydro and biofuelled gas turbines, were able to supply the simulated NEM even during "peak demand" — on winter evenings following overcast days. "No single one does all the job... You probably need a mix of hydro, which may include off-river pumped hydro, and possibly open-cycle-gas turbines," he says. "Pumped hydro is 100-year-old technology, completely off the shelf, and importantly you can get these pumped-hydro sites built before 2022," he says. "A recent study that we published shows that there's about 22,000 [potential] pumped-hydro sites on the east coast. We only need 20 or 30 of them." The latest report just released on Monday highlights the governments folly. Its title is How government inaction fuelled Australia's renewable energy boom. Check out the report at the link below How government inaction fuelled the renewables boom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 I understand Tomago has a defined max outage in the agreement for super cheap electricity otherwise it Al solidifies and is scrap. Same with any electric furnace.. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Subsidies, blackouts and rising energy prices, but it isn't renewables who are the culprits - the story of aluminium smelting in Australia - The AIM Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomadpete Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 An aside bit of info regarding infrastructure costs driving the consumer prices up: When delivering electricity, it is very important to keep the current in phase with the voltage. A problem arises if they are out of phase - because the consumed power is less than the actual supplied power. This is why we specify power in KVA rather than in watts. (In theory they are the same if there is no phase lag). The problem occurs when the load is reactive. Electric motors are a reactive load. Air conditioners and heat pump hot water systems use motors to heat or cool. Old fashioned heaters are a pure resistance load (which used to stabilise phase issues). The massive uptake of aircon has created a need for massive electronic phase correctors. There have been many of these large multi million dollar devices installed in substations over the last 10 years. They are about the size of a suburban house lot. Of course this cost is added to the consumers bill. It is NOT gold plating the grid,, it is essential to keep it working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted July 20, 2018 Author Share Posted July 20, 2018 Phases go over my head, but it's an interesting bit of trivia that Japan, that icon of efficiency and good design, somehow ended up with 50hz east of the mountains, and 60hz west of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomadpete Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 I'd put Japan's 50/60 Hz mains down as an example of parochial bureaucracy not unlike our multi gauge railways. I tried to explain the power factor correction as it has been a rather expensive exercise to correct and the public has not been made aware that power usage has changed so much that we have had to spend a lot of money to adapt the system to meet the demands of society's changing lifestyle expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 I can't understand the terminology of "inverter" air-conditioners, Twelve volt DC, can be "inverted" to 240 volt AC, so how do 240v air-conditioners work, when they Don't "invert" ?. spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 Non inverter AC provides a fix heating or cooling by a fixed power with the compressor running at a fixed speed. The compressor has to start and stop when required. On the other hand inverter aircon have a controllable compressor that provides the exact amount of heating and cooling as needed. Inverter Aircon VS Non Inverter Aircon - E Home Services www.ehomeservices.com.sg › articles › i... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storchy neil Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 question how long will the solar panels last in years ? at what stage will you replace the wind turbines ? how old is the youngest coal fired power station ? how old is the oldest coal fired power station ? the panels on my roof have a ten year life span so will have to renew them that is 12 new panels so its ok for me to get 713 cents back to grid 2009 I was paying 13 cents kwh coal today I am paying 36 cents kwh renewable my mate was charged for 500 meters of underground power $ 20,000 pluss he had to buy the new meter and pay his electrician $2600 to connect coal is the cheapest no they go and pay for the most expensive crap that will have to be replaced in around ten years neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 question how long will the solar panels last in years ? Neil my personal experience relates to my stand-alone system which I installed in 1990 and sold the property last year with panels still performing well. My experience is similar to the information I have posted and linked to below, but don't take my word for it, do your own research. "The majority of manufacturers offer the 25-year standard solar panel warranty, which means that power output should not be less than 80% of rated power after 25 years." source The Real Lifespan of Solar Panels - Energy Informative [ATTACH]49454._xfImport[/ATTACH] at what stage will you replace the wind turbines ? Here is an old one! World’s oldest operating wind turbine turning 40 I believe the design life is 20-25 years Here is the story of the decommissioning of a 20-year-old wind farm in Canada. Decommissioning Canada’s oldest wind farm the panels on my roof have a ten year life span so will have to renew them that is 12 new panels Are your panels failing somehow? Has their output reduced and by how much? I 2009 I was paying 13 cents kwh coal today I am paying 36 cents kwh renewable Nope. You seemed very keen to quote the ACCC report on power pricing before. 41% of the increase is network costs. Renewables not to blame for rising power costs: ACCC boss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Here you go Neil. Bluescope Steel are not known to be a bunch of greenies, but even they can see the writing on the wall. Australia's largest steelmaker Bluescope turns to solar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Here you go Neil. Bluescope Steel are not known to be a bunch of greenies, but even they can see the writing on the wall. Australia's largest steelmaker Bluescope turns to solar Also Sanjeev Gupta: Coal power is no longer cheaper – and we'll prove it Renewables will replace ageing coal plants at lowest cost, Aemo says Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 It's getting so only the deliberately blind cannot see. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted August 7, 2018 Author Share Posted August 7, 2018 It's so encouraging to know our country is in such caring and capable hands: Reefgate part two: the plot (and the water) thickens, starring Brenda the Antifa Penguin | First Dog on the Moon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 You've got to wonder what went through their heads. As well as the actuality of giving that much money with no oversight or recommendation to a group of businessmen with 6 staff (for which they need $22 million to administer the rest of the windfall - that's only about $4million per person...) - it's the LOOK of the thing that stinks. And that's what counts in politics. Turnbull has just handed Shorten a very large baseball bat to wield against his scone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomadpete Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 That's frightening! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 It's got to the stage where the average person now knows you can trust practically No One to do the right thing by you, if left unchecked.. If there's money about they just can't keep their rotten hands off it. White collar crime is the BIG type of crime and they have the wherewithal to bribe their way out of it. AND tell you how great they are at the same time.. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted August 8, 2018 Author Share Posted August 8, 2018 The old story: steal a few dollars and go to gaol; steal millions and you're a great leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 The old story: steal a few dollars and go to gaol; steal millions and you're a great leader. Sometimes - I hear Malaysia's ex-PM is facing serious prison time for his huge theft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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