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Transgenders in AFLW


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AFLW is a recent phenomena and although I am don't have an opinion either way, according to some, it has really taken off as a women's sport. Fair enough; then along comes Hannah Mouncey; a trans-gendered woman who wants to play AFLW. The AFL knocked her back, this year anyway: AFL blocks transgender footballer from AFLW - AFL.com.au

 

I have to admit, I am all for equality, but it makes me uncomfortable that a TG male --> female would play in a high-contact woman's sport - and not for the reasons one would think.

 

Presumably she lives TG full time, so thinks act and except for some physical characteristics, is a woman. I have no problem getting my head around that. So, even if she is "gay" (i.e. likes other women), then the sexual predator/jolly argument is unlikely at most and probably non-existent. And let's face it, AFLW has already had its homosexuals come out of the closet - and given at the professional level anyway, they will be professional in their conduct.

 

But I can't help there are a few issues on the matter including:

 

  • The stage of the TG process - are they simply dressing, taking hormones, has the chop, etc? Why would this be important? Well, in truth, I can only conjecture, but if I were a bona fide woman playing the code and some brute who simply puts on a dress gets the go-ahead, I am thinking to myself, "seriously - are the woman enough, yet?"
     
  • Regardless of the stage of progression, having come from the make gender generally (and I stress, generally), would give them a size and strength advantage no matter how much oestrogen they took. I accept, within the same gender, it is the same issue (at 1.65m, I had no chance of an AFL career no matter how good I may have been; even Sam Mitchell is 1.8m - and he is short by AFL standards), but that is the idea of elite sports; getting the elite to play. If I have a women's comp and am admitting TGs originally male, does this not give them an unfair advantage or knock out otherwise qualifying women? Especially what looks like larger built TGs?
     
  • While the focus of the news has been from Hannah's perspective, has anyone asked what the women players want or how they would feel? I am not sure- haven't seen anything on it but probably if they were asked they may decline to be entirely truthful for fear of breaching political correctness standards.
     

 

 

I feel for TG people - they live in a conundrum where they want equality - but in reality - can they ever achieve it without making others unequal? Areas like employment, marriage and similar are (or shold be) pretty easy. But professional sports? Shard changing rooms (assuming only part way through a full transition),. etc? Tough call.

 

 

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I agree that the physiological strength/size advantage from being born male could arguably unfairly advantage a TG woman.

 

However as you point out, the big test is what the women themselves think about it. Possibly wouldn't be a great deal of agreement though - the women would have a range of opinions influenced by external factors such as their cultural background, beliefs, even whether they're from a rural or inner-city location.

 

I don't think stuff like shared change rooms is a dealbreaker - they can always change in a stall if uncomfortable about it. If they've been accepted as part of the team I don't think the others will care if they've got boobs and a dick.

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Nakedness is no big deal in some cultures. Where Physical strength is a major factor it would seem there could be a problem of fairness. I doubt opportunistic males will go to the trouble of being transgender just to get an edge in sport. the hormones they take would reduce their testosterone levels anyhow. The people who are across these things are far more qualified than I will ever be, so I tend to leave the experts to sort it out. Handicapped sports people have similar issues but as long as they can participate in an acceptable way the discrimination thing is part covered. rarely is anything perfect in life and compromise is always required to keep the show on the road. Nev

 

 

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  • 3 years later...

If you are born biologically a man, then you are a man, irrelevant as to what your head trip says and in my opinion supposed transgender people should not be allowed to compete against their biologically opposite gender. It's all a head trip, not biological just a bent head trip and they are welcome to that and are entitled to live their lives as they please. But not when it comes to competing against women when you are biologically a man, that's an unfair advantage and no amount of suppressant drugs will change their biological reality.

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SIMPLE

Stop using your eyes to Test the anatomy.

Saliver or hair follicle test IS the one and only qualified test for Any candidate.

Just my thoughts.

On the others l have changed to !.

Homosexuallity Will reduce the world's population.  (Only two gay,s in my family, great people )

Hetrosexuality will only increase it,( another child to my family, another due October ). 

How to Fix the future for the later generations ?.

CASTRATION AT BIRTH, ( what they didn,t have, they won,t miss. ( just like circumsision )).

spacesailor

 

 

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4 hours ago, spacesailor said:

On the others l have changed to !.

I have no problems with peoples sexual preferences, just don't think it's right men posing as women competing with women. Same as I don't think it's right single sex couples should be able to adopt or have children and the only reason for that is I believe a balanced upbringing can only be attained by having a biological mother and father in the relationship with the child. Now they allow those with absolutely no biological association with the child to be classed as a father or mother, we sure have slid down the drain of ethical responsibility and social sanity.

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9 hours ago, Dax said:

It's all a head trip, not biological just a bent head trip

I am always weary of such statements. I understand where the sentiment is, but ultimately, virtually all behaviours are down to the physiological makeup of the brain and related organs. An example is the fact that different anti-depressants aiom to restore levels of different brain chemicals, e.g. serotonin, to their normal levels as there has been found a correlation to different abnormal levels of these chemicals and moods.. often something thought of to be in the head. Modern psychiatry and psychology is more about the impact of the brain physiology on behaviour and feelings as the study and evidence emerges (modern technology allows examination of the brain of living people without killing them - something unavailable in the past).

 

And a quick search found this, of which I only have the time to read the abstract: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8, which wasn't what I was looking for but also provides some insight of the brain's physiological makeup determine homosexuality and transgenderism.

 

This is another article that suggests the brain's makeup correlates to transgenderism: https://health.clevelandclinic.org/research-on-the-transgender-brain-what-you-should-know/

 

I think the latest controversy is the TG weightlifter in the olympics. Regardless of the brain's physiology, being born a male makes one's physique naturally male. Yes, there are different sizes on both sides of the gender divide, with some women naturally very large (not talking overweight/fat, but built like brick shiphouses).

 

But, IMHO, one has to go with the biological gener makeup in competitions like this.. sad for TGs, but the world is imperfect regardless of our intentions to "perfect" it. Maybe a new cateogry for male --> female TGs and one for female --> male TGs is the answer? But then we will have categories for < 5' and above 5' or some such thing.

 

It's worth noting feminists are starting to get jaded by male --> female TGs wanting to use the collective term aligned to fermales as it dilutes the identify of females.. I wil ldig out some links when I get time.. But a search on mumsnet might yield some hits.

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Dax said:

I don't think it's right single sex couples should be able to adopt or have children and the only reason for that is I believe a balanced upbringing can only be attained by having a biological mother and father in the relationship with the child.

 

Plenty of children are raised in a single parent households.    There is plenty of research to suggest that parents of same couples fair as well as other children.   My sister (now in her 60s)  raised 2 boys with her same sex partner.  These boys became well adjusted men (now in 30s). 

 

https://theconversation.com/factcheck-are-children-better-off-with-a-mother-and-father-than-with-same-sex-parents-82313

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I AGREE !

octave,  I have seen first hand how Good two women can rear children.

I have also witnessed how Bad a mix parent family can be.

As for fostering or full adoption, ANY person taking on that responsibility. deserves a Bloody medal.

As opposed to institutionalised orphanages. were so many have shown Utter disrespect for their charges.

BUT 

Beware of those using adoption for gain.  

My school friends were from " St Christopher's Railway Orphanage  ". ( a piece of English war history. you will NOT see in history books ).

spacessailor

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15 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I am always weary of such statements. I understand where the sentiment is, but ultimately, virtually all behaviours are down to the physiological makeup of the brain and related organs. An example is the fact that different anti-depressants aiom to restore levels of different brain chemicals, e.g. serotonin, to their normal levels as there has been found a correlation to different abnormal levels of these chemicals and moods.

I grow weary of those who don't look at the whole picture and cling to the woke PC approach, which having been in control of societies this century, is revealing it's results. In my opinion, the psychological problems besetting the planet, revolve around what people put into their bodies, which are overflowing with mind altering chemicals in foods and urban air.

 

We can always find examples of something which supports our stance, that's how people justify their positions, especially ideologues, who totally discount the overall picture in the hope no one will notice the truth.

 

Brought my two youngest up by myself, know how hard it is to provide kids with both gender aspects of subjects and upbringing, it's impossible. During that time had the opportunity to be around many single parented households, kids without a male or female figure in the family they could trust, were not that happy when they dropped their guards and showed confusion. My daughter always steered herself to the mothers of her friends and others without a real dad, towards the 3 single fathers in the group, including myself.  Even though she felt and did talk to me about everything, there were aspects of life she much preferred to share with other women and that made me feel a little inadequate and felt sad when watching the kids who didn't have that male or female role model around them.

 

My main gripe with same sex having kids, is those that use sperm donors and surrogates to get children. This means one of the partners has no biological attachment to the child, which down the track can and does create confusion and doubt in the child, especially when they grow up and wonder who  really is their biological mum or dad. There are many of them around,  but only personally now of one friend of my son and he has spent years trying to find out who his father is and has completely severed ties with his biological mother and her female partner, because they refuse to help him find his biological father. Luckily now that's available to those on that position, so they can find their missing link and there are thousands going down that track to try to make sense of who and what they are.

 

Off course you will always find those who are born thinking they are a different sex, which is fine. But when it comes to sport, how often do you see a women who has supposedly transferred from female to male, competing against other men, particularly when it involves strength regimes. It would have to be a very big strong woman who could compete with the blokes in Aussie rules, or the drunken, drug addicted thug sport.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Dax said:

I grow weary of those who don't look at the whole picture and cling to the woke PC approach,

Before I get started on this tripe. before the right (and I am not left) redefined "woke", a term I hadn't heard of until Trump took power, let's look at the definition of what it means: https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=definiton+of+woke

"alert to injustice in society, especially racism."

So, what the f! woke has to do with scientific research into the physiology of the brain  - amongst other things - with respect to the propensity to homosexuality or transgender, I have no idea.. .Maybe you could illuminate us on that one... But let's take this little beauty:

36 minutes ago, Dax said:

which having been in control of societies this century,

Woke being in control of societies this century.. Seriously - are you having a laugh? Just look at Australia.. If we are aligning Woke with the "left", how much of this century has Australia been run by, well, that commie party, Labor? Let's look at Euope, the middle east, Russia, and of course, that Woke communist party of China, the South Americas, yada yada yada.. .Not really in control, I woud suggest... Yet, the world is imploding on itself.. I would contest, it is because it has lost it's more authentic liberal values.. (edit): https://www.google.com/search?q=definition+of+liberal&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ALeKk01qtYid-9m0L5Nu2gVWjHQwLuF30A%3A1626997146358&ei=mgH6YOWkFaqDhbIPhL-SqAc&oq=definition+of+liberal&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyAggAMgIIADICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAAyAggAOgcIIxCwAxAnOgcIABBHELADOgQIIxAnOgQIABBDOgQIABAKOgUIABCRAjoFCAAQsQM6CAgAEMkDEJECOggIABCxAxCRAjoGCAAQFhAeOgcIABCHAhAUSgQIQRgAUIWSQ1j8s0Ngw7dDaANwAXgAgAGHAYgByAeSAQQxMy4xmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesgBCcABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwjl2dXX7PfxAhWqQUEAHYSfBHUQ4dUDCA4&uact=5

 

Not, again, what the right has eedefined a term to be.

 

Touched a nerve? Yep! Also, I am drinking certified Carbon free wine from Aus.. so at least it is healthy... for the environment...

 

The reality is, I will take data over intuition any day - because I have learned that intuition is not reliable. I congratulate you, as I do Octave, for home educating your kids. It worked in your circumstances - it doesn't work in all circumstances - and neither does the education system. But it doesn't make you more knowledgeable of the wider population.. and nor does anecdotal observations. As someone who manages people with mental health conditions, and as a result has had to at least gain an appreciation of the science, you are speaking BS... The science looks at a more representative population than you do (unless you have the collective resources of both public and private budgets of many countries directed to this), and to be frank, they are more expert at it than you. This is not finding something to support a petty argument, which conservative nutbags have managed to redefine as "woke". This is about looking at the science and understanding...

 

Let me take your argument a bit further.. we flap our arms and can;t fly - humans therefore can't fly.. this physics stuff is mumbo jumbo.. don't bother...

 

Or, Newton came up with the corpuscular theory of light.. he is an eminent scientist, therefore, it must be right.. Yeah.. right...

 

 

 

Edited by Jerry_Atrick
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4 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

So, what the f! woke has to do with scientific research into the physiology of the brain  - amongst other things - with respect to the propensity to homosexuality or transgender, I have no idea.. .Maybe you could illuminate us on that one... But let's take this little beauty:

I'm sure you don't know and it wouldn't be worth the time to try to explain it to you, the correlation is something most would fervently reject, because it exposes the vulnerability of their social belief systems and subconscious alignment with others on a psychological level, so they freak at that.

 

Angry people never listen, can't comprehend the reality that surrounds them and are fixated on their ideological understanding. I'm saying this so you know I won't respond to angry attacks, been there done that and I learn from listening to peoples viewpoints even if they greatly disagree with mine. Most people are paranoid about thinking outside their box, so get angry and frustrated because they believe it is only their view that's important. I'm the opposite and think everyone viewpoint is important, even if it goes against the accepted theory.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Dax said:

I'm sure you don't know and it wouldn't be worth the time to try to explain it to you,

 

Er.. I have provided emerging evidence which may explain the tendency to homosexuality and transgender. Your response is purely opinion and anecdotal evidence; so I critique and instead of offering up evidence to back your assertion, you offer what pollies and ideologues do when they can't respond - personal attack and false and disparaging labelling.. I have presented emerging evidence (I haven't said it was the only reason, nor have I disagreed with other mind bending substances having impacts)... It doesn't seem to fit with the gripes and opinion you hold. OK.. no worries.. you can have your opinon

 

But, let me ask the question simply; where do you have the evidence to back up your assertions...

 

7 hours ago, Dax said:

I grow weary of those who don't look at the whole picture and cling to.....

 

2 hours ago, Dax said:

it wouldn't be worth the time to try to explain it to you, the correlation is something most would fervently reject, because it exposes the vulnerability of their social belief systems and subconscious alignment with others on a psychological level, so they freak at that.

 

 

2 hours ago, Dax said:

Angry people never listen, can't comprehend the reality that surrounds them and are fixated on their ideological understanding.

 

2 hours ago, Dax said:

Most people are paranoid about thinking outside their box, so get angry and frustrated because they believe it is only their view that's important.

I think we are in agreement on those quotes... So why would you fall back on anecdotal observations and reject out of hand recent research that may further explain why people have certain dispositions? I am not suggesting they explain it.. I am merely saying there is a body of

 

23 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

evidence emerges [emerging]

that may explain why people are gay and transgendered, and that it may not be "all in the head" as if it is some magical thought process that someone just decides they want to do.. . Why would you out of hand reject it without looking into it more because it doesn't conform to your opinion - or ideals?

 

Perish the thought if I find studies that show same sex couples actually do better at raising kids and theorise that it could be because when they adopt, they have an intention and desire of raising a kid, rather than a bi-product of a drunk, randy binge, of which hetro couples sometimes succumb to (btw, there is a study that suggests this... and I am not suggesting for one minute it is a valid conclusion - but at least I am open to the possibility). Also, it doesn't mean that all of a sudden only same-sex marriages should be bringing up kids, either..

 

And, I think I have so far refrained from personal attacks.. contrary to your assertions, I am neither angry (I am passionate), nor too fixated or closed minded to have your opinion explained to me.. So, please, explain the basis of your opinion -  am all ears (well in the electornic sense)..

Edited by Jerry_Atrick
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Fortunately people are not the  same and why should they have to be.? As far as I can see there's always been what is now referred to as queers. amongst us. Look what some women have to put up with all their lives in a patriarchal society. Same sex people are even more discriminated against. Many of them are far braver than the steroid  and testosterone loaded mirror worshippers who regard themselves as god's gift to women who should all know their place and be grateful. Nev

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I actually think sports shouldn't be separated by gender, but by height/weight/BMI.

 

There are weedy little blokes and tough strong women, and vice versa.  Just like boxers are matched by weight, every sport should be.

 

Let's face it, in the majority of aspects of life, whether it be work, teaching, child care, cooking, cleaning, relaxing, drinking - one of the least important things is what equipment you have between your legs.

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Look up the Norse shield maidens. 
Now out of the town of Sle, under the captains Hethae and Wisna, with Hakon Cut-cheek came Tummi the Sailmaker. On these captains, who had the bodies of women, nature bestowed the souls of men

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8 hours ago, Marty_d said:

Let's face it, in the majority of aspects of life, whether it be work, teaching, child care, cooking, cleaning, relaxing, drinking - one of the least important things is what equipment you have between your legs.

Er... actors/actresses of a certain genre of movies may have a different opinon (I think that is also what Spacey was getting at) 🙂

 

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Well, yes, speaking personally if I were to visit a strip club and ended up having a sausage waved in my face rather than what I was looking forward to, I'd probably think the difference was pretty important.  But for MOST workplaces it isn't.

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I've seen some little blokes who were absolute powerhouses - and I've some big blokes who were weak as p**s. So I'm not so sure about Martys measuring system. I think selecting participants based on previously-shown abilities is probably better.

 

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