Dual Nationality and SSM

[old man emu]

A great victory for the People! The turnout for a voluntary statement of opinion was spectacular. Neither side has anything to be disappointed about, just that one opinion was held by more people than the other was.

 

What I also find astounding was that the 60/40 split was generally uniform across the country, although the less than 60% "Yes" response in NSW was interesting, given the State's reputation as the Gay State.

 

Unfortunately, now the "No" backers will want to muddy the waters in the name of Free Speech and Freedom of Religion. Special exemptions for religions who want the right to deny the blessings of their deity/ies to the marriage of SSM couples? They already exist. Just ask two divorced Catholics who wish to marry if the Catholic Church will bless the union. Note I say "Catholic Church". Not a squeak about "God" blessing the union.

 

OME

 

 

[Marty_d]

Well this is a pretty historic event. And besides I reckon more work hours are lost every year at the Melbourne Cup.

 

Plus you don't think the $122 million of your tax dollars that the LNP paid to confirm what everyone already knew was more of a waste?

 

 

[octave]

Well this is a pretty historic event. And besides I reckon more work hours are lost every year at the Melbourne Cup.

Plus you don't think the $122 million of your tax dollars that the LNP paid to confirm what everyone already knew was more of a waste?

 

Although basically I did not support the idea of a plebiscite and am now laughing my arse off. Let's look at what has been achieved. Tony Abbott who thinks he can make a comeback is faced with his own electorate voting against what he was advocating, 70 percent for SSM I believe. Hardly makes him a likely future PM or even a member of the next parliament Not only that but record numbers of young progressive voters who otherwise would not have enrolled to vote are now on the electoral roll and presumably will vote in the next election - well played social conservatives well played. But of course who could have predicted such an outcome, if only there were some kind of way to ask people what they thought before insisting on a plebiscite, you know some kind of "polling" that could have gauged the publics thoughts and perhaps avoided this whole expensive exercise.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Not only that but record numbers of young progressive voters who otherwise would not have enrolled to vote are now on the electoral roll and presumably will vote in the next election - well played social conservatives well played.

I was thinking exactly that thought myself. Fools. Let's hope those young voters stay politically engaged.

 

They've had a few "own goals" lately, their blithe confidence that the supreme court wouldn't boot Barmy Joyce probably had the opposite effect on the judges.

 

 

[facthunter]

The older group was the other area of strongest support which puts paid to the idea oldies can't be progressive thinkers. Western Sydney was the area with notable resistance, bringing the NSW average % vote down. this wasn't done in good face by the current Federal government. It was a delaying /blocking action by and caused by dissention within the LNP and IF you are looking for losses, look at the time the Parliament has wasted (and continues to) over this issue. I would also suggest there will be NO vandalism/ damage caused at these events due to the nature of the participants. Nev.

 

 

[old man emu]

Western Sydney was the area with notable resistance, bringing the NSW average % vote down. Nev.

"Western Sydney" is an indistinct term which conjures the image of Bogans. Without having examined which electorates this lower than average "Yes" result came from. I'll jump in and claim that the low result was due to inherent Bogan homophobia exacerbated by a failure to understand the limited extent that returning the Marriage Act to its pre-2004 form would make. The mis-information peddled by the supporters of the "No" side did nothing to promote an understanding of long term SS unions.

 

There was a deliberate effort to side-track the debate by emphasising the physical aspects of inter-personal relationships. The media in 'news' and entertainment focuses too much on the transient relationships of young adults. If the relationships are heterosexual, then they are presented in an uncritical way. If, however, they are homosexual, then the participants are stereotyped and lampooned. How many of the most popular media entertainments rely on sexual relations between unwed characters to move their story lines along? How many 'homosexual' characters in dramatic productions are portrayed as mincing fops?

 

OME

 

 

[kgwilson]

Western Sydney also has a high proportion of immigrants from places where conservative fundamentalist religious fervour dominates. The whole issue has consumed a ridiculous amount of time and money, not counting the $122 million or apparently just under $100 million to run the survey. Kiwis are quite bemused but the whole thing & can't understand what all the fuss was about. Turnbull just never had the balls to get it done the way it should have been with a conscience vote in Parliament. The vote could have been as simple as that on the survey form & cost next to nothing. The ultra right wouldn't have had time to think up all the BS stories about religious cake decorators & boys being forced to wear dresses etc.

 

 

[Bruce]

Yes, "western Sydney" was where those Lebanese gangs raped the girls. The boys who did the raping were also victims of an upbringing which taught them that non-moslem girls were sluts who were asking for it.

 

I think the taxpayer is still funding moslem schools where that stuff is taught. There are apparently many thousands of moslems in western sydney.

 

 

[nomadpete]

KG, you've hit the nail on the head with regard to western Sydney demographics. There's a large proportion of 'new Australians', and a lot of them have very conservative backgrounds (ie a low tolerance / respect for differing social concepts).

 

 

[Yenn]

I can't understand what all the fuss is about now.

 

This whole thing was brought about by John Howard putting "a man and a woman " into the marriage act. Surely all that is needed is to revert to the old wording, or would that be too easy?

 

I find the whole process of inuendo and insult to be ridiculous. Am I to be considered a Bogan and likened to Lebanese religious zealots, just because I voted No?

 

I havn't denigrated anyone for their opinions and I will happily go along with the result, because I consideer others can hold different opinions.

 

Maybe it is because I live in backward Qld in one of the electorates where the Yes vote was supposedly less than 50%. Could it be something in the air that causes those in one electorate to vote against the trend?

 

 

[old man emu]

Yenn,

 

We have all seen how you participated in the discussion of the topic. I don't think I have read a word of bogan homophobia from you. Although I can't see how allowing SSM will adversely affect me, and hence you, I respect your point of view because I know that you are not so naive as to believe the alarmist propaganda of the No campaigners.

 

 

[spacesailor]

The first death to the SSM fiasco happened in the US of A .

 

Does it matter if we as individuals, have to attend ssm marriages or be labeled as homophobic !.

 

Only two to my knowledge, but not close, and wouldn't expect a invite to a MSM from the people involved. I did attend a MSM in Vanuatu, and enjoyed it.

 

I could ask for help from formulites to fly me away from this state, on the date in question.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[nomadpete]

In reality, most gay folk I've met feel rather embarrassed by the overtly showoff types. Maybe now that the fuss is over, there will be less theatrical displays like the ones that annoy you, Red (and me too)

 

 

[old man emu]

I think everyone, no matter which side they bat for, is embarrassed by over-the-top campy displays in the wrong place. I'm not put off by this behaviour at the G & L Mardi Gras, which is meant to be a party. But flouncing pansies elsewhere make me shudder.

 

I'm sure that this campy behaviour is just a stage that young people of that persuasion go through before maturing to become old fuddy-duddies like the rest of us.

 

 

[Yenn]

Were under age voters allowed?

 

Do you have any proof of that?

 

I hear today that they are worried about bakers and photographers not being able to refuse to bake or photograph a gay wedding. If I was a gay getting married I don't think I would want an offside photographer or baker to be in my supply chain. Having photographed many weddings I cannot see that the happy couple would want an off side photographer. they could end up with terrible photos and if it was an off side baker, maybe something nasty after the feast.

 

 

[octave]

And how come 16 and 17 year olds were added to the electoral roll when they are not old enough to vote?

Not true Yes, You Definitely Have To Be 18 To Vote On Same-Sex Marriage

 

This rumor seems to come from this story in the Australian - see the link but make sure you read the "update" at the bottom.

 

Nocookies

 

 

[octave]

The vote count was outsourced without scrutiny, so what proof is there that it was not rigged?

wow, this is really clutching at straws. Lets just for the moment ignore the fact that you are suggesting that the Bureau of stats is completely corrupt and also sufficiently organized and under-scrutinized to pull this off. How do you explain the polling done by private organizations and media outlets which came reasonably close to predicting the outcome?

 

Now they (some) are saying that the legislation will have to go through without the protections for religious and other groups "because we don't have time." Yeah, and they are likely to come back and correct that oversight later...not!

I don't really get why this is such a problem. Churches already are able to refuse religious ceremonies to people that don't wish to ie previously divorced etc.

 

In terms of the often mentioned "bakers," I would suggest that the average small business person is more interested in building their customer base not reducing it. To me, a business refusing service to a gay couple would be exactly the same as a Muslim taxi driver refusing to carry a blind person and their guide dog.

 

Personally, I think it would be a backward step to go back to the days of "we don't serve Irish or Catholics"

 

If we were to go down this road of allowing businesses to discriminate then I would hope that a business could only exercise this right if they have a sign or it is listed on their website and the rest of us can decide to use this business or choose to spend our money at a more inclusive business. Again I would suggest that the average business wants more customers not less.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Can't prove it but grandson's friend is said to have filled in both parents voting form, & no he isn't enrolled to vote but is over 18.

 

(they saw it as a joke)

 

spacesailor

 

 

[coljones]

If the politicians weren't gutless and did their jobs this whole issue would have been sorted out two years ago.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Now they (some) are saying that the legislation will have to go through without the protections for religious and other groups "because we don't have time." Yeah, and they are likely to come back and correct that oversight later...not!

The Dean Smith bill already has religious exemptions. Churches and ministers can choose not to marry gay couples.

 

What "other groups" need exemptions?

 

Why the hell would we water down existing anti-discrimination laws?

 

People say bakers shouldn't be forced to make a cake for a gay couple because of their religious beliefs.

 

What if their "deeply held" religious beliefs were that black people were inferior? Are they allowed to discriminate against them? How about disabled people?

 

It's not an oversight, it's unnecessary and it doesn't need correcting. Australia has spoken. Get on with it.

 

 

[old man emu]

If we were to go down this road of allowing businesses to discriminate then I would hope that a business could only exercise this right if they have a sign or it is listed on their website and the rest of us can decide to use this business or choose to spend our money at a more inclusive business. Again I would suggest that the average business wants more customers not less.

There's a butchery on Canterbury Road, Roselands NSW in the heart of the Muslim area that advertises the "finest halal meat". I wonder if the butcher would refuse service if he knew I bought my pork chops and bacon rashers from Woolworths. I suppose it would be a waste of time ordering a Christmas ham from him.

 

 

[nomadpete]

The extreme right wing religious group still seem to think, that in spite of the Democratic majority of Australians desiring equality for all marriages, that they have some special right to impose their own views on the majority of Australians. Do we have democracy or not? The majority of Australians agree to SSM being ok. No iffs or buts. Get over it. Accept it. Make the changes (simply reverse Little John Howard's changes) and get on with more important government issues.

 

 

[Marty_d]

There's a butchery on Canterbury Road, Roselands NSW in the heart of the Muslim area that advertises the "finest halal meat". I wonder if the butcher would refuse service if he knew I bought my pork chops and bacon rashers from Woolworths. I suppose it would be a waste of time ordering a Christmas ham from him.

Obviously he's not going to stock pork products. The difference is, of course, that he'd probably happily sell you all the halal lamb & chicken you could carry, regardless of the fact that you don't share his belief system.

 

 

[old man emu]

It's marvelous that we the politicians are happy to be elected to government on a 50.1% to 49.9% compulsory vote split, but won't accept the electorate's 60/40 opinion split.

 

 

[old man emu]

Obviously he's not going to stock pork products. The difference is, of course, that he'd probably happily sell you all the halal lamb & chicken you could carry, regardless of the fact that you don't share his belief system.

Yep, and if he advertises the finest ...... meat, I reckon it would be worth sampling his wares.

 

OME

 

PS I was only taking the p|ss