The climate change debate continues.

[facthunter]

I think the two are "INSEPARABLE".  The Climate Change Debate CONTINUES  is a statement. A DEBATE is a Formatted verbal CONTEST Not a discussion, It's designed to be VERY combative with the outcome decided by rules, Time limits and a Panel of Judges.   Nev

Edited Saturday at 12:19 AM by facthunter
more content.

[nomadpete]

The Climate Change Debate....

 

I am pretty sure that there is no debate to be had about Climate Change. It is changing.

 

 - That debate is over -

 

Further, it is pretty much universally agreed that anthropogenic climate change is real.

 

- That Debate is over -

 

There seems to still be some relatively minor uncertainty about how much of this climate change is caused by human activity suddenly adding significant amounts of greenhouse gasses. Is that really a debate?

 

The media attention focuses on CO2, mostly from the burning of coal and oils.

 

There is a big fuss over CO2. There is a negative side to that. I think this is distracting the public from noticing the other greenhouse gas emissions and the othe massive global  pollution problems.

 

The way I see it, the human animal has evolved to react when an immediate crisis threatens. In the case of the above complex poisoning of our environment, the threat, although ultimately catastrophic, is gradually occuring and seems distant. 

 

So we sit at home in a comfy armchair, doomscrolling & watching cat videos.

 

 

Edited Saturday at 02:27 AM by nomadpete

[facthunter]

I'm still working on My Dexta. When it was Built, I was 17. CATS are good. Nev

[Siso]

You are correct, the transmission system is always being upgraded, but not the huge amount new transmission that is having to be built. 

 

As far as it not mattering if a solar farm is underutilised, the generation is a very small part. We have the transmission line that was built into a remote place at the place of the farm. The backup for the plant when its not running. The GT running at min gen for inertia , the tranmission size voltage regulators hanging of some of the poles/wires. Intermittents are the cheapest form of new electricity generation, it is just all the extras that makes it expensive.

[old man emu]

Solar farm on agricultural land + extremly hot air temperatures + absence of site supervision can give rise to a serious fire hazard. This happened at a very large solar farm at Wellington NSW. I suppose those factors were not realised when the site was approved. You can see from the aerial photo that the site at the time of photographing was not complete. I don't know how old the photo is.

Here is a news report about the event. The report is from SkyNews, but there's only a tad of anti-renewable bias in it.

 

 

[facthunter]

Trusting SKY News ?  You must be THE Supreme Optimist of ALL TIME.  You CAN Guarantee it's BS . Nev.

[old man emu]

OOps! I forgot to link the video. While we all agree that skynews leans towards a certain direction, the fact of the fire cannot be denied. I do not know what the source of the fire was. I can only tell you that when the fire happened the air temperature was in the vicinity of 40C. I can't tell you what the fuel load was, but it would have been grass since the site was originally grazing land.

 

Was the source of ignition a malfunction with the solar panels, or from a natural souce? I don't know, but there were no thunderstorms in the area on that day. All I can say is that we await the results of the investiation into the cause.

 

[octave]

Fires on farms are not unusual.   The source could have been from farm equipment, natural sources, arson or from the solar farm.   Let's say it was from the solar farm; this surely only means analysis and actions to make it less likely to happen in the future.

 

Here is a question: Did the incident below make Skynews? No, it did not.   This happened a few weeks ago, not far from where I live.  There were numerous comments online from conservative folks suggesting that this is a normal process, and sometimes the stack does get smoky for a time.     Whether it was normal or not, it did start a grass fire, which required the fire brigade to attend. A grass fire near an oil refinery ought to be big news.

There seems to be a discount applied to existing technologies as opposed to newer ones.   A petrol or diesel car catches fire, and it is not a big story. An EV catches fire, and it is huge news and has people suggesting that this technology should not exist. 

 

[old man emu]

13 minutes ago, octave said:

The source could have been from farm equipment, natural sources, arson or from the solar farm.

True, but you can discount farm equipment as the site is not farmed. Arson is drawing a bit of a long bow. The point I wanted to make was that a possiblity could have been an electrical short . You could be correct in saying that skynews might have reported this with as much relish as it might report an EV fire. 

[octave]

I was not necessarily suggesting the most likely scenario, only suggesting that in SkyNews' world, only one of these causes would whip them up into a frenzy. As for arson being unlikely, I am not sure about that. It is within the realms of possibility, especially with anti-renewable sentiment.  It is quite likely that this fire may have been caused by the solar farm or associated equipment.   Power lines, whether they are connected to solar or not, are a major cause of fire.  Much of the technical equipment we use is capable of catching fire.  When this does happen, we analyse and take measures to reduce the likelihood of it happening again. 

[onetrack]

Arson is responsible for about 40% of bushfires - but a lot of that is accidental arson - i.e. - carelessness, such as grinding or welding near dry grass. Dry lightning strikes are responsible for about another 40% of bushfires, leaving about 20% being caused by fallen powerlines or electrical faults.

 

I would be very surprised to find that the solar farm caused the fire, they're designed to ensure safety in operation.

[facthunter]

Arcing from dust on insulators is common also. Transformers go up. A solar panel doesn't add heat to the surrounds or below it. Damp bailed HAY can spontaneously combust.  A spark from a tractor exhaust  or the cat converter on someone's vehicle can cause a fire in dry grass. OR someones cigarette Butt. Nev

[kgwilson]

There are plenty of solar farms that co-exist with cropping or grazing. Modern panels are translucent to a degree so some light gets through to the ground. Sheep are ideal for use in what is known as Agrivoltaics as they graze under standard height panels, remove the need for mechanical or chemical vegetation control, provide shelter for sheep, reduce the fire risk and actually improve the pasture as well as providing an additional source of income. 

[Siso]

4 hours ago, facthunter said:

Trusting SKY News ?  You must be THE Supreme Optimist of ALL TIME.  You CAN Guarantee it's BS . Nev.

No worse than trusting the ABC, see they have been caught up in a similar thing to the BBC.

[Siso]

How many solar farms are set up for agrivoltiacs?

[octave]

21 minutes ago, Siso said:

How many solar farms are set up for agrivoltiacs?

It is early days, but I believe there are a few.  Farming has always been a tough way of earning a living. A farmer must decide what they will farm to stay profitable.  They can be at the whims of world markets.  What better way to diversify than to host renewable power projects?     This is drought-proofing a farm. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 03:50 AM by octave

[Siso]

I grew up on farm so am aware how good drought proofing is. Solar farms need to be set up to take stock under them as far as guarding around actuators, cable etc. I am just wandering how many developers are actually doing all the time, or just for the farms where the cameras frequent. The windfarm I worked gave all weather access to the top of a ridge, and has allowed fire fighter access. The road across the top also acted as a fire break for a fire caused by a header. We had to stop some turbines and apply the brakes to stop the rotors turning for the air tractors. The smoke from the fire had tripped some of The HV switch gear which meant some were not able to be braked.

[old man emu]

Wind trurbines or solar panels???

 

There have been concerns made about how to deal with end-of-life turbine blades, as some people say they contain asbestos. What are the the end-of-life products coming from solar panels? Do those products give rise to dangerous pollutants?

 

But isn't there a ban in the import of asbestos products into Australia? Maybe the fear of asbestos  in the blades is a red herring.

 

 

[kgwilson]

The asbestos rumour is indeed a furphy. Turbine blades are made from fibreglass &/or carbon fibre composites like a lot of other modern and highly technical products including many aircraft. Recycling this is quite difficult but they can be ground in to filler for roads and cement products or repurposed for infrastructure as in bridges etc.. The rest of the turbine is fully recyclable containing mostly metals (steel, aluminium, copper) and concrete which can be crushed into aggregate.

[octave]

27 minutes ago, old man emu said:

some people say they contain asbestos

not in the turbine blades; however, some components are found in turbine brake pads.   There have been concerns with wind turbine blades in the past; however, new blades are recyclable. Do you also question what parts of coal power stations are recycled and what is left over when the coal is burnt

 

1 hour ago, Siso said:

Solar farms need to be set up to take stock under them as far as guarding around actuators, cable etc.

? 

 

https://www.siemensgamesa.com/global/en/home/explore/journal/recyclable-blade.html

1 hour ago, Siso said:

actuators, cable etc.

Acuators? I am not sure exactly what you are referring to. There is no shortage of videos and even long seminars on the net. I will happily post links. Also, a search of farms al; already using agrivoltaics will show many examples both here and overseas.

 

There are loads of examples both here and overseas. Here are just 2, but do a search yourself.  This is a win-win situation. Change can be hard, but it is necessary

 

 

 

 

[onetrack]

One of the beauties of running stock around solar panels is they keep the vegetation short, so it has less chance of carrying a big fire.

[old man emu]

10 hours ago, octave said:

Do you also question what parts of coal power stations are recycled and what is left over when the coal is burnt

Settle, petal.

Just because someone asks a question does not mean that they are attacking another person's beliefs. Why did I ask about asbestos? Because I had heard something about it. Your response clarifies that what I heard was most likely journalistic hype. Asking a question is the first step in identifying if a problem exists and is the first step in planning to deal with an identified problem. I expect that the question of dealing with coal ash and other stuff coming from power stations has been asked and some sort of plan developed. How effective any such plan is can be determined by monitoring.

 

What we must realise is that everything we do from gathering food to space travel creates some pollutants. That is inevitable. Our task is to minimise what is produced. 

[octave]

5 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Settle, petal.

I am quite settled.  In terms of asking questions, usually the answer is freely available. For example, off the top of my head, I did not know if wind turbine blades contained asbestos. It is not something I had heard, so I sought out the answer.  

 

10 hours ago, octave said:

Do you also question what parts of coal power stations are recycled and what is left over when the coal is burnt

Perhaps I should have said  "people instead" of "you" to make it more general and less personal.  There is a common trend to only question the new, whilst ignoring the problems of the old.   Yesterday, in my local area, a car burst into flames. There was a flurry of comments about EVs being unsafe, or "I would never drive one of those things" As it turns out, the vehicle was a petrol Hyundai. As soon as this was established, the outrage and concern evaporated. 

[Marty_d]

18 hours ago, Siso said:

No worse than trusting the ABC, see they have been caught up in a similar thing to the BBC.

I have to pull you up on that. There is no equivalence.

The facts are that Trump did exhort his insurrectionists to fight and made a heap of inflammatory statements to them.

All TV programs cut sections out (imagine the run time if they didn't) but in terms of changing the facts, it didn't. And the BBC, instead of apologising, should have told him to f*ck off.

If Sky News and ABC were soccer teams, the ABC is getting a red card for accidentally bumping another player, while Sky News gets it for machine-gunning the opposing team.

[Siso]

There has been some asbestos found in the brake pads on the service lifts. we have received some safety alerts regarding this. Contained inside a sealed housing I believe.

 

Actuators are used for the panels to follow the sun. Some of these have rods that control more than 1 panel.