Time to Arm Up in the UK

[Cosmick]

In light of the lone wolf attack in London and the stabbing death of a police officer I think its about time that ALL cops got side arms so they can protect the Citizens and themselves...

 

 

[Phil Perry]

In light of the lone wolf attack in London and the stabbing death of a police officer I think its about time that ALL cops got side arms so they can protect the Citizens and themselves...

A LARGE number of serving Police officers DON'T WANT to be armed mate. ( I know several, from a Police flying club ) The officer murdered outside the HOC was numbered amongst these officers who would not carry a weapon. I can understand the reaction to yesterday's outrage, but arming ALL cops. . .well I don't honestly think this will ever happen. Perhaps it's because we in the UK still have the 'Dixon of Dock Green' mentality of kindly 'Bobbies' helping old ladies across the street ?. . . We've never had a routinely armed national Police force, even though, nowadays it seems like nearly all the bloody Crims are regularly tooled up, even with our fairly draconian laws with respect to being caught in possession of a firearm. 5 years in pokey, . . Automatic. . . .Eveb when some jerk holds up a post office with an air pistol,. . .that becomes a firearms offence. . . .same sentence.

 

Maybe an improvement in 'Tazer' technology is one answer, at the moment they only fire Once. . . and sometimes this isn't enough if the target is filled up with columbian marching powder or similar. . and in some cases, officers don't want to use them following some deaths caused by their use. . . It's a difficult one.

 

Feelings run high immediately following an incident like this, so I would urge caution and some deep, calm thinking on the subject to preclude any knee jerk reactions.. . .

 

 

[Phil Perry]

'Mentally ill Lone Wolf' . . .no idea of the motive behind the attack. . .

 

That is GovernmentDoublespeak for 'OMG It's those damned Isamic Jihadists again. . .' But we can't actually SAY that can we. . that would be politically incorrect. . . hence the manufactured meme 'Lone Wolf - motivation unknown' anyway, as our nice London Mayor Mr, Sadiq Khan has said publicly ' Terrorist Incidents are all part and parcel of living in a big city ' So I guess that means we have to live with it then Mr. Khan ?

 

 

[nomadpete]

Your mayor is simply stating the obvious. And it applies to all cities on the planet. Has done for many years. He wasn't condoning acts of violence at all. Quite the opposite.

 

And yes, we all have to live with the risk, and take all reasonable means to control the risk. Since the risk comes from a number of possible sources (not just from one particular religious group of nutjobs), it is not easily controlled.

 

 

[gareth lacey]

I say that's wrong only the islamists want to dominate the world, no Siehks, or Buddists, or any other religion at this time want that and only muslim terrorist commit these acts of wanton evil, all muslims are not terrorists but all the terrorists are muslim, this :lone wolf meme : is a copout by the liberal loonies in most western countries canada has just passed a law against islamophobia , is there any such thing,seems that you can insult a muslim by having a dog walk by with you, easter traditions, Christian crosses and more , yet we cannot out of pc say a thing, the 18c debate ,I feel insulted by these islamists but I could not bring a case , they are a minority, minorities should not get more just because of this they MUST obey the country they are in Laws,if they cannot ,leave ,you will not fit in

 

 

[Marty_d]

Christ, it sounds like that fruitcake Hanson has some followers. It's not often I agree with Barmy Joyce but he was right today, she is batsh*t crazy.

 

There are 1.6 BILLION muslims.

 

Almost all of them reject the radical wahabist view of islam.

 

Blaming all islamist terrorism on all followers of islam is like saying that because one GermanWings pilot deliberately flew into a mountain, all pilots are psychological time bombs who will snap and kill thousands.

 

It's a wonder they let those crazy bastards fly at all, much less carry passengers. What are they thinking? Ban them all!

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

You and I seem to agree on most things, Marty, but this one is a special case.

 

I have met many decent Moslems and have seen much that is praiseworthy in their way of life.

 

The problems all seem to come from strict interpretations of their guide book.

 

According to many commentators, it requires Moslems to do nasty things in order to defend and propagate their faith. Our species has adopted lots of different religions, but I know of no other which insists on the death penalty for questioning the book, insulting its prophet or god, or for leaving the faith.

 

After years of wrestling with the evidence, I came to the painful decision that the likes of Hanson have a point.

 

Islam requires its adherants to submit. No questions, no arguments, no compromises.

 

Islam is not compatible with Australia.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Yes but OK, you're missing the point that EVERY religious text, if followed literally, requires adherents to do things that are not compatible with current values.

 

The christian bible (see Leviticus for example) requires the killing of witches, gays, adulterers, and a whole bunch of others.

 

And while islamist terrorists are currently more active than most other sorts, cast your mind back to the christian ones - IRA for example, there's been a bunch around the Mediterranean, and of course your US freaks who kill family planning staff.

 

I'm an atheist, so to me all religions are kind of nonsensical. But the vast majority of followers of any major religion are decent people. Tarring the whole 1.6 billion with the psychopathic actions of a few just doesn't make sense.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

All true, Marty. The difference is that Christian countries allowed the development of a tolerant secular society. Many Moslem countries are resisting that at all costs.

 

 

[facthunter]

Try telling that to the Scots during their history of the changing religions of the British royalty. Christian aren't any better than the others (at their extreme) Look down through history. I'm also atheist, and from that view, see it all as some kind of collective insecurity/madness peculiar to followers of sky fairies. and weird prophets, god kings etc Nev

 

 

[dutchroll]

All true, Marty. The difference is that Christian countries allowed the development of a tolerant secular society. Many Moslem countries are resisting that at all costs.

Never been to the USA, have you?

 

I've spent a lot of time in the deep south, and some time in the mid-west. There's nothing secular or tolerant about those regions.

 

In fact, there's nothing much secular about the whole United States - the largest Christian country in the world where admitting that you're atheistic can lose you friends irrespective of how nice you are.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I grant you that point Dutch, but I've long studied the place from afar and and have no desire to go there.

 

I grew up with Australians who are indoctrinated with the same religious intolerance. Most people live in a bubble of info they are comfortable with.

 

At least there is still some hope for America; it is a huge, dynamic society which has often produced innovative solutions for its numerous problems.

 

... and don't forget they still have National Geographic!

 

 

[dutchroll]

At least there is still some hope for America; it is a huge, dynamic society which has often produced innovative solutions for its numerous problems.

Not a lot. Religious-based intolerance is passed down through to young children there just like it is anywhere else. The innovative solutions which come out of the USA generally consist of technological ones, not philosophical things which are ingrained into their consciousness.

 

This is a country where people actively try to get the biblical creation story taught in public schools as the only factual account of how we got here. Of course it's neither factual, nor the only creation story.

 

But you can't go around saying Christian countries foster a tolerant secular society when the biggest one of them all does not, and a number of others don't either (Philippines springs to mind too, as does Poland and some places in South America). The UK, Australia, and Canada are actually quite exceptional in this regard.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Sadly, Dutch, you're probably right about intolerance in the USA and some other places, but I didn't claim that Christian countries foster tolerance.

 

I said they allowed a tolerant society to develop; something that seems unimaginable in today's Islamic world.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

An interesting graphic relevant to the discussion:

 

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[dutchroll]

Indonesia is the largest muslim country by a significant margin and during my many travels there I've actually found them very pleasant and very tolerant. Going out to a restaurant and having a beer or wine is absolutely no problem. Walking around in a shopping centre there is everything from conservatively dressed Muslim women to non-Muslim teenagers in shorts and t-shirts and no-one bats an eyelid. Hijab-clad shop assistants are exceedingly polite and friendly.

 

The troubles which sometimes occur are almost exclusively started by "out-of-towners" from more conservative areas of the countryside, who are poor, of low education, tend to have more extreme beliefs, are more easily riled up by the odd cleric, and travel into Jakarta mostly to stir the pot.

 

That chart is kind of worthless without knowing how it was compiled and based on what data. Also, what exactly are "survival values" and what exactly are "self-expression values" and how are they measured?

 

I mean - Jordan. Right down the bottom there in the low income group. However 14% of the population in Jordan live below the poverty line, compared to 15% in the USA, and 16% in the UK! (source: CIA world fact book, and you can cross refer these stats with other sources too). So what does it all mean?

 

 

[old man emu]

Just to chip in here with a word on providing the sources for data like the above graph.

 

Dutch is correct in saying that it is "kind of worthless". It is a complex display and cries out for its associated legend to be included. Also, a link to the source would be nice so that others could read the material themselves and make a better contribution to the debate.

 

So, in future, please try to provide more information than just what quickly illustrates the point you want to make.

 

Thanks,

 

OME

 

 

[facthunter]

An Atheist in the USA would be unlikely to get any public job. They are also the "worst" in Muslim countries. Why people who are guaranteed a place in paradise would be so anti someone who declines the offer beats me. More fun for them in paradise. Someone condemned to fire and brimstone eternally, hardly needs any more punishment. The "wrath of God" should be an adequate treatment or do the believers know better?. Perhaps it is having their beliefs challenged they find so difficult to come to grips with. Believe or Die. Doesn't that seem a bit one sided? Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Valid points, fellas. I have no access to the graph's source material so can't comply, but it sure is a good discussion-starter.

 

Re Indonesia, we should be very concerned with what's happening in our once- tolerant near neighbour.

 

We hear that the country is being flooded with Wahhabi versions of the Quran.

 

Our leaders missed a golden opportunity to hinder the spread of Islamic extremism there. Indonesian public schools were desperate for funding, but the Howard and Bush administrations cut foreign aid. Saudi money poured in. How can poor secular schools compete with well-funded Islamic madrassas?

 

Now a whole generation has grown up under their austere and virulently anti-western influence.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Well, I still go there regularly. I was there over Christmas last year and we stay in a hotel in the middle of the city of Jakarta.

 

There were some threats of protest rallies in Jakarta (there have been a number of anti-blasphemy protests there recently) but I didn't notice anything major and when I asked the hotel staff about the radical Muslim protests they expressed that most people were very unhappy about them. In fact they were quite apologetic.

 

And the hotel's Christmas lunch buffet was booked out well before we got there on the 24th.

 

Radical Islam certainly exists there and there have been a small number of terror attacks over the years but as I said, it's mostly out in the poor and largely uneducated rural/provincial areas which are far more susceptible to populist idealism.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

whats wrong with arming the bobbies with tasers?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Well, I still go there regularly. I was there over Christmas last year and we stay in a hotel in the middle of the city of Jakarta.

There were some threats of protest rallies in Jakarta (there have been a number of anti-blasphemy protests there recently) but I didn't notice anything major and when I asked the hotel staff about the radical Muslim protests they expressed that most people were very unhappy about them. In fact they were quite apologetic....

That probably applies in major urban centres worldwide. I'd be interested to know if attitudes across the whole country have changed.

 

...it's mostly out in the poor and largely uneducated rural/provincial areas which are far more susceptible to populist idealism.

...That also applies in USA, Oz, etc.

[facthunter]

I don't see major differences amongst fundamentalists of any religion. If you believe some doctrine is the "absolute" WORD of a DIVINE All knowing being, it's unlikely what you say will count for much even if it seems logical and reasonable. The divine claim enables many totally atrocious actions to be justified. This is the aspect that disturbs me most. Even fairly mostly benign and reasonable religions have been capable of extreme behaviour under selected interpretations of the particular God's word. Hitler wasn't an atheist by the way. As far as I know he remained Catholic. Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I don't see major differences amongst fundamentalists of any religion...

This is what bothers me most, Nev. Many have compared the recent extremism of Islam with odious things done by extreme Christians. The difference isn't just that most Christian atrocities happened in the distant past.

 

The biggest difference is that Islam is built like a very successful virus, and political correctness is preventing most liberal democracies from even seeing the danger they are in, much less doing anything about it.

 

You're right about there being crazies in most religions, but right now Islam is on the march, and very few people in the west seem to be concerned. When, like in France, Moslems exceed 5% of the population it's too late.

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't know what significance 5% would be. I think Marseilles is regarded as a majority Moslem city. It was always a place to know what you are about when you go there (if you do) long before the Moroccan war ended. (with it's access agreements). Nev