Why can't a man be just like a woman?

[Jerry_Atrick]

I agree.. but to state it as fact is bollocks..Of those 130 - probably 20 are seriously liberal democracies..

[old man emu]

1 minute ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

In Eseque v Attorney General (I think) NSW, 2023, the NSW supreme court held that the definition of a term should first take place in the context of the act it is used. 

A very wise and learned response. However " in the context of the act it is used" means that a definition is not immutable, vide The Marriage Act alteration.

[Marty_d]

I just find it amusing that all this is based on Tickle and Giggle.  Sounds like a fun case.

[facthunter]

Slap and tickle is better. Where they want a SEX just write" Yes please" and someone may take you up on it. CAUTION. When you are dealing with sex have a sense of humour and  tolerance. because there IS a wide variation and always has been. .AND discrimination is NOT ON in principle. IF YOU wouldn't like to be discriminated against , treat others accordingly or one day it might be you being repressed. . Nev

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, Marty_d said:

I just find it amusing that all this is based on Tickle and Giggle.  Sounds like a fun case.

It would indeed be amusing, like this firm of lawyers - Duey, Screwem & Howe - but it is going to deal with a very serious matter that has wide ranging implications for the path our Society takes into the future.

 

As usual, though, it is another activists playground that they can run around it while the rest of society tries to simply survive in a hostile economic and environmental world.

[facthunter]

Avoid sources that thrive on making you feel as you do. It's not like you can't do several things at once. Most important one  FIRST. Plus IF you can't do anything about it. That's where you are At then.  Keep your Powder dry and fight when it's more likely. to achieve something.

 How'd the Bike ride go may I  ask?    Nev

[red750]

I'm a multitasker. I can listen, ignore and forget all at once.

[facthunter]

Don't put that in your CV.  Nev

[spacesailor]

I hope Australia's " marriage act " doesn't take a hit .

My ' nephew & Husband ' will be heart broken if their marriage is annulled,  what do they write on their docs , when asked ," Are you married " . If it is annulled.

And will the " Wife " , still be allowed,  to dress to the nines for that,

Gay & Lesbian's mardi gras .

A shocking state of affairs. 

spacesailor

 

Edited April 14 by spacesailor
A I

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, spacesailor said:

I hope Australia's " marriage act " doesn't take a hit .

No, your nephew and spouse will not have their marriage annulled. The Marriage Act gives a clear definition of "marriage" and identifies who can enter into a marriage - "marriage" means the union of 2 people to the exclusion of all others, voluntarily entered into for life". Unfortunately, it does not define what a "people" is, so you have to take it to mean the plural of "person". I think that the word "persons" would make things clearer.

 

The Act does not limit marriage to a genetic male and a genetic female ever since we voted that restriction out a while ago. As long as the two seeking to be married are alive (with some age related exceptions), they can marry if they follow the promulgated rules that ensure a legal marriage. 

[octave]

When it comes to fear, my wife is more concerned about these things:

 

 Speaking to the media in Bondi on Sunday, NSW Police Commissioner Karen Webb said she had received reports the man was motivated by a desire to attack women and it was "an obvious line of inquiry" for the investigation."

 

and

 

Three women killed in Ballarat: Australia’s violence issue in the spotlight after brutal VIC alleged murders

 

These things seem to pose a greater threat than someone who started out life male and now has essentially the body of a woman and more importantly the hormonal profile of a woman.   I am not aware of cases of females being assaulted or harassed in a toilet or changeroom by someone who has transitioned but every few days a woman is murdered. According the  Australian Institute of Criminology around 125 women are murdered per year and 94% of the perpetrators are male.   This is the real crisis we face. 

https://www.aic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-05/tandi124.pdf

 

[old man emu]

Well, the arguments in the Matter of Tickle -v- Giggle have been presented and final statements made. The matter is now under consideration by the Judge and we await his judgement.

 

Due to the behaviour of transgender activists in and around the Court earlier in the preparations for the trial, the Judge banned the live streaming of what was going on. After a quick search today, I can only offer a few links to reports, both of which seem to be from supporters of the app's creator.

 

https://www.womensforumaustralia.org/tickle_v_giggle_hearing_highlights

 

https://www.binary.org.au/tickle_v_giggle_hearing_concludes

 

https://bioedge.org/gender/transgender/tickle-v-giggle-australian-court-to-decide-who-are-women-and-who-are-not/

 

I don't know if I am getting this wrong, but I have a feeling that the lesbian community might be on the side of Giggle. Despite a lesbian's sexual preference, she is still a "she" and is at as much risk of male physical abuse as any heterosexual female.

 

What I found interesting in one of those referenced links was the comment that Tickle's complaint had the whiff of "entitlement". That because of a personal choice that person (I decline to use an identifying pronoun) the person was entitled to full access to all things the rest of society allocates to persons defined by their genetic makeup.

[Marty_d]

1 hour ago, old man emu said:

That because of a personal choice that person (I decline to use an identifying pronoun) the person was entitled to full access to all things the rest of society allocates to persons defined by their genetic makeup.

That raises a deeper question.  If a person is born and always feels that they are the opposite gender to their physical sex, and undertake corrective surgery so that their genders and sex align, is that really a "choice"?

Kind of like sexual preference, which no-one except the truly ignorant considers a "lifestyle choice" anymore. 

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, Marty_d said:

is that really a "choice"

To undergo "gender realignment" is a major, major step to take. Obviously it is one's choice to whether they take that step, or are quite satisfied simply to appear as the stereotype of the gender they feel they are. 

 

It is unfortunate that having to deal with such a situation of wrong sex in the wrong body must be a plague on the mind. I wonder how it impacts a person's ability to earn a living and otherwise contribute to society.

 

But, I have to ask, why is it that male homosexuals who adopt the "wife" role in a relationship, don't seem to worry whether they are male or female. From what I see of such couples, bot retain masculine appearance.

[Marty_d]

That's because sexual preference and gender are two different things. 

I'm a male, I feel/identify as male, and I am attracted to females.

For a gay man, they may feel and identify as male, be attracted to males, and in a relationship may be more submissive/"wife-like" (although that generalisation seems pretty fraught too, the power dynamic in relationships can be all over the spectrum), but that has nothing to do with wanting to be female - they are happy as a male.

[facthunter]

I suggest you ask THEM.. The rest of us would be guessing/speculating.. I don't get worked up about this stuff. It has always been with us, down through known history, and an inclusive society should accept some who are different with a minimum of  "carry on"..     Nev

[nomadpete]

There is another psychological aspect to the broader gender change question.

 

I happen to be tall. It is a result of the genetic combination that made me. Sometimes it is downright inconvenient to be tall. I kepp hitting my head on things that don't bother 'noemal' people. When I was a kid, my peers called me names.

 

Over the years I grew strong enough to mostly ignore the discrimination.

 

I  came to accept the body that I inherited.

 

That was not a conscious decision. But somehow I avoided going to a doctor to ask for surgical remedy to my unwanted physical attribute. What I am trying to get at, is that I  struggle to see why it has to be a psychological imperative to surgically change any physical attribute that bothers a person .

I apply this reason to all kinds of body modification.

It all seems to be motivated by social expectations. And that seems a weak reason to take surgical action.

Edited April 22 by nomadpete
i think i got all the spulling mistakes

[octave]

Nomadpete I accept my body as it is also, however I have no problem with people who can't and choose to do something about it.  I simply don't see it as any business of mine what a person and their doctor decides to do.

OME I think it is a bit of an old fashioned notion that gay couples split into masculine and feminine roles.  My sister and her partner don't have discernable roles and most gay friends I have do not indeed a large proportion of hetero couples don't either. Throughout my marriage, roles have varied. I have worked full-time whilst my wife worked part-time and visa versa. In fact I would think if we totalled up work hours she would have done more than me.  After the birth of my son I stayed home full-time with my son for the first year.  This was fantastic and I now have a closer relationship with my son.

The traditional old male female roles in a relationship are much less prescribed than they used to be and this is definately a good thing.

 

[old man emu]

30 minutes ago, octave said:

OME I think it is a bit of an old fashioned notion that gay couples split into masculine and feminine roles.

Not old fashioned, but I will admit to being ignorant of the dynamics of those relationships. Why am I ignorant of them? Simply because I have never had the opportunity to engage with such couples. Not from not wanting to, but simply lack of opportunity. I used t work with a gay guy, but our work was what took up out time. I don't even know if he was in a relationship. It didn't matter, although he knew my wife and kids.

[pmccarthy]

I had a friend who was one of the first Australians to have sex change surgery. Bob became Rebecca. She was never happy and, I think, deeply regretted it. Died alone and broke.

[octave]

8 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

I had a friend who was one of the first Australians to have sex change surgery. Bob became Rebecca. She was never happy and, I think, deeply regretted it. Died alone and broke.

My son employs someone who has transitioned. They are a valued talented employee and as far as I can see happy. What we have both done here is cherry pick a single case to make a case either way.

These days gender characteristics are more fluid. I am presently on the Melbourne Geelong train and in the seat in front of me is a man dressed as a man but with long fingernails with glossy blue nail polish.  It is just an observation and makes no difference to me.  I would not care if they wore a dress or had had hormones or surgery. It simply is none of my business and has zero effect on my life.

 

 

[old man emu]

30 minutes ago, octave said:

It simply is none of my business and has zero effect on my life.

30 minutes ago, octave said:

My son employs someone who has transitioned. They are a valued talented employee

 

I suppose what a person does, if they follow the principle of "if you don't bother me, I won't bother you". How would you react to a raving vegan nymphomaniac? It's the vegan thing that would get on my goat. In my opinion, what we should be concentrating on is the very thing that is important to octave's son - a person whose talent in the business in which they are employed is highly valued. 

 

When I was working for the aircraft maintenance mob, we had a client who had transitioned. I got along quite well with that person, but I think it was because we could talk about the scientific research the person was doing. I can't remember what the field was, but I had enough of an inkling about it to discuss it in generalities. 

[spacesailor]

nomadpete 

Just how tall are you,

As I'm the runt of my family,  at 5' , 10" at school . ( no taunting at school only at home ).

Now , " too many washes later " ,  I shrank to 5'8"  if lucky.

My elder bro 6'4" , with an uncle at 6'7" . ( mum was over 6' ).

Sorry no French metric. 

spacesailor

 

[nomadpete]

Spacey, it was just an example to illustrate that gender change is only one of many things thata person might strongly wish ti change. . A person's desire to surgically modify their body is in my opinion frequently socially motivated, to the point of obsessing. Also, making the desired change does not necessarily  suddenly  bring happiness to the person.

 

However, as Octave points out, that is none of my concern as long as it doesn't  affect me.

 

This thread was originally about whether a service provider has a right to exclude a person from their service, based on the client's  body modification.

[spacesailor]

I just noted , your thoughts on being picking because of your height. 

spacesailor