Ben Roberts-Smith

[nomadpete]

I try to see both sides of the issue. The way I see it the problem is not confined to war crimes.

There are examples of totally unacceptable behaviour throughout our society. Whether it is footballers having a violent moment, or a road rage incident, a 'bad cop', or a highly trained soldier killing unnecessarily. Mostly these people who are otherwise quite normal people (apart from a few brief acts).

The common factor I see in most of these events is "human factors". (The exception is a small minority of individuals who have a psychosis.) The biggest hazard that human factors training showed me, was "normalised deviance".

This is what makes any person gradually numb to the consequences of their own actions or oversights. Step by step allowing a negligent trend to lead to acceptance of bad behaviour. Normalised.

In the case of war crimes, I don't diminish the tragedy of those who die, nor of those who have done the killing and suffer a ruined life of PTSD. Nor should extreme acts go unpunished.

I am saying that most of us are vulnerable to the process of normalised deviance, even when driving a car or doing a preflight check.

 

[old man emu]

2 hours ago, nomadpete said:

"normalised deviance".

This is what makes any person gradually numb to the consequences of their own actions or oversights.

Thread Drift Alert.

 

This doesn't have to apply to the type of  behaviour recently exposed. Take wearing hats, for example. They say that the wearing of hats by men started to lessen when JFK was President and did not wear hats. During the sixties not wearing hats (in cities at least) became normal. Those "pale faces" amongst u who grew up in the 60's and 70's, out in the sun without hats are now suffering the consequences of various types of skin cancers. Things haven't much improved for the younger generation who follow the US fashion of baseball caps. No protection from them for the sides of the face and neck.

[onetrack]

Not everyone want to be associated with the Big Hat crowd. It kind of brands you for life.

[Marty_d]

On 19/11/2020 at 9:04 PM, Marty_d said:

 

What these men have done is to shame the defence force and Australia's reputation.  How can we chide other countries for human rights abuses when they can point to those murders and call hypocrisy?

 

 

 

Ok, I know it's not the best form to quote yourself, but some of these chickens have already come home to roost.

 

China is now busily laying in the boot and Russia is taking the opportunity to get back at us for Abbott's "shirtfronting" over MH17.

Of course, even given these atrocities, the human rights record in each of these countries is a thousand times worse than ours, but we live in a time where the latest news is biggest and no sense of scale or context need apply.

 

I'd call this a cautionary tale - when you let a wrong culture develop in any organisation (but especially one with guns) the consequences can be far reaching.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Marty, I couldn't agree with you more. No one and no country is perfect..However, as ScoMo said in response to the tweeted doctored photo, the process has been made transparent, those responsible will be held to account; this is what democratic and free countries do.

 

Of course, the AFP raids, presumably under some political direction which will come out in the wash if there was, put a bit more of a cloud over things. But, eventually, we have been seen to address the issue... No one is perfect, but at least we are no longer trying to cover it up. Hopefully we will learn form it and improve... Remembering, these are trained killing machines at the end of the day...

 

The likes of China and Russia can't point to such openness - can theyy? The Uighurs in China? Russia is hardly a bastionof human rights and still has no problems killing (or attempting to kill) its own when they don't agree with teh government. I would be interested to see what either did if their special forces were found in the same boat. Cover ups come to mind (hmmm).

 

Yes, we stuff up.. but at least when it comes to it, we look to put it right...

[nomadpete]

And, Jerry, I would definitely include USA in that group of big countries that have been known to commit unconscionable atrocities and then suppress information.

 

As pointed out, our transgressions have been unforgivable, but then compared to those of other countries, hardly deserve the Russian and Chinese reaction. Especially when the Chinese have used a faked picture to internationally denigrate us.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by nomadpete

[old man emu]

Has international conflict moved from the killing of a Nation's soldiers to the assassination of a Nation's reputation? I wonder what would happen if an Australian Federal government told the Chinese to bugger off completely and that we would not trade anything with them. 

[Jerry_Atrick]

 

 

[willedoo]

1 hour ago, old man emu said:

I wonder what would happen if an Australian Federal government told the Chinese to bugger off completely and that we would not trade anything with them. 

Maybe we'd go a bit more broke and they would just laugh it off and source their resources elsewhere.

[Yenn]

Was that photo doctored? I don't know, but it could possibly be real. I cannot see an Afghan baby or a blade near its throat. I would not trust our government to tell the truth about this episode and i certainly don't trust the Chinese.

When we talk of atrocities we should not forget the Japanese treatment of the Chinese in the thirties and their treatment of many others during the war. Nor should we forget the way the Germans behaved during the war.

What is making all the noise now is caused by our government sending troops in to a so called ar, that is nothing like the old style of war. It started in the 1960s with the British troops in Ireland and has continued ever since. Armed troops are sent in to civil uprisings, with strict rules of engagement, to fight an enemy that has no rules, does not wear uniform or anything else to show that he is a fighter. While in those wars our troops have to look after the lives of people who will immediately turn on them and kill them if they get a chance. One of the most dangerous things for soldiers in Iraq was goats. The goats went everywhere, with a goatherd and his dogs. They find the troops and just legally walk away and inform the enemy. he real cause of the problem is not cruel soldiers, but useless politicians. Not helped by the UN who want more and more wars to displace more and more refugees so that their aid program makes them look good. They should be dong something to stop all the petty war lords from starting the wars.

[onetrack]

Just as there are a small percentage of aXXXholes in civilian clothes, carrying out atrocities such as murder, rapes and violent assaults - so there must be the same % of the same type of person, in the SAS. 

 

When I was in the Green Machine, I worked alongside some real aXXXholes. One turned out later to be a rapist who organised the murder of his victim when she went to the police.

 

He organised 2 thugs to break into her house, tie her up and drown her in the bath, making it look like an accident or suicide. The police believed that was the case, but it was only good work on the part of one persistent detective who uncovered the truth.

 

All three were caught and sentenced, but none got a life sentence, which I believe was wrong. I would have volunteered to string all three up.

Another soldier I worked with was a total thug and a born criminal, who threatened me at one stage - which is when I realised he was the sort who would shoot anyone he disliked, and cover it up as an operational error. 

 

The Army specialises in psychological testing, but it's a very debatable method of weeding out soldiers who just love to kill. Just look at Julian Knight, the Army never picked up that he was a ruthless killer with a severe personality disorder.

We have to remember that frustration boils over in many soldiers, when they know that scumbag guerrillas and civilians are assisting in enemy efforts to kill them - and they can't officially kill civilians.

 

Vietnam had many more American massacres than Mỹ Lai - but they were always covered up. John Kerry is reported as leading a massacre - but it has never been investigated. 

 

However, when you understand that the Viet Cong and NVA carried out massacres of innocent villagers on a weekly basis - none of those people were ever convicted of any war crimes - because the North Vietnamese won.

 

It was standard technique for the VC and NVA, that when they came across a village that contained villagers who wouldn't support them or pay the VC/NVA taxes (in rice or money), they would invade the village, kill the headman and all his family on the spot, and any other obvious or leading supporters of the village resistance - then they would threaten the villagers with more reprisals if they didn't comply with VC/NVA demands. There were many cases where the VC/NVA returned and murdered more civilians until they complied.

 

The failure here has been a failure of other soldiers to speak up when these rogue SAS soldiers carried out these war crimes - and war crimes they are.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by onetrack

[nomadpete]

Re:- china.

This is modern warfare.

It is fought through economy and politics. Right now we are at war and I'm not sure our government is up to the task. Unfortunately our defence forces are not equipped to help with this kind of threat, either.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Resurrecting this thread for continuity.

 

It has not been a great day for BRS: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-01/ben-roberts-smith-defamation-result/102420546

 

This is not a statement of criminal liability, but on the balance of probability, it does not look good. 

 

As this was against Fairfax (9) papers, I am not taking everything they write as gospel, but apparently, the government tried to delay the judgement (can't find the link as Google and The Age are choked with content about the loss of the trial).

 

Apparently, the US has stated that due it the war crimes going on and I guess attempts to hide it, it may suspend some cooperation with Australia: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/may/31/us-warned-it-could-suspend-ties-with-australian-special-forces-over-war-allegations. After all, it isn't like US personnel have not done something similar.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[facthunter]

That's Ironic coming from the Yanks . WE address our war crimes. They want to murder Assange who exposed theirs. Stokes has been behind supporting Roberts-Smith and I can understand him doing that.  Nev

[old man emu]

19 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

After all, it isn't like US personnel have not done something similar.

 

Take that back! You know it's a big My Lai.

[facthunter]

Shock and Awe. WMD that didn't exist. Assanges exposures "just taking People out for the fun of it"  Guantanamo Bay. etc etc.  Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

I also want Assange left alone. I reckon he is a good guy who deserved far better than he got.

As for Ben roberts_smith, I dunno but the wars they are sent to are just horrible.  Fighting against civilians etc is awful. Apparently most people will shoot to miss if they can see the face of the opposition "soldier". I can sure understand that.

 

[facthunter]

This whole affair will have far reaching consequences and is considered an OWN GOAL. (Taking action against the 3 newspapers). The Legal costs are through the roof as well as the repercussions against many of those who felt they had to testify and did.. Suicides are far too high already.  Nev

[Marty_d]

Taking the kids to school this morning and a reporter on ABC laid out exactly what happened to the Afghan civilian that he allegedly murdered. 

My 10yo daughter said "What a bastard!" and my 12yo son said "What do you expect from crazy Americans."

They were truly shocked when I told them that he was not only an Australian, but a highly decorated one.

[Admin]

How many dead soldiers do we have and what happened to those that killed them, did they end up in court? War doesn't decide who wins or loses, it only decides who is left!

[facthunter]

I believe suicides account for more than were actually killed there. WE train and send them into these hell holes in the  first place, where you have little idea who is friend or FOE.  What country would like to be occupied by people from another land with a different religion for years and years?  Nev

[Marty_d]

4 hours ago, Admin said:

How many dead soldiers do we have and what happened to those that killed them, did they end up in court? War doesn't decide who wins or loses, it only decides who is left!

Killing unarmed non-combatants in cold blood is murder.  Our soldiers are professionals,  not Wagner mercs, so they shouldn't (and 99.999% of the time, don't) act like them.

[octave]

I heard someone (can't quite remember who) describe the killing of the civilian as being "morally reprehensible"   and  "STRATEGICALLY  STUPID"   

26 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

How many dead soldiers do we have and what happened to those that killed them,

In this case, we are talking about an unarmed handcuffed farmer.  If this person were a terrorist then it may be more understandable however I would suggest that interrogating the prisoner may just save lives. Summary execution is more likely to act as a recruiting tool for terrorism.

 

I spent 12 years in the military and I am not anti-military.  In fact, I stand with the soldiers who were brave enough to speak out.

[old man emu]

The buck stops with the politicians who sent our military there merely to cozy up to the Yanks. Japan has a pretty up-to-date military, but the Japanese Constitution (Made in the USA) prohibits the Japanese military from acting outside Japan's national boundaries. (I think they can engage in humanitarian work). 

[facthunter]

I think that LAW has been changed.   Nev