Here's another one for you to denigrate. . .should you wish to. . .

[nomadpete]

The biggest predicted direct impact of climate change is mass migration (call it relocation if you wish).

 

Did you know that we had Over 60,000 illegal visa over stayers last year?

 

"Australia’s population of 64,600 lapsed visa holders is more than triple the size of last year’s refugee intake, newly released Immigration data has revealed."

 

(SBS news)

 

Although those coming under the "refugee" banner is not a big mob, the total official migration number of 360,000 seems to dilute our social fabric rather quickly over the longer term - after about 30 years (one generation) migrants outnumber incumbents. Not a problem if integration is a primary concern (as it was with migrants of my childhood - I grew up in Villawood). But these new large numbers are living in isolated enclaves where they replicate their old culture and standards, impenetrable by our 'outsider' police.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Are you kidding me? I can't get them to eat half a cup. Unless you count rice bubbles.

The point I was making there is if we had millions of climate refugees sailing into our waters, how else would our government stop them? There would be blood shed, the government represents us so therefore we would be culpable.

Sad but very likely to start happening soon. The Lucky Country might soon be under enormous pressure to accept massive numbers because the world sees us as:

 

the world's largest coal exporter, thus a major cause of climate change.

 

a rich country that has resisted "doing our bit" for the environment.

 

having lots of empty land.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

But wait, there's more doom and gloom...

 

Our recent prosperity is heavily dependent on China importing our raw materials; several factors suggest that won't last long, and our economy will soon take a 1930s- type nosedive.

 

Our government is p1ssing off our biggest export customer by going "all the way with USA"

 

China is building a debt bubble of vast proportions, trade wars are threatened.

 

For the first time, a generation is entering the workforce with lower incomes, fewer prospects and more debt than their parents'...and expected to support an enormous generation of Baby Boomers with their taxes.

 

 

[spacesailor]

M

 

It is illegal.

 

To enter Australia by sneaking in the backdoor. Just because they cannot get in Legally.

 

Otherwise they would not be in the Leakey boat.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Marty_d]

MIt is illegal.

 

To enter Australia by sneaking in the backdoor. Just because they cannot get in Legally.

 

Otherwise they would not be in the Leakey boat.

 

spacesailor

Show me the law that says it is illegal to seek asylum in Australia when fleeing persecution.

 

 

[octave]

It is probably better if this debate is informed by actual facts.

 

From the Australian (hardly a left paper)

 

Nocookies

 

Lots of interesting FACTS here that I certainly wasn't aware of e.g. the percentage of refugees settled as a percentage of the migration program has consistently dropped from 1945 5.2% (of a total of 76500) down to 3.2% in 2015 (of a total 190 000) Whilst it is, of course, worth discussing the notion that we are being flooded by immigrants does not hold up to scrutiny.

 

 

[octave]

Ah Australian link wont work but here is the text

 

• NEWS
   
  
• OPINION
   
  
• BUSINESS REVIEW
   
  
• NATIONAL AFFAIRS
   
  
• SPORT
   
  
• LIFE
   
  
• TECH
   
  
• ARTS
   
  
• TRAVEL
   
  
• HIGHER ED
   
  
• MEDIA
   
  
• PROPERTY
   
  

 

 

• HOME
   
  
• NATIONAL AFFAIRS
   
  
• IMMIGRATION
   
  

 

 

• Facebook
   
  
• Twitter
   
  
• Email
   
  
• Print
   
  
• Save
   
  

 

Migrant numbers in sharp plunge with lowest intake in a decade

 

Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton confirmed yesterday that the numbers would be lower this year. Picture: AAP

 

• SIMON BENSON
  NATIONAL AFFAIRS EDITOR
  @simonbenson
  
   
  
• 12:00AM APRIL 13, 2018
   
  
• 187 COMMENTS
   
  

 

Australia’s permanent migration program is on track to fall this year to pre-2010 levels through tighter vetting rules, with the estimated cut anticipated to exceed the controversial 20,000 floated among cabinet ministers last year but ultimately rejected.

 

The Australian understands that on the current trajectory the annual intake for 2017-18 is expected to drop to between 160,000 and 170,000, which would return the numbers to similar levels before the former Labor government set an official target of 190,000 a year.

 

While lower numbers would require budget estimates to change, this is not expected to have an impact until next year.

 

READ NEXT

 

• 
   
  ‘They’ll be able to make laws for themselves’
  AMOS AIKMAN
   
  

 

Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton confirmed yesterday that the numbers would be lower this year, having “tightened the screws” on the visa approval process in 2015. As immigration minister, Mr Dutton was given approval to change the definition of the 190,000 target in favour of a “ceiling” allowing the government to slow the approval process and apply tougher vetting.

 

Malcolm Turnbull, who this week denied The Australian’s report that cabinet ministers last year discussed a proposal to cut the annual intake for the current year by 20,000, has now also acknowledged that the numbers for 2017-18 would be lower.

 

The Australian has confirmed that the government is expected to achieve a similar reduction without the need for a formal cut to the annual 190,000 cap, because of the rule change.

 

It is understood the department is anticipating the number could come in as low as 160,000, which would be the lowest intake since 2007-08.

 

 

“The fact is that the figure is going to come down this year in terms of the permanent places anyway,” Mr Dutton told radio 2GB yesterday. “It was down about, from memory, 7000 or so last year and obviously we’re not to the end of this financial year yet, but my expectation is that it’ll be down. It’s down, in part, in that area because we have tightened the screws if you like.

 

“We’re looking in more detail at applications that people are making and if people are coming to work here, to bring money, to set up a business, to employ Australians. If they’re going to contribute to the economy and integrate well into our community, then we do welcome them and we’ve done that for a long period of time.”

 

Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs Minister Alan Tudge told Sky News yesterday the intake usually comprised 70 per cent skilled migrants and about 30 per cent coming through the family program, typically spouses of Australian citizens.

 

It is understood the lower numbers will require an estimates variation in next year’s budget. Annual reports reveal the numbers have been falling since Mr Dutton introduced the vetting changes, down from 189,770 in 2015-16 to 183,608 last year, having peaked at the 190,000 target under the Rudd/Gillard governments.

 

Until 2015, the Immigration Department had been required to meet planning levels set by visa category, under the permanent migration program for skilled, family and special eligibility stream migrants, and under the humanitarian program for refugees and others in humanitarian need. In 2015, on Mr Dutton’s instructions a clause was inserted to stipulate that “planning levels are ceilings, not targets”. This had the effect of slowing the annual intake.

 

Mr Turnbull this week distanced himself from calls for lower migration rates and denied reports that he and Treasurer Scott Morrison had overruled a proposal from Mr Dutton to cut the annual intake by 20,000.

 

Seeking to clarify remarks in which he claimed a report in The Australianhad been wrong, Mr Turnbull confirmed that discussions between ministers had taken place but no proposal had gone before cabinet, while admitting that the intake would come down this year.

 

“I might say that the permanent migration ceiling — which has been set at 190,000 for a long time and which we were well below last year and we expect to be below this year — that is reviewed every year, every single year,” he said.

 

“What was initially said in the media, I think in The Australian, that there had been a submission brought to cabinet by Peter Dutton to reduce the ceiling on permanent migration ... and that he had been rolled by me and Scott Morrison,” Mr Turnbull told Melbourne radio 3AW.

 

“That is untrue. If you are asking me, do ministers discuss migration and

 

 

[spacesailor]

I.m not disputing Legal Imigration.but the ones denied access for whatever reason.

 

Then come in the "Backdoor". Elegally.

 

Boats included

 

I believe at least two of my nebou

 

 

[spacesailor]

I believe two of my neighbor.s where removed very quickly @ very early in the morning. As they had no "visa" to be here for the years they were working on a "tourist"visa. Second timeit has happened at at that address.

 

spacesailer

 

 

[Marty_d]

Vast majority of "illegal" cases are those who, as you say, come in on a tourist visa or student visa and then end up staying. They are breaking the law by staying on Australian soil without the correct visa and NOT applying for refugee status.

 

Those who come by boat are breaking no law.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Alright. I did some deeper googling, since there are so many conflicting numbers of migrants. In a previous post, I used a alleged number of permanent migrants - 360,000. That seems to be wrong.

 

Insidestory.org.au has a view derived from ABC's Q&A

 

"Australia’s annual permanent migration intake is capped at just below 200,000 people (Molan’s figure) and each year around 600,000 migrants are granted temporary visas as international students, working holiday makers or temporary skilled workers "

 

Actual numbers peaked at 300,000 some years back and now the permanent immigration is about 170,000 annually.

 

I'm not sure if asylum seekers should be added to that.

 

Then you can add a rubbery figure of overstayed whose visas are expired...

 

 

[Bruce]

Australia needs immigrants like an alcoholic needs a drink. Short term benefits but long term disaster.

 

 

[Yenn]

remember Fiji. they allowed lots of indians into the country and being a democracy, those immigrants could vote. Then the Indians were running the country, the Fiji natives had a coup and all hell broke out. They were suspended from the commonwealth.

 

I don't mind immigrants coming here, but i do mind immigrants taking over our government. The way we are going we will have sharia law in the not too far distant future. Several years ago i went on a train in Sydney and i think my wife and I were the only people on the train who didn't look as if they were foreign.

 

Let them come, but let them demonstrate Aussie values, before they can become Australian citizens.

 

 

[facthunter]

The aborigines probably had a similar attitude when the brit's made this a penal colony without discussing it with the inhabitants. Macquarie made it into a place people wanted to come to. He wasn't popular back "home" for that.. Nev

 

 

[Bruce]

I don't think that the Aborigines had any idea Nev. A striking bit of the account of the arrival of the first fleet is about how the local aborigines didn't even look up from their oyster-gathering to watch the fleet arrive..

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Australia needs immigrants like an alcoholic needs a drink. Short term benefits but long term disaster.

Bruce I agree that Australia's population growth is unsustainable, and that some ethnic/religious groups don't seem to integrate with mainstream society as well as we'd like.

 

But-

 

Our whole economy is based on population growth; without it our pensions and health system will quickly become unaffordable.

 

Without immigration we'd have to get off our butts and work harder, pay more tax and innovate more.

 

During my decades as an educator I rarely saw the children of immigrants choose the easy subjects and do the minimum required to get thru. They were the ones to do the hard yards to get the skills this country needs.

 

Just look at who tops Uni entrance exams, who does the innovating and developes new businesses; immigrants and their kids dominate.

 

 

[octave]

As I drive to work at rush hour I would love the number of cars I share the 4 lane highway with to be halved, however, of course, it is only a 4 lane highway because there are so many motorists to pay for those extra lanes. The same applies to other services and infrastructure.

 

Whilst I share concerns about the world's population it can only be solved internationally. The notion of having no or little immigration may seem like a good idea but with our fertility rates at 1.8 births per woman If we were to stick at say 25 million whilst other countries doubled their populations I think it would be problematic.

 

As far as not integrating goes I think there may be some exaggeration and hysteria here. I think we often don't put these things in a historical context.

 

I was an immigrant. In 1964 my parent immigrated from Britain. We moved to Elizabeth in South Australia, this was an enclave, my whole street was populated by British migrants, this is not the case now. History does tend to repeat. I can tell you from first-hand experience that when I was growing up people did complain that we weren't Aussie enough (whatever that means) Elizabeth did have slightly more crime than other suburbs. At about the same time there were Greeks and Italians who were criticised for not integrating. Later we were warned of the Asian invasion but pretty much the same trajectory. Most immigrants will seek the company of others that perhaps understand them better but as they work their way up the social economic scale they tend to leave these areas just as my family left Elizabeth. The immigration that people seem to be most worried about at the moment (Middle Eastern I am guessing) will take the same trajectory and of course they are not the first wave of middle eastern immigrants. (Afgahn cameleers)

 

Last year we moved house, our neighbors are a young couple, he from Afghanistan and she from Pakistan (or perhaps the other way round). When we crossed paths at first they would look the other way, I assumed that they are not interested in social contact however because I generally am a people person I made the effort and we now are quite friendly they were not standoffish but just shy. We even looked after their toddler, we kicked a soccer ball around our yard, now when he sees me he races to find his soccer ball My point is these are hard working good people who should not be constantly called upon to prove that they are OK. This cartoon in Andrew Bolt's column, it does not represent my neighbors or the majority of immigrants. I note that the author of this cartoon seems to be implying that immigrants come here to feed off our wealth although it seems that they believe that immigrants from countries other than those countries ignorantly portrayed here are OK

 

[ATTACH]49480._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

[nomadpete]

OK,

 

I think you have raised a new , very valid point that needs to be addressed.....

 

Our collective apathy towards education. It is an unfortunate reflection on the greater community that our kids are often subject to ridicule if they show any enthusiasm for learning.

 

I blame the Main Stream Media for continually 'dumbing down' everything presented. Also our governments minimise resources available to schooling, universities, and CSIRO.

 

However this problem is not related to the population growth debate.

 

What is relevant, is the need for us all to get over the myth that we need constant growth to survive. It is ridiculous to suggest that we need constant population growth to pay more tax, to pay for infrastructure growth needed by the previous population numbers. It's a game that never catches up.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

... these are hard working good people who should not be constantly called upon to prove that they are OK. This cartoon in Andrew Bolt's column, it does not represent my neighbors or the majority of immigrants. I note that the author of this cartoon seems to be implying that immigrants come here to feed off our wealth although it seems that they believe that immigrants from countries other than those countries ignorantly portrayed here are OK

 

[ATTACH=full]3433[/ATTACH]

A great reply Octave, but I am appalled that a cartoon like this could be published in modern-day Australia.

 

It reminds me of the worst hate cartoons from a century or more ago.

 

 

[facthunter]

That "unconcern" wasn't the case for very long and I find that version bit hard to believe. Sailing ships like those would have been like space ships today. Mind blowing. It's not a regular occurrence at that stage..

 

That BOLT cartoon is equal to some of the worst in these matters that has EVER been produced. It's a bloody disgrace that It got printed in an Australian paper, regardless of one's point of view on immigration.. I wonder how it would go if it appeared under his name in Holland .. Nev

 

 

[Marty_d]

I think the main problem these days is not actual immigration but the way sections of the media and government present it. The other night Sky News gave airtime to a racist nutjob who believes every school should have a photo of Adolf Hitler. Meantime they blow the "African Gang Crisis" way out of proportion and even the PM piles on.

 

Interesting interview on RN Breakfast this morning with outgoing Race Discrimination Commissioner Tim Soutphommasane, who addressed this and other issues to do with our worsening attitude to those from other countries. Incise, erudite and to the point. Given his name I'm guessing his family started from another country, and I have no idea what he looks like, but we need more like him to talk sense in this country.

 

 

[Bruce]

Latest climate conference is predicting disaster by 2040. This is much later than that guy who is predicting our extinction in ten years.

 

As far as Australia is concerned, it is more the number of immigrants than where they came from. Every extra mouth to feed will be a problem.

 

Marty, how do you imagine Australia will feed an extra 10 million with oil and phosphorous depletion in full swing, plus climate change running amok?

 

 

[spacesailor]

B

 

Soylent Green?

 

From the movie " Quatermas Experiments".

 

I could be thinking of the wrong film but I,m sure it,s "Quatermas ".

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Bruce]

There is also an HG Wells book where cannibalism ruled in the future.

 

Personally, I reckon it is unlikely. But what if it were introduced surreptitiously into pies and pasties? This was in a recent movie made in Tasmania. ( It would never pay to farm people though, their conversion rate is terrible)

 

In the meantime, I actually welcome the idea of food becoming expensive.

 

A sheep should be about 2 weeks minimum wage, say I. Perhaps a months worth. Right now its less than a day.

 

 

[facthunter]

Meat tastes depend on what it's been eating . A good reason to not eat humans, especially western ones. They say some people are tasteless but I doubt that since they smell bad. I rarely eat meat anyhow. Nev