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How far does this have to go?


red750
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5 hours ago, red750 said:

The Wiggles have added four new members to try to strike a gender and ethnic balance, three new girls, one boy. One girl is of Ethiopian, one first nation, and one Chinese Australian. The boy is Australian/Filipino.

 

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And the problem is...?

 

In one blow they expand their audience (Black & Asian kids want to see people on TV that look like them too), have a gender balance, and share the wealth a little by splitting that hefty income more ways.

 

Can't see a downside really, except they're starting to repeat the clothing colours.

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12 hours ago, onetrack said:

To more accurately represent the racial/ancestral makeup of Australia today, the Wiggles should be comprised of about 3 Asians, 2 Indians, 2 blacks, and 1 token white Anglo-Saxon.

But which type of Asian? - Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Thai, Malay, Indonesian, Burmese, Lao, Cambodian.

Which type of Indian? - Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Islam

Which type of Black? - African, Australoid

What type of Brown? - The peoples of Latin America

What type of White? - Germanic, Mediterranean, Slavic, Gallic, Celtic?

 

Oh, what a tangled web we weave

When Political Correctness we conceive.

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I think way too much is being read into this. it is not about having precise percentages.     I remember when the first woman joined and some  conservative folk I know were in full outrage mode.  Having s female member was a good business decision according the the group.

 

In 2012, for instance, they added the first female Wiggle – and Emma Watkins sparked a new wave of popularity for the group. “Sixty to 80% of the children [in the audience] are dressed like Emma,” group leader Anthony Field told Australian Story in 2018. Alex Ishchenko, head of licensing and merchandise for the Wiggles, believes that 50% of Wiggles merchandise produced is now “Emma-specific”.

 

 

Kids love to identify with particular characters and the Wiggles are popular internationally.   

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A lot of it is tokenism.  What was so good about having a lot of Anglo's anyhow? . Some of them are nothing to be proud of.. I'm about as anglo as you can get (tending Scottish). Australia by and large hasn't done a bad job of accepting a bit of variety. We all feel pain and bleed the same colour blood.. Nev

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Can people define what Australians are? Is it Aboriginals, the white settlers, the early Chinese that came out? What about the early Afghans? The Jews (even though they are largely white)? The Italians/Greeks? etc etc. Or those early Germani immigrants that turned Barossa into a vintners paradise? Even a bunch of yanks came out during the gold rush? Is it just they are white - what makes a Brit that came out yesterday any more Australian than a third generation Aussie of Vietnamese descent or second generation Indian? Is Penny Wong Australian, or not? How about Nic Natanui from the West Coast Eages and of Fijian decsent - sounds and acts pretty well Aussie to me.

 

Sounds like a lot of people think Australians are mainly second-hand Europeans.

 

Yes, there are migrants that try and preserve their culture to the exclusion of being "Australian" when they arrive.. but most, at least for the first born generation, usually embrace being Australian, even if they are proud of their heritage.

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Between 1990 and 2011 we lived outside of the small country town of Braidwood near Canberra.   Gold was discovered in Braidwood in I think 1851 and there was of course an influx of gold prospectors  and associated entrepreneurs.    One of the early families was the Nomchong family.   Whilst we lived there the descendants of the early Nomchong family were and still are operating  some of the local business, most notably the local electrical goods store.  Anything you wanted they either had or could get hold of.      All of the Nomchong family were as Australian as could with names like Bob and Mary, Helen, Eddie etc.

 

Playing "spot the Aussie"  would be tricky really because whilst I perhaps look Australian I was born in the UK whilst the Nomchong family with their strong Aussie accent perhaps would not pass the "spot the Aussie" test.  Interesting it is as if you actually have to get to know someone before judging them.

 

Robert John Nomchong - Obituary

 

 

Edited by octave
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Anyone who lives in Australia, likes living in Australia, and follows the (sensible) laws of the land is an Aussie to me.  You don't have to like AFL or know who Don Bradman was, and you don't have to have European ancestry or white skin.

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I think that the Aussie ideal died in the late 1940's after WWII. Prior to that date, Australia had a population that was increasing slowly by natural growth, aided to some extent by improving health standards which reduced infant mortality rates. In the late 1940's to 1950's, the adult population increased due to the arrival of the Displaced Persons (refugees of "reffos") from Europe. Being young people, they added to the increase in the population by having children. The population continued to increase through the 1960's and early 70's due to migration mainly from Great Britain. Then in the late 1970's we  had the influx of Vietnamese refugees.  In the 1980's we got the Lebanese, both Christian and Muslim. Then in the 1990's we had the Hong Kong Chinese and the Japanese businessmen. In the 2010s we got the Indians.

 

 

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The stereotypical Aussie arose in the century prior to WWII. Tough, self-reliant, helpful, and with a tendency to a bit of yahooing. The last true examples of this mob were those born in the inter-war period. The stereotype was carried on to some degree by their children - the Baby Boomers, but as people of differing cultures began to change the demographic landscape, the stereotypical Aussie passed into  history. There seems to be a dichotomy in the Australian stereotype and its boundary is the line which separates the metropolitan areas from the rural. Metropolitan areas are a polyglot of cultures while the rural areas continue with a modernised version of the stereotype. 

 

I asked my son recently did he think that if Australia faced a military invasion threat would many of his generation volunteer to defend it. He wasn't sure.

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On 27/08/2021 at 10:53 PM, onetrack said:

To more accurately represent the racial/ancestral makeup of Australia today, the Wiggles should be comprised of about 3 Asians, 2 Indians, 2 blacks, and 1 token white Anglo-Saxon.

OT I hope this was posted in jest; According to the last Census, Asians make up less than 10% of Australia’s population.

On 28/08/2021 at 9:11 AM, red750 said:

It's a game of Spot The Aussie in our neighbourhood. Kinda like Where's Wally.

Red I hear this term used too often.

What’s an Aussie look like? Watch ABC and SBS and you’ll hear good Australian voices used by the children of immigrants from all over the planet. They may look Chinese, Somali, Arabic, Indian or Vietnamese, but they are proper Aussies and certainly doing their bit for our country.

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Let's put it this way, Old K. Around our area, 11 out of 10 have Asian appearance, and every house sold around here in the past 3-4 years has been bought by someone of Asian ancestry. I doubt there would be any second generation Australian born. ie., the kids may have been born here, but the parents came here from their birth country, be it China, Viet Nam, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, etc.

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Oops. Except for the 7-Elevens. They are almost all Indian. And obviously most Australian companies - telcos, electicity, gas, etc have their call centres in India. Try ringing one to sort out a problem, they either have no idea what you are trying say/ask, or you can't understand their accent. And I hardly have to mention telemarketers who pester you non-stop.

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1 hour ago, red750 said:

Oops. Except for the 7-Elevens. They are almost all Indian. And obviously most Australian companies - telcos, electicity, gas, etc have their call centres in India. Try ringing one to sort out a problem, they either have no idea what you are trying say/ask, or you can't understand their accent. And I hardly have to mention telemarketers who pester you non-stop.

Well that's the fault of the greedy company trying to cut costs by sending their call centre responsibilities offshore.  Not sure how that applies to the racial background of Australians, or what difference the racial background of Australians actually makes to anyone.

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What I'm saying Marty, is that when you are talking to them, particularly on the phone, it is often  very difficult to understand what they are saying, especially if you are hard of hearing. And even in person, with face masks on, you have to ask two or three times. Combine foreign accents, face masks and those acryllic shields, and you might as well give up.

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Old K, it's interesting to see your claim to the low number of Australians who claim they're Asian - but then, if someone of very recent Asian ancestry is born in Australia, they still look like Asians to onlookers.

The figure I found is that 12% of Australians were born in Asia, I can't find a current percentage for Australian-born people with Asian ancestry, which would appear on earlier numbers, to be at least another 20%. 

At the end of the day, it's whether the immigrants in question are happy to support our style of democracy, and fight for our countrys freedom, if we were faced with an invasion by an aggressive foe. I would hope the vast majority would.

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7-Elevens are mostly franchises. There are a few stores owned by 7-Eleven used to train new franchisees. You have to think of them as glorified milk bars. And in that context, those, like fish and chip shops are usually the first to transition ownership to new waves of immigrants. When I was a kid and young adult (70's/80's) milk bars and fish and chip shops were predominantly owned by Greeks and Italians (speaking in Victoria). When 7-Elevens came in, as I recall, certainly around the inner northern suburbs of Melbourne (Brunswick, Coburg, Fawkner, and beyond), most of the 7-Eleven franchisees were of Turkish or Turkish-Cypriot origin. Around the SE of Melbourne, they were mainly oriental (Chinese Malay). As the new generations go off and do their own thing, the oldies sell up to the new wave of immigrants. And, of course, in low income high turnover work, they will employ their own.. And that is OK.. I had a discussion with the owner of a 7-Eleven in Moreland, I think it was, and he did not only employ Turks, but he did admit that given applicants with the same skills and experience, he would employ the Turk over someone else - generally.

 

This is because with a new wave of immigration, people who are living in a new land will generally seek out their own as it provides mutual support and a common language/culture as they (sometimes too slowly) integrate into mainstream society. And it is generally the same with Aussies over here.. .Although we speak the same language and have a very similar culture, there is something about being able to have a chat with a familiar accent and common background. My kids on the other hand, despite being Aussie citizens (and proud of it) roll their eyes whenever I talk about Australia - they are (at the moment) for all intents and purposes, English (or British).

 

 

I digress - the point I was originally making is that the Indians in teh 7-Elevens aren't because of some centralised policy of hiring cheap labour - they are there because the individual store owners are employing them - probably because they know them or they are family or they are part of their community. This was the same when the Asians owned a lot of them, the Turks, etc. I sort of know this because a) I did a bit of work for a 7-Eleven in the day (father of a girlfriend owned the Footscray 7-Eleven), and b) I almost bought into a Franchise, myself and did some of the training.

 

Re the call centres - 'tis sad. CRM (Customer Relationship Management) software was a big boon in the 90s and early noughties. The software was actually quite good, and it was designed to empower the call centre "relationship managers" to be able to do more with less. The idea was to actually remove the low level call centre staff for everything except for the most basic queries, with anything that needed intervention being routed to better trained staff. The low level call centre staff basically had a script and if the call went off script, the idea would be that a more senior staff member could handle it. The CRM software could provide all details of orders, returns, interactions, etc at their fingertips and the more senior staff would have discretionary authority to make decisions; if the authority was breached, it would go up the chain, etc. The idea was to improve the customer experience, while reducing the reliance on low-level staff.


Sadly, corporate management being corporate management only look short term and baked their cost benefit analyses on reducing costs and also distancing the communication with the customer. With large companies for some reason being able to command customer loyalty despite very ordinary (at best) service because their buying power allows the consumer to save a small percentage of the cost, they know they have a captrive audience. Rather than use the software for what it was intended for, they decided to use the technology to implement the same archaic structures but in low cost centres (aka India, but some now use the Philippines and other cheap labour source areas. And then, they actually made the relationship even more distant as to pass onto a manager when they don't have the authority was a slow hand off (e.g. "I will email them and they will get back to you" or something similar). 

 

Sadly, this gave corporate managers other ideas to cut costs. Software development was the first major function to be offshored to India.. After all, code is code and a developer is a developer. Don't get me wrong, they are well educated, work hard and are very competent. I managed an Indian software development team for a bank on London doing some heavy lifting risk management software. Like anywhere, they have a certain number of superstars, number of good people, number of average people and number of below average people. I enjoyed working with my team and we got a lot done. But, the time difference meant I would star work at about 4am to get a few hours more with them to make sure they didn't go off track. And I had to spend a lot of time with my team to educate them tnat it is OK to say "No, it won't work", or to give me the real time a piece of work would take.

 

On average, they were 1/2 the cost of London resources; on average, they tool 1/3 longer to get to the same quality. This was more because a) speaking the same language with different meanings, and b) the time difference - the reason why I would go in at 4am is, if I waited until 7 or 8am, they had 3 - 4 more hours of coding to a misinterpretation. Although we speak the same language, we are divided by it.Now, if they are 1/3 of the price, but take 1/3 longer, you may think they are 1/3 cheaper in the end (not quite, but for the illustration, let's use it). Well, that may be the case, but where some of the work we did could save us £1bn in regulatory capital to hold for risk management purposes (in other words, free up £1nb for lending or trading), then that extra 1/3 of time to get to market (usually 6 months as projects on average ran 2 years) could cost a lot of money in lost revenue and profits (but you could argue  - saved in losses - although my risk systems have never yet gone the wrong way).

 

Unfortunately, it hasn't stopped; product design, corporate controls, etc. have all been moving out. There are a lot of well educated people in India, and so far the supply is able to meet the demand. During the dot com boon of the late 90s/early noughties, Bangalore did for a bit become more expensive than San Francisco for developers and start ups were onshoring rather than off shoring, but the scales are firmly in favour of India and other low cost centres now.

 

Another thing to brace yourseves for.. remote surgery.. If you're privately insured, my guess is it won't be long before many or most procedures are performed by a competent surgeon in a far away place to save a few bucks for your insurer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_surgery. Better get used to those Indian accents. 😉

 

 

 

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