Is our 2 party system just a con?

[Jerry_Atrick]

7 hours ago, Siso said:

Not really productive, people saying that and calling people things like "perilous pauline" and what ever people call Trump reminds me of how Sky news talk about people. So some are no better than the people, organisations they dispise.

Oh, well let's see that the MAGA Master of name calling does: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nicknames_used_by_Donald_Trump

 

Yet the minute someone offends his sensibilities, he is on the line to defamation lawyers. Now, who else has been on the line to defamation lawyers when people call her names? 

 

I reserve the right to bag anyone I think is not doing the right thing - that is a cherished right of freedom of speech... But I won't bag them without at least there being evidence to do so, unlike others aforementioned. 

 

 

@Siso - We all get your argument - she is playing within the rules so bag the pollies for not changing the rules and not the ones playing within the rules. If life were that black and white, it would be a better place. But the reality she and her ilk have resources and access to disproportionately bend the wilingness of the rule makers to their aims and objectives and they are not afraid to use it. 

 

Yep - she employs a lot of people, directly and indirectly. But she couldn't without all the other infrastructure that is in place from roads to education to provide those people she emplys. Yet, she is not willing to pay for it. When proposal for rule chnages are made to even up the playing field, she is in there pulling no stops to make sure those rules don't see the light of day, let alone get passed. So, too are her ilk; Palmer comes to mind, but all the faceless corporation heavyweights - ironically those owned by foreign investors.. The one thing is at least Gina's companies are Aussie owned. 

 

You can sit through the "well, she is playing by the rules, so blame the pollies as they can change the rules." Yes, in theory, but the backlash Gina and her ilk can unleash means pollies are very well constrained in what they can do. And the billionaires aren't the only ones. We had the BLF, and today we have the CMFEU (or whatever); Good ol' Jacinta Allan seems to be in their back pocket. Hard for her to change the rules to be more fair when her sponsors (and in her case, her husband) are calling shots behind the curtain. 

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 08:16 AM by Jerry_Atrick

[Jerry_Atrick]

But, it is OK to bag, but I also prefer to offer some solutions. 

 

This has previously been discussed on these forums. but a couple from memory:

• Ban political donations more than a de minimis amount from one controlling person/group (to make it hard to create 100 cmpanies and each of them contribute a seaparate donation to the limit). Maybe restrict it to living people rather than corporations.
• I would personally advocate a ban on lobbying groups and companies. If you have something to say to the government, it can be done through a public forum where everyone gets to hear it and scrutinise it. And contribute to it. 
• If not point 2, ban parliamentarians from lobbying or representing/being emeployed by firms in any official or real capacity that involves communication - directly or indirectly - with the government. Period. No cooling off periods, etc. 
• Aussie media regulator, ACMA, being given real teeth over both mainstream and social media, which must have independence, legally trained/accomplished people adjudicating, where they can impose real consequences/punishment for intentionally misleading the public. Those impacted can appeal through the court systems if they want. Of course, paid advertorials that are clearly labelled as such would be exempt, however, if the publisher reasonably had facts that rebuke such advertorials, then they have to state this prominently either before or after ther advertorial. 
• A new "offence" is intrroduced of high public misconduct (there is a public misconduct charge which is applying a damp wetted to the wrist very softly). For this, the bar should be recklessness in its criminal definition( foresaw the consequences that are likely to happen, didn't want them to happen, but went ahead with the action anyway) or intention. In other words simple incompetence or even negligence do not count. So, unless the polly clearly states the likely outcome of their policy, and it results in an absurd and large cost to Australians and the benefit promised doesn't materialise, they can be held liable, with the punishment being they and their controilling interests (so, for example, not hiding assets with a partner or company or whatever) can be held finalcially responsible (i.e. having to pay what they can back).
• The above offence would automatically include acting on prohibited lobbying. 

 

I am sure I could think of many more things, but I bet with the above, there would be far more transparent and hopefully logical and rational decisions made in the best interests of the country as a whole. 

[pmccarthy]

Digging holes in the ground? Mining today is one of the most high tech activities in industry. Knowing where to dig, how to dig and doing it safely involves all sorts of expertise.

[Siso]

So what we are saying is we need some politicians with balls to think long term about the future of Australia and not just about the next election. So yes our present system is a con. Having said that I would rather it then some of the alternatives.

 

She kind of does pay for it indirectly. Most of these people she employs pay a lot of tax and again at least she is Australian and supports other things. More than would happen if she was an overseas company.

[Siso]

I do think these people and company's do need to pay there fair share of tax though which appears not to be happening.

[nomadpete]

I'm no fan of the backroom influence held by big mining (and esp multinational interests).

 

However, a quick websearch offers up 

Australian mining revenue.

 

 

In the 2022-23 financial year, Australia's mining industry generated a record $455 billion in export revenue. (Aside: just imagine the profits if we turned it into steel).

 

Big dollars indeed. But look at the ratios.

 

Australian mining sector contributes more than half of the country's corporate tax revenue, with the industry paying approximately $65 billion in company tax and royalties for the fiscal year 2023-24. This makes mining the largest taxpayer in Australia, 

 

At risk of oversimplifying, they collectively paid about 14% tax. 

 

I wish I had that tax rate on my pay packets!

[facthunter]

When Poorleen gets in the TAX will be reduced. Gina's not backing her for NOTHING. It's an investment with Guaranteed returns for her IF PHON gets POWER. Nev

[facthunter]

Anyhow the demise of the 2 Party system began in earnest when the Holmes a Court Teals took Blue ribbon seats from the Libs as well as some independent Independents.did. Always remember the Independents are NOT a Party. The COALition was 2 Party's with a secret Arrangement. and a succession of crook Leaders and finally NP Crazies  with no regard for the Future has nearly finished them  off completely by a climate ignoring, pro coal gas and  (Uncosted, UNCLEAR) Nuclear approach proposed to be Funded by the Taxpayers. How could THAT possibly exist as a Conservative Party Policy.?   Nev

[pmccarthy]

5 hours ago, nomadpete said:

I'm no fan of the backroom influence held by big mining (and esp multinational interests).

 

However, a quick websearch offers up 

Australian mining revenue.

 

 

In the 2022-23 financial year, Australia's mining industry generated a record $455 billion in export revenue. (Aside: just imagine the profits if we turned it into steel).

 

Big dollars indeed. But look at the ratios.

 

Australian mining sector contributes more than half of the country's corporate tax revenue, with the industry paying approximately $65 billion in company tax and royalties for the fiscal year 2023-24. This makes mining the largest taxpayer in Australia, 

 

At risk of oversimplifying, they collectively paid about 14% tax. 

 

I wish I had that tax rate on my pay packets!

Tax is pad on profits, not gross sales revenue .

[randomx]

18 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

Digging holes in the ground? Mining today is one of the most high tech activities in industry. Knowing where to dig, how to dig and doing it safely involves all sorts of expertise.

 

We know that, it's just a figure of speech .

Totally missing the point though.

 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

Gina Has experts doing the hard stuff and any employer would Pay the same people Award Wages or whatever they had to, to get People there.  Some of the Overseas  owners have behaved pretty poorly with Restoration agreements avoided. Rigs left to sink and rust. Look at the condition of the MacArthur River in the NT BHP Fly river in PNG and OK TEDI. Plenty of other gross failures to clean up as Promised and contracted to do. Or sell out to some front organisation which goes bankrupt and leaves the AUS taxpayer to Fix.  Fatal mining accidents are on the Increase.  FIFI Cases Many Marriage breakups, It ALL counts and ore bodies don't last forever. Nev

[Siso]

I think we are seeing the same sort of thing with an industrial farm in NSW. more to come.

[nomadpete]

6 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

Tax is pad on profits, not gross sales revenue .

I quoted net profits after tax and all outgoings. 

[red750]

13 hours ago, Siso said:

She kind of does pay for it indirectly. Most of these people she employs pay a lot of tax

By that logic, the CEO's of Coles, Woollies, the banks, Qantas, et al, should pay less tax because their staff pay tax? The tax is in what THEY earn, not their staff.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Whenever we buy most things, we pay tax - GST.. Maybe we should all get PAYE/PAYG tax decreases? Or at least get the same breaks as companies - Other costs such as transport, more formal clothing (regardless of whether it has a logo on it or not), should be able to be deducted? We should be able to contract ourselves out to a no-tax jurisdiction, and charge ourselves a massive amount for our labour out of the tax haven more than we get in our salary to build up the losses, claim that against our salary as a tax deduction and not pay tax at all... 

 

Then we are levelling up the playing field. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 10:41 AM by Jerry_Atrick

[nomadpete]

11 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Whenever we buy most things, we pay tax - GST.. Maybe we should all get PAYE/PAYG tax decreases?

Wasn't that what they promised us?

The GST package was sold to us as part of an overhaul of taxation?

 

Of course there is also the minor detail that "Vote for us - no GST on our watch!" Then as soon as they were elected, their first business was implementing GST.

[Siso]

12 hours ago, red750 said:

By that logic, the CEO's of Coles, Woollies, the banks, Qantas, et al, should pay less tax because their staff pay tax? The tax is in what THEY earn, not their staff.

Fair enough, just pointing out the average miner makes a lot more than the average checkout person so they contribute more tax.

[Siso]

21 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

Wasn't that what they promised us?

The GST package was sold to us as part of an overhaul of taxation?

 

Of course there is also the minor detail that "Vote for us - no GST on our watch!" Then as soon as they were elected, their first business was implementing GST.

Pretty sure Howard did say that initially. He did take the GST to one of the later election during his reign. Remember it well, Its when I became a floating voter. At least he took it to an election. We could mention "there will be no carbon tax under a government I lead" or more recently "Household electricty bills will be $275 cheaper"

[Marty_d]

1 hour ago, Siso said:

Pretty sure Howard did say that initially. He did take the GST to one of the later election during his reign. Remember it well, Its when I became a floating voter. At least he took it to an election. We could mention "there will be no carbon tax under a government I lead" or more recently "Household electricty bills will be $275 cheaper"

You may also remember Tony Abbott's "$100 lamb roasts", and Scummo's "EV's will kill the weekend".

Any hyperbole from politicians should be taken with a grain of salt, as should election promises.

[Siso]

We could go on forever.

[facthunter]

Not if Trump stays around. Nev

[willedoo]

5 hours ago, nomadpete said:

Wasn't that what they promised us?

The GST package was sold to us as part of an overhaul of taxation?

I don't remember whether they said PAYG tax would be decreased or not, someone here might know. The original deal was supposed to do away with certain state taxes like stamp duty, but the states reneged on that crying broke and we ended up with GST and stamp duty. We ended up paying GST on a lot of extra things, but a lot of things previously had the 22% general sales tax rate so it probably balanced out.

[onetrack]

When GST was introduced, the Govt made a huge windfall tax gain from finished goods already in stock, used machinery and parts, used vehicles, and a myriad of other items, that were previously untaxed, when these items were purchased by people who couldn't claim the GST back. That was every consumer. Businesses paid nothing, because they got the GST back, but everyday consumers got shafted again.

[old man emu]

At least we are lucky that GST is only 10%. Ask Jerry what 20% is like. We should resist any thought of increasing the rate. Quite simply, think of the cost of changing pricing ongoods and services due to an increase of any size. 

 

I look upon  10% GST as a tithe by which a secular society supports its government. Coming from Old Testament biblical law, it was originally used to support the Levites (priestly Class) and the poor, but today it is largely viewed as a voluntary act of faith and stewardship, often distinguished from further optional offerings. In a secular society, those optional offerings are called Income Tax.

[willedoo]

I think the states are a lot happier with it. There's still a few arguments over shares and fairness, but they don't have to grovel to Canberra as much as pre GST days.

Edited 6 hours ago by willedoo