Electric Cars - the discussion continues.

[nomadpete]

My biggest grip (yeah that belong in another thread) is the disconnect between manufacturers and dealer service.

I have had numerous brushes with dealer service charging for service items that were never changed, and grossly over quoting for work. They lie to avoid doing warranty work on known problems. And then they seem to accept they have to spend buckets of money to convince buyers to come back to them.

 

They aren't called stealerships for nothing.

[kgwilson]

The only reason modern ICE engines are efficient and run smoothly is that they are electronically controlled at every stage from turning the key to shutdown. The process is very complex requiring valves and high pressure air and liquid functions, vacuums, pumps, servo motors etc and multiple sensors to make sure everything is functioning the way it should. An EV is much simpler though new things have been introduced like regenerative braking. Electronics control everything else in modern ICE & EV vehicles that is not related to the cars motivation, even door handles these days. Normal air conditioning systems are now giving way to more efficient heat pump systems.

 

You name it and it is controlled electrically or electronically. Motor Mechanics are now a rare breed. Motor Vehicle service outfits now call their people "Technicians". Most have little knowledge of how to fix anything or even how electronics work. They use diagnostic tools that they do not understand to determine where a fault lies and the only thing they can do is replace the module or component if the diagnostic screen says it has a fault.

 

I get my 2012 Mitsubishi serviced at the NRMA service centre. I noticed (about a year ago) a whine in the engine bay. After looking and using a long screwdriver as a stethoscope I figured out it was an idler bearing on the main waterpump/aircon compressor grooved belt. I asked them to check it out. I got told that it was the bearing on the aircon compressor clutch & they would have to replace the compressor at approx $3,000.00. I rechecked & still thought it was an idler bearing. I took it to an old school aircon service bloke. I opened the bonnet & he listened, told me to turn the aircon on & off a couple of times & said "Nothin wrong with that". If it was the clutch bearing there'd be a tone difference when flicking the aircon switch he said & I went on my way. No charge.

 

For interest sake I checked on replacing an aircon compressor clutch bearing. It is a bit tricky but not hard. The clutch is removed from the compressor & the bearing pressed out & a new one pressed in. The compressor does not even have to be removed so re-gassing is not required. Bearing cost about $15.00.

 

Good electronics engineers are what is needed in future, in fact right now. There are still mechanical functions and mechanics will also be required but they seem to have dumbed them down to just pulling something off and putting a new one on.

[onetrack]

Kenya is heading into the battery-swap modus operandi for their electric motorcycle revolution. I was surprised to find that Kenya is 95% powered by renewable energy.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-27/battery-swapping-electric-motorcycles-in-kenya/101811270

[Jerry_Atrick]

Here is a video from someone I feel is more or less independent. Interesting how the numbers stack up:

 

[onetrack]

His figures are suss and completely biased, because he simply loves that Tesla. He hasn't included the financing costs into the Tesla overall costs, which would be a huge amount, as the actual cost of the Tesla is much more than a regular IC car.

He constantly compares the Tesla to high-tech, hugely expensive European cars such as BMW's. No-one on a regular budget buys Beemers or Mercs, they're expensive toys for the extremely wealthy - as this bloke obviously is.

 

The home charging setup cost, is another additional cost that many EV car owners wouldn't take into account, when buying an EV.

Then there's costs associated with getting everything fixed by Tesla, and only being able to get Tesla parts from Tesla. At least with my Toyotas, I have a choice of genuine or aftermarket parts.

It's only recently that some GM dealerships in the U.S. have been given permission to fix Teslas. I'd love to see how the average parking bingle or the "dent from carelessness", costs on a Tesla.

 

The fact that Tesla totally control all the software updates, options, on-the-go fixes, and can even block you from using certain things on the car, is not something I'd ascribe to.

The bloke is obviously a technology geek and loves anything with a screen and wireless connections. I don't see that as any advantage at all, in fact I believe it's a disadvantage, because so much control resides in faceless Tesla operatives - a bit like how Facebook and Google love to control everything we do, and manipulate us in the most devious and hidden manner - all to benefit them, and them alone.

 

I'll stick with my IC dinosaurs for a few years yet, until I see which way the wind vane is pointing.

Possibly the main thing that will turn us IC dinosaurs away from what we know and love, is the fact that parts will become less available and more costly for our dinosaurs at some point in the next 10-15 years. Already, a number of transmission manufacturers to the automotive industry, are having to dismantle production lines for transmissions.

[facthunter]

Then you're controlled by the oil giants. The electric  NETWORK can't control private solar and storage. Think what kind of an Oasis you could build in the centre of Australia, with a bit of imagination. and good planning.  The real estate would cost nothing.

   Infernal combustion engines are self destructive and wasteful. Nev

[nomadpete]

The reciprocating internal combustion engine was dreamt up as a fascinating engineering toy. I am amazed that it's use has become so widely adopted. It's actual operation is illogical and wasteful, energy wise. Who would have thought it sensible to accelerate a piston to high speed, only to suddenly stop it's travel and then push it back up again? 

 

About time the boffins started developing something better.

[facthunter]

The stopping and starting does not use all the energy that is ascribed to it. It is easy to make and seal a round hole. Sewage pumps work the same way. 3 cylinder double acting triple expansion steam engines go back a long way but steam is less efficient again the IC is. Nev

[kgwilson]

With electronics it is easy to control updates etc because it is all driven with software. I don't blame Tesla for controlling updates. This is normal practice from any manufacturer of integrated circuit controlled devices. Tesla is just trying to protect its products from pirates. 

 

Apple is the most protective of all technology giants. You cannot access IOS & they have built in redundancy forcing users to upgrade, you continue to pay for services via their iTunes locked in process and iOS does not integrate with any Android features. Even sending a text is different and you cannot send texts to a group unless they are all iOS devices.. They have had to build in software to access Google Maps as their own Mapping software didn't work. Android as we know is Open Source. Interestingly Apple has a cult following & still outsells Android devices in the US despite their outrageous cost.

 

I suspect Tesla will follow this model for some time yet.

[onetrack]

And this model is the arrogant, corporate, controlling, abusive and unfair model, as used by John Deere and many other manufacturers. Many farmers are now angry in that JD refuse to let them repair their JD tractors, because the software operating the tractors is "JD-patented".

Therefore the farmers are obliged to only use certified JD technicians and use genuine JD parts and components - and the farmers are not allowed to modify their tractors in any way, or disobey the JD demands, or JD will then refuse to honour tractor warranties. I believe the JD boycott can even extend to a refusal to supply parts for tractors where the software has been accessed by "unauthorised people".

 

This attitude has made so many farmers angry, as they wish to modify or repair their JD tractors - either for their own specific purposes, or because they live so far from JD dealerships, it takes ages for them to procure a JD dealership repairman. As many farmers have said, "I bought this tractor, I own it, so I should have the right to do what I want, with it!"

 

This attitude of JD is heading to the courts for resolution, from what I can see. It's no different to the car manufacturers a few years ago, refusing to release repair information to car owners.

In the event of a prang, the car owners were being forced to transport their damaged cars to dealerships from body repair shops, simply because the body repair shops couldn't access electronics or repair methods, due to the manufacturers denying them access to the information or systems.

 

It went to court in the U.S. and the car owners (and insurance companies, who were also wearing a massive increase in repair costs) won, and the manufacturers were forced to release repair information and systems information, so the body shops (and owners) could access the necessary technical information for repair - or even modification.

 

We are rapidly heading into a brave new world where we are cheerfully giving up controls and freedoms over what we should rightfully own and control, to faceless corporate operators - who, in most cases, are totally uncontactable, and who are totally domineering, and who will effectively place you under an unfair boycott, that effectively excludes you from "society", without even a second glance.

 

But the world is full of suckers who are happy to give up what they should rightfully own and control, simply because of their desire to have the latest technology.

[spacesailor]

" The electric  NETWORK can't control private solar and storage. " .

Ooops

The network has now the capability to switch off your roof solar and make you use their grid power . ( by way of smart meters ).

spacesailor

[kgwilson]

7 hours ago, spacesailor said:

" The electric  NETWORK can't control private solar and storage. " .

Ooops

The network has now the capability to switch off your roof solar and make you use their grid power . ( by way of smart meters ).

spacesailor

Not if you are completely off grid.

[facthunter]

You don't have to be off grid either. You can put solar panels anywhere as long as you don't want a feed in tariff.   Nev

[octave]

9 hours ago, spacesailor said:

The network has now the capability to switch off your roof solar and make you use their grid power . ( by way of smart meters ).

 

We have discussed this issue before.  Switching off rooftop solar (curtailment) is not some plot to make you buy from the grid, it is a necessity.  You cannot put more electricity into the grid than is being used. This is the same for large wind farms solar and coal or gas. Just because the owner of the solar panels has a product for sale it does not mean there is always a buyer.

 

I know in some locations (WA I think) curtailment happens more often but certainly in my case it is reasonably rare and as my system has never been fully shutdown.  This issue will increase as more people get solar but will be mitigated as more people get home batteries.   Curtailment is not something that happens for days at a time, it is hours or minutes.  A relatively small battery would suffice but certainly for me at this stage this would not be economically justified given the tiny amount of curtailment.

 

My December electricity bill?   $9.78.   

[gareth lacey]

My November refund was $308 , dec,jan,feb are the lowest refund months , usually about $150, but prices have risen so exspecting less

 

[onetrack]

Since installing our grid-connected 6.6Kw solar system (replacing a 10 yr old 1.5Kw system), our power bills have decreased sharply and our solar generation output has absolutely rocketed.

But we seem to get less and less for our solar power with every passing month. It's down to 2.75c per Kw/H at present, with a payment of 10c per Kw/H between 3:00PM and 9:00PM.

 

But we don't get much solar power generation after about 6:30PM, the sun is too low by then. Sundown is around 7:30PM. Our last power bill for the 60 day billing period, was $30.

I have no idea how often our solar power is curtailed by our smart meter, and I don't even know if we can find out. But we use all the high power items such as the washing machine/iron/vacuum cleaner when we're generating maximum solar power, so we reduce the amount of power we take from the grid.

[spacesailor]

IF you Don't buy from them after having your solar switched off.

were O were , do you get you power from . or are you allowed to switch off the grid & go " stand alone " .

spacesailor

 

[octave]

My understanding is that the proposed curtailing is only for new systems. Older systems are not affected in WA at least.

 

Remote Rooftop Solar Power Management For WA’s SWIS

Systems Already Installed *Not* Impacted

Perhaps trying to head off any knee-jerk reaction to the idea of remote disconnection/curtailment – such as occurred in South Australia when the concept was floated – Energy Policy WA is quick to point out Western Australians with solar systems already installed will not be impacted by the changes.

WA rolls out new rules to manage booming rooftop solar sector

"The state government said the changes will apply to those installing a new rooftop solar system 5 kW or less, and to those upgrading an existing rooftop solar system to 5 kW or under from 14 February 2022. They will also apply to those customers adding a battery, with the solar inverter remaining 5 kW or under.  The mechanism is to only be used as a “last resort” measure when demand for electricity reaches a critically low level and could affect the stability of the SWIS."

It does pay to shop around although I suspect that in a state where there is a large surplus of solar generation that  the FIT would reflect that.  With my retailer I get 8 cents per Kwh up to a maximum of 10kwh. Any thing over this is 5 cents.   Power I use from the grid is charged at 24 cents Kwh.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[octave]

11 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

IF you Don't buy from them after having your solar switched off.

were O were , do you get you power from . or are you allowed to switch off the grid & go " stand alone " .

spacesailor

 

It rarely happens and when it does it is for a small amount of time.   This will be avoided as the grid is upgraded and more storage options come online.  Many people over react thinking that their solar will be a white elephant.   

 

This is from a study into the in WA.

 

https://cosmosmagazine.com/technology/energy/rooftop-solar-curtailment/

 

"The financial revenue loss due to the studied modes of curtailment were small for an average energy user (less than $5 per year). On the other hand, the most impacted site’s revenue loss was calculated to be around $40 per year, based on average tariff assumptions. These losses may also result in potential revenue loss for VPP aggregators."

 

 

 

[kgwilson]

If you are connected to the grid then the retailer is not compelled to take the excess generation from your rooftop solar if the system is at the limit of what it can absorb. If there is nowhere for the power to go you will not get anything for what you are generating. But you are never compelled to pay for grid power if you are producing sufficient of your own to run your household. What you generate goes through your inverter to run the fridge, washing machine & every other electrically driven device in your home before it gets to the smart meter for you to on sell to the retailer.

 

So No, no-one other than you can switch off your solar generation system. The retailer may not take the excess you produce but that has nothing to do with compelling you to use the system except if you need more that you are producing. This is where the installation of batteries becomes an attractive option.

[facthunter]

Ther's a big safety aspect of having any "private' (your own) electricity (including standby diesel etc added to your  house if it's connected to the grid. If you are stand alone it's your business but as the cost of being connected to the grid is only about $300 it's not much to pay for that service. It's less than you'd pay to rent oxy acetylene bottles. WHEN you need the power determines it's cost. Anything of a part time availability is not being utilised except for high use periods and COSTS much more.  Nev

[onetrack]

I've got a vacant industrial block in a country town only 130kms NNE of Perth - but it has no power (or water) connected.

 

The power is connected to the adjacent industrial block, and the main (3 phase) powerline runs along the bottom street at the T-junction, which is only about 50M away.

 

However - if I want to put on power to the property, I have to submit a detailed proposal - which includes a list of all the electrical machines I might want to use - and give the local power authority $1500 just to look at my proposal, and come back with a cost figure, to put the power on to the property.

However, if they come back with a $10,000 or $20,000 price to install the powerline (quite likely), and I don't like their price, and don't go ahead with it - I lose the $1500, it's non-refundable!!

 

This is a ripoff on a breathtaking scale, IMO - and I'm thinking I'd be far better served to install my own power setup, which would then probably cost no more than getting grid power supplied - and I would then be largely free of any ongoing costs for grid power - which currently stands at a monthly supply charge fee, plus a power useage fee.

 

The only thing stopping me at present is the fact that I really need 3 phase power, and installing a stand-alone 3 phase power setup, isn't going to be cheap.

[kgwilson]

A farmer friend of mine went through the process about 10 years ago. The cost to get power to his new house & sheds was over 30k so he invested in solar & batteries plus a backup diesel generator which cost him less than connecting to the grid. He has no gas at all & runs his large property with several large freezers & everything else that a modern house requires from his solar installation. He has not yet had to run the generator because of lack of capacity of his system. He just fires it up a couple of times a year to make sure everything is still working.

[facthunter]

3Phase power to an Industrial block is essential. You're lucky it's available. Nev

[Old Koreelah]

6 hours ago, facthunter said:

3Phase power to an Industrial block is essential. You're lucky it's available. Nev

During the recent Real Estate insanity, all the blocks of a nearby subdivision sold- even the rice padi! A year or two later, after they’ve discovered the cost of connecting mains power, a couple are back on the market.