The climate change debate continues.

[octave]

Oh also nowadays there are export limits per month so it is quite difficult to sell enough kWh to negate network fees. 

[octave]

Solar export limits

 

 

"Solar export limits are caps placed by network distributors on the amount of excess solar electricity your rooftop system can send back to the grid, typically capped around 5kW per phase. These limits prevent grid overload, meaning any excess energy produced above the limit is capped or wasted rather than sold. 

Energy.gov.au +3

What Export Limits Mean for Your Solar System:

System "Throttling": When your solar generation exceeds your home’s energy usage plus the allowed export limit, special equipment limits (curtails) your inverter, capping the output.

Reduced Feed-in Tariffs: Since you cannot send as much electricity back, you receive lower credits for your solar energy, reducing your income.

Increased Self-Consumption: These limits make it more economical to use solar energy directly (running appliances during the day) or to store it in a battery for later use, rather than exporting it.

Approval Conditions: Many households must install this technology to get approval for larger solar installations.

Flexible Exports: Some areas are moving to "flexible" limits, which allow higher exports during low-demand periods but lower exports when the network is congested, say local providers like AusNet and Essential Energy. 

Even with export limits, rooftop solar remains a strong investment for households to reduce electricity bills through self-consumption

Edited yesterday at 03:51 AM by octave

[Siso]

I have the early contracts, put in as much as I like at 50c/kWh

[kgwilson]

Managed inverters do contribute to the stability of the grid as it is the inverter that manages the battery and decides when to charge or discharge and whether to import or export. I signed up with Amber a few weeks ago and it has been interesting watching what the software is telling my system to do as it uses algorithms to check the spot price which changes every 5 minutes and how much energy I am using and whether my battery is charging or not and what the current export price is.

 

I had run the EV battery down to 20% with a few longish drives over 3 days & decided to charge it today. I have the car set to charge only between 10am & 2.30pm. By 10 am my battery that was depleted overnight as it exported during the peak time from about 5.30pm & 7pm had regained about 55% of charge. The charger consumes 7kWh & the solar now is generating about 6kWh. In January this would have been 9kWh. So the solar was used to power the charger & the rest of the house & the balance supplemented by the battery. When the battery depleted to 29% the system stopped drawing from it & began importing energy and the solar then was all used for charging the battery. At that time the spot price was 11c/kWh & the export price was -1cent.

 

My charger does not have OCCP (Open Charge Point Protocol) so cannot be managed except manually. I changed the charger via its app to charge at 20 amps when it had been charging at 32 amps. The inverter then stopped importing power and supplied the charger & house & began recharging the battery with the surplus. For the last few days the inverter has used its curtailment function to reduce solar output once the battery is full to prevent export at very low or negative export prices

 

The Amber software is in learning mode for the first 30 days so gets more accurate over time. The Amber App today shows that in the past 18 days I am $31.03 in credit. Ambers charge is a flat $25.00 a month so that is covered. The daily supply charge from Essential Energy of $1.92 has already been included. It will be different as the seasons change and if we get a lot of cloudy weather or rain.

[octave]

1 minute ago, Siso said:

I have the early contracts, put in as much as I like at 50c/kWh

That is pretty lucky for you. I would suggest that the majority of systems are on a much worse deal. The fact is that in early days of roof top solar the grid really needed as much as could get. Now there is more rooftop solar than often is required. This is where batteries or EVs come in. My electricity bills are kept low by utilizing solar electricity during the day. Dishwasher, washing machine, hot water are all scheduled for day time. Next year I intend to get an EV so my excess will go into the vehicle and also I can draw back with V2L.

Back to your main point. Because I and most recent rooftop installations are only getting a few cents a kWh and have export limits I would suggest that these people are paying the network costs. If you are getting 50 cents a kWh then you are an example of the problem you illustrating.

[octave]

There are schemes that are making electricity free for everyone for 3 hours a day whether they have solar or not. I don't know about the rest of the country but in Vic I think this starts in October.  This is courtesy of home rooftop solar and it's benefits go to everyone including people who can't afford solar or who rent 

 

Starting from July and October 2026, millions of Australian households (specifically NSW, QLD, SA, and VIC) can opt into new energy plans offering 3 hours of free electricity daily, generally around 11 am – 2 pm or 12 pm – 3 pm. The initiative leverages excess solar power, enabling savings on appliances, heating, and electric vehicle charging. 

Premier of Victoria +5

Key Details on Free Electricity Offers

• When: Federal Solar Sharer Offer (SSO) begins 1 July 2026 in NSW, SA, and SE Queensland. The Victorian Midday Power Saver begins 1 October 2026.
• How it Works: The "free" window is typically in the middle of the day (e.g., 11 am - 2 pm). It is an opt-in, voluntary scheme that requires a smart meter.
• Who is Eligible: Households with or without solar panels, including renters, can sign up.
• Savings: Projections suggest annual savings of up to $300, or more if electric vehicle (EV) charging or battery storage is shifted to these hours.
• Caps: Some plans, such as those discussed in the SSO, may cap free electricity usage at roughly 24 kWh per day.
• Existing Options: Some retailers already offer similar, specialized plans, such as OVO Energy's "Free 3" plan (11 AM to 2 PM) and GloBird Energy's "FOUR4FREE" plan. 

How to Maximize the 3 Free Hours

• Shift Usage: Run dishwashers, washing machines, and dryers during the free window.
• Pre-cool/Heat: Use air conditioning or heating to adjust home temperatures when it's free.
• Charge Devices: Charge electric vehicles (EVs) and portable batteries during this time.
• Hot Water: Use a timer on electric hot water systems to heat during the free period. 
  Time Out +4

[octave]

Interesting article regarding feed in tariffs.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-03-16/australian-solar-feed-in-tariffs-have-plunged-99-per-cent/104986534

[Siso]

no such thing as free electricity, just grid mis management

[octave]

18 minutes ago, Siso said:

no such thing as free electricity, just grid mis management

 

How is it grid mismanagement?

[octave]

Spot prices being zero or even negative are not just a thing since renewables.

 

 

Negative spot prices are not new and actually occurred regularly before the rise of renewables. While renewables are now the primary driver of their frequency, the core cause has always been system inflexibility—the inability of certain power plants to shut down when demand is low. 

www.agora-energiewende.org +2

 

Why Negative Prices Occurred Before Renewables

Historically, negative prices typically happened at night when demand was at its lowest. 

 

• Coal Plant Inflexibility: Large coal-fired power stations have a "minimum generation" level they must maintain to keep their turbines spinning.
• Cost of Restarting: It is often cheaper for a coal plant to pay to stay online (selling at a negative price) than to undergo the slow and expensive process of shutting down and restarting a boiler.
• Technical Necessity: Some "must-run" units are required to stay online to provide grid stability or heat for local networks, forcing them to bid negatively during low-demand periods just to guarantee they aren't turned off. 
  Australian Energy Council +4

 

[kgwilson]

Since I have been trading on the wholesale electricity market  the export price  is a maximum price of zero from 7:30am going to -1 cent by 10:30am and -2 cents from 11:30 up to -3 cents and back to zero at about 3:00pm. It doesn't get back to positive territory till after 4:30pm and rises to 22-25 cents during the peak evening period of 5pm till 7:30pm. It is during this peak evening period that my battery exports to the market and that offsets all of my electricity grid imports for the rest of the 24 hours by some considerable margin so my credit grows daily.

 

The other thing I didn't know before I signed up to become a VPP was that I am entitled to an additional battery rebate based on battery size, the maximum being 25 kWh so I completed the application & will be getting $676.00.

[Siso]

use to be regularly. Know happens most day. Bit like the price, Use to variable, know it is volatile. No wonder it is so expensive with all the parasitic  intermittent gen. No one knows whats happening next day.

[facthunter]

That's the Nature of electrical supply and demand in our Modern society where Every Place is air conditioned People have dishwashers Fans,  electric stoves, Washing Machines and dryers etc. Baseload has no real Meaning. Just a term used to confuse the Issues..  Nev

[red750]

Siso, what language are you writing in? It certainly isn't English.

[nomadpete]

49 minutes ago, Siso said:

the parasitic  intermittent gen

Sorry, Siso, but that statement is a contradiction in terms.

 

51 minutes ago, Siso said:

No wonder it is so expensive

I cannot see any facts to support this.

 

The generating market has always been volatile. Speaking in terms of prior to the new solar and wind contribution, It was mostly predictable on the demand side, but unpredictable on the generation side. With all the generators involved, every day there is a combination of planned outages and unplanned outages (breakdowns). The National Market regulator just deals with it. Sometimes i saw the wholesale price rocket from $30 to thousands of dollars whilst an extra power station got up to speed. All part of the way the grid works. 

 

Renewables are simply another source of electrons.

 

Sure, there are more things to consider now. But the management is evolving to cope with each change. Renewables are not causing much trouble. Nor are they parasitic.

 

 

[octave]

1 hour ago, Siso said:

with all the parasitic  intermittent gen.

 

So why do you have panels on your roof? If you are actually getting 50 cents a kWh, then your retailer is making a loss with every kWh you export. Who is paying for this? 

[kgwilson]

Baseload is a term that used to describe Coal Fired generation as it couldn't be turned off and had a very limited window of generation variation. The only people who use this now are those who are living in the past or conservative politicians who don't understand electrical generation, usage or demand. Terms like "we have to keep the lights on" and "what do we do when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine" just displays their ignorance.

 

The generation industry, distributors and anyone with a smidgen of intelligence know the problem is "Peak Demand"  so we need available energy to meet this. For many countries this occurs in the middle of Winter when heating demand stresses the  electricity supply but in Australia it is in the Summer when heat waves stress the network due to massive use of Air conditioning systems. 

 

Rooftop solar has had a huge impact on reducing this during daylight hours and now with large multi megawatt batteries and home batteries set up as VPPs the problems are reduced. Add community batteries and pumped hydro and other storage to the mix and we go a long way to a fully sustainable renewable energy nation. Already rooftop solar produces more energy in Australia than all of the fossil fuel energy producers do combined during the middle of the day.

[nomadpete]

Tis is the first time I have heard that anybody is still getting those old FIT's. 

 

Anyway, regardless of the money side of it,

Our energy system is evolving. And any system that is undergoing major changes (such as integrating new generation into the grid), there usually are some teething problems. Surprisingly, the grid is coping really well so far. 

But then again, technological advancements have always impacted the grid. And over the 30 years I was involved (in Qld), there was a constant learning curve and very few hiccups along the way. So far, so good.

 

I do have an issue with the privatisation of the retail end of the power industry.

 

Just putting up a bunch of offices really adds to the cost to the consumer.

After all, instead of paying one retail outlet, the consumers collectively foot the combined costs of multiple CEO's, multiple databases, multiple help desks, multiple staff, etc. This simply has to cost more than one payment system.

 

 

Edited 5 hours ago by nomadpete

[facthunter]

Since Jeff Kennet Sold Victoria's Poles and Wires they  haven't  been Painted once. People get revved up about High tension wires and towers. IF you want Electricity  distributed, you Need Power Lines at High Voltages.  Nev

[kgwilson]

7 minutes ago, octave said:

 

So why do you have panels on your roof? If you are actually getting 50 cents a kWh, then your retailer is making a loss with every kWh you export. Who is paying for this? 

The maximum I have seen on the wholesale market is 25 cent/kWh at between 6:30 & 7:00pm. There is no solar being produced then so it is only export from batteries that can get that much. For most of the day the wholesale export price is 5 cents maximum to negative 3 cents.

 

The best retail solar export plans I have seen are 10 cent/kWh & that is only for the first 10kWh per day then it reduces by half but this is countered by their high kWh charges when importing.

[Siso]

54 minutes ago, facthunter said:

That's the Nature of electrical supply and demand in our Modern society where Every Place is air conditioned People have dishwashers Fans,  electric stoves, Washing Machines and dryers etc. Baseload has no real Meaning. Just a term used to confuse the Issues..  Nev

Been watching the price closely in SA since 2010.(was working for a windfarm) Limited intermittents on the grid back then. Price use to be between $45 and $65 every day all day. As the penetration of intermittents increased so did the volitility.

 

24 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

Sorry, Siso, but that statement is a contradiction in terms.

 

I cannot see any facts to support this.

 

The generating market has always been volatile. Speaking in terms of prior to the new solar and wind contribution, It was mostly predictable on the demand side, but unpredictable on the generation side. With all the generators involved, every day there is a combination of planned outages and unplanned outages (breakdowns). The National Market regulator just deals with it. Sometimes i saw the wholesale price rocket from $30 to thousands of dollars whilst an extra power station got up to speed. All part of the way the grid works. 

 

Renewables are simply another source of electrons.

 

Sure, there are more things to consider now. But the management is evolving to cope with each change. Renewables are not causing much trouble. Nor are they parasitic.

 

 

Its parasitic because it eats at the stability of the grid that base load generation can provide. Has not always been volitile as above

 

17 minutes ago, octave said:

 

So why do you have panels on your roof? If you are actually getting 50 cents a kWh, then your retailer is making a loss with every kWh you export. Who is paying for this? 

Because I can save money at the time and still do. My next door neibour who hasn't got panels and my kids unfortunately.

[octave]

46 minutes ago, Siso said:

Because I can save money at the time and still do.

 

But then aren't you part of the problem? You could take the ethical stand and disconnect your panels for the good of the grid.

 

Here is the issue as I see it.  Twenty years ago, we had an "old grid" which was well-suited to "old generation" methods.   We now have "new generation' and an "old grid"   I think you are saying we should match the generation method to the old grid. What I and pretty much every authoritative source are saying is to match the grid to the new, lower-cost sources.

 

If we were to halt all new renewables and storage, what would we do?  We could build new coal or nuclear.  You must surely realise that this would be incredibly expensive, and if you think electricity is expensive now, you would not like what this would add to bills. I do actually have the predictions, and I am happy to post them.  

 

Another issue is this. What if we said no new renewables?  People would still be installing solar and batteries.  The technology is only getting cheaper day by day.  An example I use is the system I designed and installed on my bush house in 1990. I still have the receipts for the panels. I installed 60watt panels at a cost of $595 per panel. That was a lot in 1990 dollars (adjusted for inflation, that would be $1515 today). For that price, you can now get a 700W panel.  People will have an incentive to have their own residential power system to save the increased cost of building new coal or nuclear, and I suspect disconnecting from the grid might become more popular.

1 hour ago, Siso said:

My next door neibour who hasn't got panels and my kids unfortunately.

Here, we do have some points of agreement. I believe we have to ensure some equity. As I posted earlier, balcony solar is coming.  Buying into a shared panel installation is also a thing that is being done.

 

When it comes to the new scheme to make electricity free for 3 hours a day, you will probably again say  "it's not really free"   I would suggest you knock on your neighbour's door and say, "if you were able to use electricity for 3 hours a day and not be charged " I suspect they would (will) love that. This scheme is taking electricity from solar panels that would ordinarily be "curtailed" and thus wasted. Surely this is a good thing. 

 

I can't think of many countries that are not adopting more and more renewables, and I don't believe this is purely for ideological reasons. Of course, there might be glitches along the way, as there have been with all developing technologies. Aviation is only safe and cheap now because in earlier times, people saw the potential and pushed on solving problems as they went. Going back to 20th-century technology is not the way to go.

 

We can argue points back and forth here, but the point is renewables are growing, and will continue to grow.

[facthunter]

It should not Be "Debated" as It's a Contest of effective Presentation that determines the winning TEAM., Here we should be examining the facts with the aim of understanding and solving the Issue. You are trained to debate well. he time Might be better spent doing Science, Probability. Communication. Expression and Logic. Nev