Anzac Day

[Bruce Tuncks]

Am I the only person to get angry about Anzac Day? My specific annoyance is failing to recognize just how badly our troops were treated.

They were poorly led and even more poorly fed, so much so that they became unfit to fight. This happened while being troops for the richest country the planet had ever seen, and the cost of a barge-load of vegetables in Cairo would have been peanuts at the time.

Ignorance?  How come they knew a million times less about nutrition than Captain Cook did over a hundred years before?

They were good boys, volunteers and all, and they deserved much better than they got.

[Old Koreelah]

ANZAC Day is the best time for our leaders to ponder the true cost of committing our troops to yet another overseas adventure. Battlefield casualty figures are only a small part of the total price. 

One thing I’d like to see more of on ANZAC Day is more attention to the fact that many of our former enemies are now our friends.
Perhaps a good measure of a nation’s worth is how well we treat those we defeat. The last thing we want is the intergenerational hatreds perpetuated by so many wars.

[spacesailor]

Our former Allies  ! . Are now our Enemy's . China & Russia. 

AND

Hitler's dream is a reality,  ' European Common Market ' .

Except.  England , is the first to get out .

spacesailor

[old man emu]

I attended my first daytime ceremony since 2015 this year. I marched my Father's and my grandfather's medals on their behalf. 

 

As the child of a WWII Returned Serviceman, I experienced what became the basis for the 1958 Australian play, The One Day of the Year. The play was inspired by an article in the University of Sydney newspaper Honi Soit criticising Anzac Day and Seymour's own observations of how ex-servicemen behaved on that day. Dad left home in the wee hours of the morning, spick and span, and returned late that evening well the worse for wear. The TV critic for the Sydney Morning Herald said the play  "sometimes tended to focus more sharply the growing and bitter awareness of the increasing estrangement between an ill-educated, soured lift-driver and his university student son. On the other hand, some scenes of richly meaningful theatrical impact missed badly."

 

I remember reading the play in school, and perhaps aligning myself with the university student son, but as I grow older and gain more experience of the life of the Common Man, I can see why the father, holding a menial job, would relish the one day of the year when those who looked down on him in his work would hail him as a hero.

 

Fortunately the general public holds our members of the Defence Forces in a much higher regard. Bruce is correct in decrying our elected leaders for sending their fellow citizens into the Jaws of Hell and abandoning them when they return, mauled in mind and body. 

[facthunter]

I think the second war was more clear cut than most others but there was plenty of avoidable loss of life. Some of the leadership was pretty $#!t.      Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

13 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

ANZAC Day is the best time for our leaders to ponder the true cost of committing our troops to yet another overseas adventure.

Yes.. perfect opportunity; Would be nice if they publicly and sincerely did.

[old man emu]

This is interesting. You can see that her memories still affect her.

 

[onetrack]

I didn't attend any Anzac Day service until after the 1987 "Welcome Home" reunion in Sydney. A generous local farmer (who I had always regarded as a Scrooge), paid for accommodation and board for the four W.A. Vietnam Veterans in our little country town, to go to the Sydney Welcome Home reunion. I was one of them. One of our group of four was an APC driver at the relief of Long Tan. 

 

We got to Sydney and went in the march, and I was blown away by the reception. No-one really cared much about our efforts in Vietnam before that time. Yet, the Province of Phuoc Tuy, the only Province under Australian Military control, was held up by the Americans as "the proper way to run a guerilla war". Even the VC and NVA grudgingly admitted they feared the Australian troops more than the Americans.

 

After I got home from the '87 reunion, I started attending Anzac Day marches regularly. The reception from the crowds seemed to get better in the 1990's and 2000's, and it wasn't unusual to have crowds dozens deep at the barriers.

The last 3 years has been pretty tough, with the pandemic destroying the marches, and the genuine outpouring of public support. In addition, the last of the WW2 veterans have gradually vanished in the last 5 to 8 years.

 

Todays Anzac marches are nothing like the Anzac marches of 30 or 40 years ago. There's a "more inclusive" approach, and anyone seen as providing a valuable service is held to be worthy to march.

I expect that within 20 years, there will very few actual war veterans left, and that may change the tone of Anzac Day once again. 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Please keep going there onetrack and OME. You guys are keeping the day like it should be.

[old man emu]

43 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

You guys are keeping the day like it should be.

I won't accept that praise. It's my sister and her partner who are the ones who deserve it. My sister is the secretary of the local RSL association (not the registered Services club). They both maintain the area Legacy branch.

 

My grandfather landed on Gallipoli in the second wave about 9:00 am on 25 April 1915. He fought there until the 7th of May when his battalion was moved, with a New Zealand battalion to the tip of the peninsula, Cape Helles where he took part in the Second Battle of Krithia on 8 May 1915. That battle is never really mentioned in the ANZAC saga.

 

The village of Krithia and the neighbouring hill named Achi Baba had to be captured in order for the British to advance up the peninsula to the forts that controlled passage of the Dardanelles straits.  The British 29th Division had made a confused and costly main landing in broad daylight at Cape Helles on 25 April, taking several days to establish themselves firmly in that area.  On 6 May British and French troops made an unsuccessful assault to take Krithia as part of the advance inland.  

 

As a result of this setback, the New Zealand Infantry Brigade and the Australian 2nd Brigade (Vic) were transferred by sea from Anzac Cove to assist in a second attack.  The assault on the morning of 8 May by the Wellington, Canterbury and Auckland Infantry Battalions failed. The bombardment was ineffective and troops advanced in broad daylight across an open valley into gunfire from unseen, strongly held Ottoman positions. 

 

A further attack was ordered late in the afternoon.  After having moved up to the reserve lines during the afternoon and being told to hunker down for the night, the 2nd Brigade and the Otago Infantry Battalion were give 30 minutes' notice to move on Krithia. They advanced into a hail of bullets to within 400 metres of the Ottoman defensive lines.  Little was achieved and the cost was heavy, with over 1,000 Australian and around 800 NZ casualties. My grandfather was one of that 1000, and it ended the war for him, and left him to suffer poor lung function for the rest of his life, living in Repatriation Department hospitals and facilities.

 

My Dad took part in the first capture of Tobruk, but was injured. He was transferred from his infantry battalion to the No. 2 General Hospital and served with it in Palestine and afterwards in Bougainville as a "Step 'n' Fetchit".

[Old Koreelah]

11 hours ago, onetrack said:

I didn't attend any Anzac Day service until after the 1987 "Welcome Home" reunion in Sydney. A generous local farmer (who I had always regarded as a Scrooge), paid for accommodation and board for the four W.A. Vietnam Veterans in our little country town, to go to the Sydney Welcome Home reunion.

I grew up in a little cattle and timber town and the most successful local grazier was very generous in his support of the community- but never joined the RSL. Captured on Crete with a bullet through the groin and carried miles by his mate, he survived terrible conditions in POW camps and coal mines in Silesia. The one thing that kept him going was his dream that after the war his back pay would buy him a small farm. He never received that back pay and the bluddy RSL gave him no assistance at all. He started with nothing and worked his heart out until he owned several beef properties, but always shared his good fortune with others.

 

11 hours ago, onetrack said:

I was one of them. One of our group of four was an APC driver at the relief of Long Tan…

My grandies’ other grandfather spent time there and the kids are very proud to stand with him on ANZAC Day.

He recently opened up to me about an incident where his APC hit a mine and the bloke on top was thrown about twenty metres - but survived. He described how hard it was to extricate the injured driver from his cramped station. Not so long ago he received a medal for his conduct that day.

He didn’t tell us about the blokes down the back who were killed.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Around here, there are a couple of genuine Furfy water tanks, used as garden decorations and antiques.. These were made in Shepparton for ww1....  the name became synonymous with "tall story" at Gallipoli. You could want to swash your hands before eating after burying rotten corpses, but there was no water. If you complained to an officer, you would be told that a furfy was coming soon..

[Bruce Tuncks]

Old K, I never heard that POW's were paid, but I reckon its fair. After the Vietnam war though, the RSL denied membership to veterans, in one of the most stupid acts ever.

I had heard that veterans had been badly treated back home, but none of my ( anti-war ) mates thought the soldiers were bad, they thought they were victims . So I refused to believe that veterans were poorly treated till I read about the RSL.

I don't think to this day that the rank and file members agreed with the ruling to ban Vietnam veterans from membership.

[facthunter]

Protesters threw red paint on the returning Vietnam soldiers. The RSL did what they typically do/ OUR's was the REAL war etc BS.PLUS this time. The RSL has plenty to answer for. I haven't been in any of their establishments except the Geelong one near Belmont after they Teamed up with Clubs Australia's politically orientated gambling lobby.. Yhe management were defrauding the members anyhow.  Nev

[red750]

1 hour ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

genuine Furfy water tanks

Inscription:

"Good, better, best,

Never let it rest,

Till your good is better,

And your better best."

[old man emu]

18 minutes ago, facthunter said:

hey Teamed up with Clubs Australia's

Nev,

What we today call RSL clubs are not what used to be clubs for Returned Service people. If you check you will find that the clubs that used to be run by local Returned Servicemen's League branches are now simply the same as your local bowlo. The RSL Branch is simply housed in those premises. So while I can accept your criticism of a Services Club aligning with Clubs Australia, don't believe that the RSL Branch operating from there has anything to do with that political lobby group.

[facthunter]

I was going on the "coasters" they put out on the tables at the time.100% political.  Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

Well in a population you will find any behavior possible. But I refuse to be included as one of the paint-throwing protesters. Me and my mates thought the opposite to them. I bet there was only one or two anyway.

In fact, it was only because my marble didn't come up that I was not a conscript too. My main objection, then and now, was the unfairness of the whole conscription business. A class-mate of mine, who had an IQ of about 200, was conscripted, but they were too canny to send him off as a grunt. He stayed in Australia designing security systems for barracks etc.

Another guy, who was crazy before and after service, is now a TPI because of his mental health problems. I personally thought he was worse before joining up, but he had plenty of psychiatrists to say otherwise. ( the second guy was not a conscript ).

[Old Koreelah]

I missed out by one day: born 13th Dec, the 12th came up. One of the lucky ones.

[Bruce Tuncks]

You and me were lucky huh old K. I would have gone for sure but in hindsight I reckon that would have been a bad idea.

At the time, I was mates with a Vietnamese who was helping me with maths. He sure didn't go home either. Only a friend of ours who went on a guided tour last year has really been there. Another mate said that while he was against us ( war protesters ) at the time, now he thought we had been correct all along.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Amazingly, it is China who is the new enemy of the Vietnamese.  They have dammed the Mekong river and the consequences of this are not yet apparent since the tibetan glaciers are melting and keeping the Mekong running.

[Old Koreelah]

3 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

... Another mate said that while he was against us ( war protesters ) at the time, now he thought we had been correct all along.

At that age, like so many of my peers, I knew bugger-all about the world and even less about the reality of power politics, so could very easily have been drawn into the war. Half a century later? We know that Australia won it’s part of the Vietnam War. As posted previously, I’m immensely proud to hear accounts from our former enemies of their respect for Australian soldiers, because they buried the dead and didn’t mutilate them. Even better, what some returning Australian veterans have done to reconcile with their former enemies.

 

America sure didn’t win. They stuffed up enormously. Ho Chi Minh had worked in the US as a young bloke and so admired the place that his postwar Declaration of Vietnam’s independence from the French is closed based on the US document. 
Forgetting all the help the US got from Ho during WWII, they backed the wrong side.

They wasted a generation of men but were beaten by superior resolve. 

 

 

[red750]

During the earlier conscription my numbers didn't come up, like Powerball. When re-introduced for Vietnam I was older than the bracket conscripted.

 

My father went to the enlistment centre for WWII, but failed the medical, so I was told, due to flat feet. He was told he would be more use on the dairy farm supplying milk.

[rgmwa]

On 29/04/2023 at 3:54 PM, Old Koreelah said:

I missed out by one day: born 13th Dec, the 12th came up. One of the lucky ones.

Likewise. They picked the day before and the day after, but missed me. As it turned out the war ended before I would have been posted.

[old man emu]

My birth certificate extract showed the 17th and that was a winner. When I got a proper copy my correct date of 18th was on it. I was at Uni and got a deferral until Gough got in and ditched the whole program.

 

However, in this day and age I think that we should do what event the Neutral countries are doing and require our young people to do some service for the Nation. It's easier to set up through the military, but there is no reason why Nashos should be made to do weapons training. There is a host of jobs in the military that don't require the use of weapons, and exposing young people to wider career horizons could be beneficial. That is not to stop these Nashos applying for front line training after initial training.

 

Is that an old man trying to rule over the youngsters? I've done a lot of things voluntarily that required acceptance of a modicum of discipline such as as a surf club member doing beach patrol and, of course, a career as a constable. I think that a bit of disciplined living whilst young makes a person a steady adult. It never destroyed my Leftist leanings, nor bolstered them.