Electric car thread

[octave]

1 hour ago, pmccarthy said:

Battery size / charging power = charge time

A Tesla has a 100kWh battery

5 minutes is 5/60 hours.

100/x = 5/60

6000/x=5

x=600/5

x=1200 kW = 1.2 MW

But we are not starting from dead empty, so say 1 MW.

I do get your point, but I think the 5-minute charge is unnecessary. I am guessing that a charging station will not allow large numbers to charge simultaneously, and it will come at a cost. By the way, no Tesla can charge at that rate anyway; few cars can.  It does not seem to be a killing blow to the adoption EVs

 

Interestingly, BYD who I believe is pioneering 5 5-minute charging, don't believe there is much demand for it at the moment, especially given the cost-to-benefit analysis.

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:31 AM by octave

[octave]

I believe Tesla already has a Megacharger for their semi trailer at their factory, and that they are building 46 in the US that canoutput up to 1.2Mw  

 

https://evchargingstations.com/chargingnews/tesla-develops-46-megacharger-stations-for-semi-trucks/

 

https://kempower.com/solution/megawatt-charging-system/

Edited Wednesday at 09:03 AM by octave

[pmccarthy]

3 hours ago, octave said:

 Are you saying it takes 1Mwh to put 100Kwh into the battery?

One MW is a flow rate of power, 100 KWh is the stored quantity. The faster you want to fill it the more flow you need.

[kgwilson]

At the moment most EV charging points do not have energy storage & rely on a large cable from the grid.

 

If a petrol station did not have large tanks of petrol stored underground and relied on petrol & diesel being supplied via a pipeline, it would have to be a very big pipe when multiple vehicles were refuelling at the same time.

 

The first very large EV charging station is near Shenzhen Airport opened in 2023 with 258 chargers and charges 3,300 EVs every day. It is jointly operated by BYD & Shell. The site is also covered in solar panels and has battery storage which is continually topped up from the grid & solar.

 

The concept that you will need a megawatt of supply if 10 vehicles are being charged simultaneously at 100kW assumes no storage. Part of the basic premise of the grid using renewables is storage and exactly as petrol stations require storage so do EV charging stations. The only difference is that there is no giant fuel tanker required as the batteries are continually being supplied.

 

My EV has a theoretical range of 450km & can charge at 140 kW from a DC supercharger. It has a 64kWh battery.  At 110kmh I get around 400km. I do not have a 400km bladder & stop at a charge point when the battery reaches around 20%. At a super charger the charge is back to 80% in about 15 minutes. That only gives me time to visit the loo & grab a very quick bite. Normally though I will find a slower (50kW) charge point as they are cheaper & spend about half an hour to have a better lunch.

 

There is a company I think based in Darwin that has designed an EV charging module with battery storage and a mini solar farm that can be delivered anywhere in the outback. It requires no grid connections & has 4 charging points. Sounds like a great idea to me and blows away the argument that EVs are no good in remote locations in Australia.

Edited Wednesday at 11:51 PM by kgwilson

[octave]

9 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

There is a company I think based in Darwin that has designed an EV charging module with battery storage and a mini solar farm that can be delivered anywhere in the outback. It requires no grid connections & has 4 charging points

This looks like similar to the unit i this vid. In this case, it is connected to the grid and when the battery is full and or demandis low it can sell back to the grid. Also, this was installed in 3 hours.

 

 

 

[red750]

Every shopping centre open carpark should have roofing covered in solar panels to provide weather protection for the shoppers walking to and from the stores, and loading their cars. The solar panels should be connected to batteries powering rechargers that the shoppers can plug into while shopping. 

[octave]

9 minutes ago, red750 said:

Every shopping centre open carpark should have roofing covered in solar panels to provide weather protection for the shoppers walking to and from the stores, and loading their cars. The solar panels should be connected to batteries powering rechargers that the shoppers can plug into while shopping. 

I agree. This is already starting to happen.  There are a few that have already been in operation for a few years shopping centres such as Chadstone in Victoria and Elizabeth in South Australia. I am familiar with the one in Elizabeth SA, as I visit this area 4 times a year.  

 

Elizabeth Shopping Centre – Solar Car Park Shade and Membrane Structures Australia

 

 

[onetrack]

56 minutes ago, red750 said:

Every shopping centre open carpark should have roofing covered in solar panels to provide weather protection for the shoppers walking to and from the stores, and loading their cars. The solar panels should be connected to batteries powering rechargers that the shoppers can plug into while shopping. 

This is a perfect solution to the EV charging question. I'm actually amazed that the shopping centre owners haven't realised the potential money-making potential involved in turning their free parking into an additional source of income from the land, by installing solar panels and EV chargers, and even batteries.

[kgwilson]

There are plenty of Shopping centres that provide a few EV chargers free for customers. As time goes by I am sure that there will be a lot more of these and more chargers as the EV numbers increase. They only need to be slow A/C chargers so they are cheap to install. In reality A/C chargers are not chargers at all. They are EVSE's (Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment). All they do is supply A/C power as the Inverter/Charger is in the EV itself. They do not even have to provide the cable. EV owners just keep a type 2 cable in the boot and plug it in when they get there. 

 

This is happening at Hotels & Motels (called Destination Chargers) and at some shopping centres already. In inner city high density housing areas some Councils are putting in A/C charge points on lamp posts for use by apartment dwellers who do not have off road parking. By the end of the decade these will be everywhere.

[red750]

[octave]

The idea of shopping centre carparks with solar panels and charging stations is already a reality. 

 

 

Electric vehicle fast chargers have landed at Elizabeth City Centre

 

 

 

 

[spacesailor]

😭 I missed  buying a  nice ,  red  , model S 85d tesla .

One owner , immaculate còndition , but with high mileage ,

Ten years of travelling,  Newcastle to Sydney five days a week .

110,000 Kmtrs

with lifetime of free tesla super charging. 

Iv'e  just topped up our Pajero  $ 75.00 . For half a tank .

As an asside our Pajero has 125,000 on it's odometer. 

spacesailor

 

 

[onetrack]

110,000 kms isn't high mileage today - 350,000 kms is, though. I regularly see cars with 250,000 kms advertised for sale, and still asking good prices for them.

EV's have far less components to wear out than petrol or diesel vehicles.

 

The battery age or charging cycles is the big bugbear with EV's - at 10 years old, the battery is 80% done, you'd be lucky to get another 4 or 5 years out of it, and a new battery is as expensive as a new petrol or diesel engine.

 

Tesla won't give out the price of a battery replacement, but one Tesla owner has been quoted AU$16,000 for a replacement battery. Musk says a Tesla battery will go to 1500 cycles before replacement.

If you recharge the battery once per day, that's 1500 days or 4.1 years.

 

Of course, not many EV owners charge once per day, maybe once every 3-4 days, but that still means 12-16 years and the battery is toast. Then there's the cost of repairing EV's if you have even a mild accident. Hitting a 'roo causes multiple thousands in damages, and you can't just take it to your local mechanic to fix it, it all requires complex work to fix - and only Tesla dealers can do it.

[Jerry_Atrick]

I guess in the real world, there is no such thing as a free lunch. So I did a Mr. Google search on:

• What is the average number of kms driven per year in Australia for non-commercial use: 12,600km. Divide that by 365, gives a tad under 35km/day. Lets make it 40kms a day. Yes, for rural based people it will be more, and urban it may well be less. 
• what is the average range of a battery EV: 354 - 485km. Let's use 354 kms. So, for the average number of miles per day and lower end of average number of kms range (yes, there are cars with less), let's say 300kms, as the official figures are usually optimistic. Some quick mental maths tells me that the average number of days between charges needed is 7.5 days. 
• Average lifetime of a BEV battery. It quoted 1,000 - 2,000 cycles and between 10 and  20 years of average driving habits (that is a wide range), is what Mr Google quotes. However, on the lower end of the average range divided the an upper estimate of the average number of kms driven per day, and lets take the lower of the average number of cycles to recharge, I make it 1,000 cycles x 7.5 average days per charge divided by 365, which gives me 20 years of life at the lower end of the scale. Obviously, Mr Google gets his data from amny places, some accurate and some not. 

 

And that is just the start: To do a proper comparison of the total cost of ownership, one has to calculate all sorts of things, including, financing costs (or opportunity cost), insruance, maintenance, depreciation, servicing, replacement parts, fuel, relaibility (unscheduled outages due to breakdowns) and associated costs, etc.. And these have to be annualised, so will be measured based on the average kms per year. 

 

If you google "Average total cost of an EV v. Diesel v Petrol car in australia over the average car's lifespan", you will get basically it is cheaper to operate an EV than an ICE car over the average lifespan. Now, I have no idea of how statistically valid it is, and I am not 100% sure it is grounded in fact, so I am not going to comment, except to say, that when people look at costs, etc, they tend to look a slice of the total rather than the total. And I would suggest it is probably not as divergent as most people claim. That is for the average,.

 

However, when buying one, although we are often indoctrinated into the average mindset, we should be looking at our personal circumstances. From the above, it is clear, removing depreciation and insurance from the equation, EVs would be the best from a cost of ownership persepctive for lower-kms per day usage than ICE engined cars. This is because the longer period of days between charges results in a longer battery life and the operating cost differential would work well in the favour of EVs. From the above, you could argue for higher km cars, ICE engines may be as good, if not better from a total cost of ownership (ex. Insurance and depreciation) because for each charging cycle the battery will degrade by a minimum amount, and as there are more charging cycles within that set period of time, the cost of the battery will offset any savings. And, with some exceptions, if one looks after their ICE engine, many hunderds of thousands of kms are achievable before significant work, let alone a replacement is needed. 

 

If 20 years of driving is the lower end of the average (which the numbers from Google suggest it is, but the actual response suggested otherwise), then you have to looka tgthe differential of operating costs. According to Mr Google, when searching, "what is the cost of an average annual service of an EV versus petrol versus diesel in australia" it said an EV saves on average $300 - $400 per annually on maintenance. Let's go conservative and $300 * 20 years = $6,000 more. Dang it.. Some $10K worse off using an EV v. ICE engine on average kms/year and average maintenance cost. 

 

So, lets look at the difference per year for fuel costs: "what is the average annual cost of fuel for EV v petrol v dielse cars in Australia doing the average number of kms per year". And the response was: 

"In Australia, an electric vehicle (EV) is generally cheaper to fuel than petrol or diesel cars, with potential savings of up to 70% on fuel costs. For an average Australian driving 12,000 km per year, the cost to charge an EV is around $500 annually, while petrol cars can cost around $2,500. This equates to roughly $0.04/km for EVs and $0.20/km for petrol cars. Diesel vehicles, while potentially having lower fuel costs than petrol, still tend to be more expensive than EVs for the same distance"

 

OK, so forget diesel. The average annual saving according to Mr Google is $2,000 per year. Over 20 years, this equates to $40,000. So we have a total op cost saving (ex insurance and depreciation) over 20 years at $46,000 for EVs over petrol, at least. Take away $16,000 to replace the battery in the EV, which will give another 20 years of life, and that may well change the costs significantly, it would appear, running an EV, at least on some average or mean basis, will save you $30,000 over 20 years, if you say you will install a new battery and then trash the car. Depreciation and insurance differentials, based on todays numbers at least alluded to by the press, would erode much of these savings I guess, which means there is no free lunch.

 

But, I can't help but think, most people who have moved to EVs will never go back. Some do. I guess it is up to your circumstances.

[octave]

I have often come across or been sent this cartoon or similar versions. 

 

 

 

Besides the fact that most grids do not rely solely on coal and the fact that every year the percentage of renewables increases, it ignores the fact that petrol and diesel are also reliant on power from the grid.  Of course we need to compare like with like, so for EVs this must include all inputs and likewise for IC 

 

 

 

According to AI

 

It takes approximately 4 to 6 kilowatt hours (kWh) of electricity to refine one gallon of gasoline. This is equivalent to the energy needed to power an electric vehicle for roughly 16 to 24 miles, depending on the vehicle and its efficiency. 

 

Breakdown:

• Refining: The core refining process consumes about 4-6 kWh per gallon. 
   
• Total Energy Input: This figure doesn't include the energy used for extracting the crude oil, transporting it to the refinery, or delivering the gasoline to the pump. These steps also require energy, some of which may be electricity. 
   
• Comparison to EVs: A typical electric vehicle (EV) gets around 4 miles per kWh. This means the electricity used in refining a gallon of gasoline could potentially power an EV for 16 to 24 miles. 
   

Important Considerations:

• Efficiency:

  The efficiency of refineries and EVs can vary, so these are just estimates

   

  and

   

  Oil refineries are highly energy-intensive, and their electricity consumption varies widely depending on size, complexity, and specific processes. A medium-complexity refinery with a 150 kbbl/d capacity might need 50 MW or more of electricity. A rough estimate for a 30 MMTPA (million metric tons per annum) refinery is around 300 MW. Electrification of refineries, using low-carbon electricity for process heating, is a key strategy for reducing carbon emissions. 

  Here's a more detailed breakdown:

  General Energy Consumption:

  Refineries consume a significant amount of energy, with some sources indicating it can be as high as 5-10% of the energy content of the crude oil processed. 

  Electricity vs. Thermal Energy:

  While a large portion of a refinery's energy needs are met by burning fuels for process heating, a considerable amount of electricity is also required for various processes, including pumps, compressors, and other equipment. 

  Factors Influencing Consumption:

  Refinery size, complexity (number of processing units), and the specific mix of products produced all affect the total energy and electricity demand, according to Concawe. 

  Electrification Potential:

  Many refinery processes can be electrified, meaning they can be powered by low-carbon electricity sources, which is a crucial step in decarbonizing the industry. 

  Example:

  A refinery processing 100,000 barrels per day (b/d) of crude oil might consume 6.3% of that amount in energy, with a portion of that being useful power (electricity). 

  Cost:

  While electricity might only represent a small percentage of the total energy consumption in a refinery, it can account for a significant portion of the total energy costs. 

 

 

[facthunter]

If there's a power failure at a fuel station you can't get any fuel I had to wait for over an hour at Barkly RH as the generator was being serviced the daily bill for diesel to run it was 1000s of $$$'s.  Theres a mountain of disinformation about EV's from those with VESTED Interests. OF course THEY would wouldn't THEY?  Fossil fuel has to be transported large distances as well.  A hybrid is a very complex vehicle with the disadvantages of BOTH. The Maintenace on an Electric vehicle is miniscule by comparison. No exhaust system Cooling system Less brake wear No Clutch or gearbox No starter motor. Hot seats available. No fuel leak risks.  etc etc.  Nev

[Siso]

There is a cooling system for the inverter

[octave]

I have just been reading about megachargers.  I think perhaps what is being missed by those who say you can't supply enough power to charge 10 vehicles simultaneously at a fast rate is the fact that these megacharge facilities that exist right now rely on storing energy in a large battery (battery buffering).  These batteries can be charged 24/7 from the grid and supported by solar, etc.  

 

China's ultrafast EV charging station can charge 20 cars in 8 minutes

[spacesailor]

OOPSIES again .

Just not use to high mileage figures. 

Both the Tesla S 85d & our Mitsubishi Pajero  are 200, 000 KLMTRS. 

225314

spacesailor

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

SISO how much heat  does the Inverter handle?   Nev

[Siso]

Not to sure. Would depend on max demand of inverter. Looks as if motors in a tesla may be liquid cooled as well. Quick google found this info. https://www.evcreate.com/using-tesla-thermal-management-system-parts/ . Looks like the Pipestral electric plane also has liquid cooling for the inverter. WTG's also have large radiators for converter cooling.

[facthunter]

Nothing compared to an ICE motor and Auto trans I'd warrant .  Why do you need an inverter with a DC system?   Electric motors are close to 100% efficient.   Nev