The impact of Immigration

[Jerry_Atrick]

Seems this topic needs a thread of its won.

 

What is the impact of immigration - not only to Australia, but around the world?

 

There seems to be a lot of opinion about it - naturally. 

 

In my eyes, there is good and bad about immigration. 

 

In the UK, immigration, which has been on a net basis quite high compared to Aus, even on a per capita basis, is under immense pressure at the moment. And it is blamed for the eroision of public services. But this is a convenient blame., A lot of the publoc services have suffered real cuts over the years, leading to less capacity regardless of whether there was any net immigration. For example, this morning on the BBC, I hear that in England and Wales, the number of health visitors has reduced over the last 10 years form 10,000 to less that 5,500. So, even if the population stood still, there is just a little over half the capacity - that is noit the fault of migrants. 

 

Then there is the cultural impact - how prevasive is it, when the population of nany new wave of migrants is so small?

 

Then there's the discussion about crime. The stats say they commit less criome per capita than the home population, but there are a couple of things to consider. What is the nature of the crime? Is it petty stuff, or serious? And there was the Rotheram grooming gangs debacle, where there is credible evidence the police didn't take it seriously because they avoiding beign called racists - or was it more sinister - let the grooming gangs get on with it to make all migrants look worse and feed an agenda?

 

Do they keep wages low. We often say migrants come in and do the work no locals want to do. I was discussing this position with my son and he disagreed somewhat, or had qualified agreement - whichever way you want to look at it. Locals will be willing to do these jobs; just not for the pay that migrants are willing to do it, and therefore keeping wages artificially low. I am not saying one is right or wrong, just stating a viewpoint. 

 

The reality is humans have been migrating for time immemorial. Without it, none of us would be Australian (unless there are First Nations people on the forums). 

 

So, when you cut through all the rhetoric, stereotypes, ideological opinion and the like, what has the impact of immigration been on you personally as well as what do you think it has been on the country?

Edited yesterday at 07:35 AM by Jerry_Atrick

[facthunter]

It's very good for scaring and stirring up People and where would Pauline be without it? Britain should have remained in the EU.  The far right is More of a Menace than anything else. People today don't know much about HITLER. It's too Long ago.. Racism is Not a good Basis for anything. We all bleed and feel Pain and Protect our Kids. Looks at the damage that has been done in the name of a Religion down through the ages all of which are Patriarchal.  Nev

[rgmwa]

57 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

So, when you cut through all the rhetoric, stereotypes, ideological opinion and the like, what has the impact of immigration been on you personally as well as what do you think it has been on the country?

Thanks to my parents I'm a post war immigrant from Holland so the impact on me personally has been quite significant. Likewise, I think our family's impact on Australia has been quite significant, but that's just my opinion.

Edited yesterday at 08:32 AM by rgmwa

[Grumpy Old Nasho]

It's not so much "immigration", but "mass immigration" created by the conjoined major parties. They ignored public opinion and went ahead with it anyway. Immigration was no longer included in the democratic process, and still isn't. You can have your say, but it inevitably falls on deaf ears. Things might be changing though, with the high cost of living and shortage of housing, the pig-headed major party politicians can't help but hear rumblings from nearly every sector of the broader community.

 

Mass immigration drove me to support One Nation, that's how it affected me. I will not support or vote for parties who find it convenient to gang up against the Public for selfish reasons. They promise sweeteners at election time, but the issue of immigration is completely off the table. As the major parties lose their influence over the general public, as is happening now, we'll get a chance to gain power over them and tell them what we want, not what they want all the time.

 

Mass immigration is not doing what it is intended to do, making us stronger, no, it is making us weaker in every respect you can think of. Why do we have a trillion dollar debt? Why do we have so much drug crime? Why is the nation split into 200 different groups with 200 different flags? Why did we have an anti Semitic "Bondi", and blocked streets full of River to the Sea people?

 

We shouldn't go around with blinkers on. Take them off and look around.

 

[Marty_d]

What do you mean, "support one nation" - you've proudly told us many times that you don't vote!

[facthunter]

The Aborigines never had flags. That's a Modern "thing". I suggest nearly ALL people think some Migration is Good for this Place. Hanson is just a $#1t stirrer controlled by Merde ock and Gina. Take your blinkers off. She has YOU fooled. GON, when Trump Falls over Like Orban Has what Idol will she Pin Her Standard to. Trumps days are Numbered.  30 years of not much  is Pauline's Legacy. There's not much Talent there . she is a Puppet, obligated to others. Nev

[Grumpy Old Nasho]

7 hours ago, Marty_d said:

What do you mean, "support one nation" - you've proudly told us many times that you don't vote!

Voting is not the only way to support One Nation, there's plenty of other ways. But if they field a candidate in my electorate, I'll start voting again. Mass immigration with all it's anti everything Australian, was one of the reasons I stopped voting years ago. I could see the writing on the wall, along with millions of other Traditional Aussies. No one I talk to out here supports mass immigration, they're quite angry about it.

[Siso]

4 hours ago, facthunter said:

The Aborigines never had flags. That's a Modern "thing". I suggest nearly ALL people think some Migration is Good for this Place. Hanson is just a $#1t stirrer controlled by Merde ock and Gina. Take your blinkers off. She has YOU fooled. GON, when Trump Falls over Like Orban Has what Idol will she Pin Her Standard to. Trumps days are Numbered.  30 years of not much  is Pauline's Legacy. There's not much Talent there . she is a Puppet, obligated to others. Nev

Why pick Pauline out, they are all puppets and none really have any talent except for bull****. Sick of career politicians. at least she has had a real job. Gave you an example of shallow Albo is with his carrying on about the fuel reserve in 2020?. and no doing anything about it when he came to power. all muppets.

[Grumpy Old Nasho]

4 hours ago, facthunter said:

I suggest nearly ALL people think some Migration is Good for this Place

Yeah, SOME migration ... not hoards of third-worlders making a nation unrecognizable. 

[rgmwa]

41 minutes ago, Grumpy Old Nasho said:

I could see the writing on the wall, along with millions of other Traditional Aussies. 

What does a `Traditional Aussie' look like in your view?

[facthunter]

Good question. And how do they Behave with a few Beers in when their team has just won (or Lost) a local football Match.? Nev

[red750]

I saw a meme the other day of an Iranian family - a man with 3 wives and eleven kids. Their aim is to populate as much as possible and overrun the infidels. That's why they start marrying off the girls at age 9.

[Jerry_Atrick]

22 hours ago, facthunter said:

It's very good for scaring and stirring up People and where would Pauline be without it? Britain should have remained in the EU.  The far right is More of a Menace than anything else. People today don't know much about HITLER. It's too Long ago.. Racism is Not a good Basis for anything. We all bleed and feel Pain and Protect our Kids. Looks at the damage that has been done in the name of a Religion down through the ages all of which are Patriarchal.  Nev

It's one of the reasons I started this thread - because IMHO, there is a lot of hyporcisy on both sides of the argument. 

 

For instance, what exactly is good for scaring the nation? |Immigration itself, or discussing it? If the latter, I think that suppressing it is playing into the far right. If the former, not discussing it is playing into the far right. It's lose/lose. But discussing it; hearing peoples' grievances as well as peoples'praise for it - whether real or perceiv ed - is important, and hopefully (very wishful thinking) cutting through the BS and getting to the facts will refine what people think abouit it. Suppressing or dismissing it is just playing into the ideologues' playbook. 

 

Another example is by what measure should Britain have stayed in the EU. Would it have seen Britain prosper or would it have slowed the decline? It is easy to state an opinion, but if you think that those who voted Brexit are racists, my observations are very different. Yep, there were some, but most were fed up and it was a protest vote. It hasn't helped them, but a lot of people who voted for it are not really affected either way, as they are largely economically and socially left behind. So, you could argue they were votinhg to make it harder for those who seemed to dispropritionately benefit. Migrants were getting the blame, and they still are - I will concede that.. but that is because the other side simply dismiss the anti-immgration rhetoric as nonsense without actually addressing it.  IMHO, there are quite a few reasons for it. 

 

17 hours ago, Grumpy Old Nasho said:

It's not so much "immigration", but "mass immigration" created by the conjoined major parties. They ignored public opinion and went ahead with it anyway. Immigration was no longer included in the democratic process, and still isn't. You can have your say, but it inevitably falls on deaf ears. Things might be changing though, with the high cost of living and shortage of housing, the pig-headed major party politicians can't help but hear rumblings from nearly every sector of the broader community.

 

Mass immigration drove me to support One Nation, that's how it affected me. I will not support or vote for parties who find it convenient to gang up against the Public for selfish reasons. They promise sweeteners at election time, but the issue of immigration is completely off the table. As the major parties lose their influence over the general public, as is happening now, we'll get a chance to gain power over them and tell them what we want, not what they want all the time.

 

Mass immigration is not doing what it is intended to do, making us stronger, no, it is making us weaker in every respect you can think of. Why do we have a trillion dollar debt? Why do we have so much drug crime? Why is the nation split into 200 different groups with 200 different flags? Why did we have an anti Semitic "Bondi", and blocked streets full of River to the Sea people?

 

We shouldn't go around with blinkers on. Take them off and look around.

 

What do you define as mass immigration, exactly? Is it purely numbers coming in, or numbers coming in from a specific country/culture? 

 

There are always waves of cultures/countries coming in.. But their overall numbers remain relatively low - less than 1/2 the toital immigration number. As a percentage of the population, it barely registers - at about 0.25 of a percent.. and even at the height of the migration intake after COVID, out net immigration remained relatively constant, which, since 2020 (so immedately after COVID with the big numbers of immigrants), peeaked at a little over 140,000 in total. Thats is 0.5% or 5/1000ths of the population.  That, to me, is not mass immigration. And most of the people that emigrated after COVID were not Australian born according to AI.. so it is not a matter of losing "traditional" Aussies to non-"Traditional Aussies" in the net migration numbers. It even pours boiling water over the argument that immigration is the main driver fdor rental and house price increases.  

 

In fact, Australia's housing prices are more to do with overseas buyers who don't live here, usually looking for ways to launder money thanks to Australia's weak anit-money laundering laws; the generous tax concessions for residential invetors, increasing populations in the cities due to economic factors and low density housing that is having a bigger impact than < 150k new people a year.  Unless Australia is so short of land, like, I dunno, Ireland, that it simply cannot cope. 

Be that as it may, you haven't said how it affects you personally - how are you worse off because of immigration?

 

5 hours ago, facthunter said:

The Aborigines never had flags. That's a Modern "thing". I suggest nearly ALL people think some Migration is Good for this Place. Hanson is just a $#1t stirrer controlled by Merde ock and Gina. Take your blinkers off. She has YOU fooled. GON, when Trump Falls over Like Orban Has what Idol will she Pin Her Standard to. Trumps days are Numbered.  30 years of not much  is Pauline's Legacy. There's not much Talent there . she is a Puppet, obligated to others. Nev

They didn't have flags, but they had a hierarchy of soverign identification, the main one I recall was totems. pre-European First Nations was a sophisticated social and territorial structure, designed around moeity. A flag is nothing but an identification oif a people - and First Nations had tiered approach that allowed clear identification of mobs, clans, and the like. And there were very clear rules about engaging the other mob/clan/etc.

 

And yes, I agree with @Siso - they are all puppets of their sponsors.. Though the popularity of a leader/cabinet may temper it. 

 

1 hour ago, Grumpy Old Nasho said:

Voting is not the only way to support One Nation, there's plenty of other ways. But if they field a candidate in my electorate, I'll start voting again. Mass immigration with all it's anti everything Australian, was one of the reasons I stopped voting years ago. I could see the writing on the wall, along with millions of other Traditional Aussies. No one I talk to out here supports mass immigration, they're quite angry about it.

What.. how can mass migration - however you define it - be anti-Australian. Modern Australia was founded on it - and a hostile version of it, to boot. I would argue it is the very essence of Australian., especially if yoou look at our society when I was a kid, let alone today. 

 

1 hour ago, Grumpy Old Nasho said:

Yeah, SOME migration ... not hoards of third-worlders making a nation unrecognizable. 

The facts don't add up to your perception.. there ain't hordes.. And of those "hordes", a disproportionate nunmber go on to contribute well beyond the 9 - 5 worker. 

 

52 minutes ago, rgmwa said:

What does a `Traditional Aussie' look like in your view?

In my view, tradiitional Aussies are First Nations people; tough and able to survive and thrive against a fairly inhospitable environment full of all sorts of nasties; looking out for each other, and ensuring everyone works together. Yep, they had their issues, but they also embodied a lot of what we like to think traditional Aussies do. 

 

Modern Aussies are the ones who started with the mass-immigration of the 1770s and beyond. They are not just the British - but other Europeans, the Chinese, the Afghans - all early arrivals that have grown and shaped this country and successiuve waves. When I was a kiod, it was Italians and Greeks, followed by the Vietnamese and then the Turks. After WWII, it was the Eastern Europeans, presumably Jews; now we are welcoming Africans, Indonesionas, Middle Easterns, etc. It all eventually blends. Each cultural wave, when it firt arrives, tends to stick to their home traditions and it is usually the next generation that mix and further adopt their new home's culture. 

 

 

Yes, there have been events like the Bondo shooting, which is horrific and arguably and imported issue. But at the same token, most of our shooting events have been home grown; and continue to be so.

 

The question for me is how to better integrate the first wave into our wider community. 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Just now, red750 said:

I saw a meme the other day of an Iranian family - a man with 3 wives and eleven kids. Their aim is to populate as much as possible and overrun the infidels. That's why they start marrying off the girls at age 9.

If it is representative of the wider population to get their facts from memes, then dog help humaity - we are all done for. 

[Grumpy Old Nasho]

1 hour ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

The question for me is how to better integrate the first wave into our wider community.

Very sensible question ... but major party politicians wouldn't know what you're talking about.

[Marty_d]

GON, what are one nation's actual policies?

[Litespeed]

17 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

GON, what are one nation's actual policies?

 

What Gina wants

[willedoo]

1 hour ago, Marty_d said:

GON, what are one nation's actual policies?

According to their website, this is what they have as immigration policy:

 

Deport 75,000 illegal migrants because Australia’s immigration laws must be enforced, not ignored. Visa overstayers, illegal workers, and unlawful non-residents undermine national security, drive down wages, and take advantage of public services meant for Australians.

 

Cut immigration by over 570,000 people from current Labor levels by capping visas at 130,000 per year to ease pressure on housing, wages, and infrastructure.

 

Stop the skilled visa rorting that allows cheap foreign labour to undercut Australian workers.

 

End the student visa loopholes that turn study into a backdoor to permanent residency or low-wage labour.

 

Stop the Administrative Review Tribunal being abused with endless, weaponised appeals that clog the system and delay rightful deportations. Immigration enforcement must not be held hostage by legal loopholes.

 

Reintroduce Temporary Protection Visas a proven, effective policy that prevents permanent residency through the back door and deters illegal arrivals.

 

Deport any visa holder who breaks the law. Weak law enforcement policies have put Australians in danger for too long. If you commit a crime, you lose your visa and the right to stay.

 

Introduce an eight-year waiting period for citizenship and welfare, ensuring new arrivals contribute before they take.

 

Refuse entry to migrants from nations known to foster extremist ideologies that are incompatible with Australian values and way of life.

 

Withdraw from the UN Refugee Convention because Australia will not be dictated to by foreign organisations when deciding who we accept into our nation on humanitarian grounds

 

Marty, I think you could look it up yourself but sparring with GON wouldn't be the same if you did.

[Jerry_Atrick]

24 minutes ago, willedoo said:

Deport 75,000 illegal migrants because Australia’s immigration laws must be enforced, not ignored. Visa overstayers, illegal workers, and unlawful non-residents undermine national security, drive down wages, and take advantage of public services meant for Australians.

I don't fundamentally disagree with this, but noit for the reasons quoted. For me it is fairness. 75,000 illegal immigrants, even if all are working are not going to make a dent to wages, which are covered the the fair work act and collective bargaining agreements, anyway. Nor are they going to be able to claim public services with the exception of health and subsidised transport. What they will doi is take a few jobs under deprived conditions for them.  I am not sure how the undermine national security - except those working legally in foreign embassies. 

 

29 minutes ago, willedoo said:

Cut immigration by over 570,000 people from current Labor levels by capping visas at 130,000 per year to ease pressure on housing, wages, and infrastructure.

That was one year which was after COVID as a ballon.. and it is a gross migration, not net migration figure. Those numbers are dropping to normal levels already. Note, most of our immigration is for skilled migration visas, of which there is a chronic shortage (thankfully; even at my age, I should be able to get a job).

 

 

30 minutes ago, willedoo said:

Stop the skilled visa rorting that allows cheap foreign labour to undercut Australian workers.

I agree with this; I can't remember the Visa numbers (419?) This was introduced by the Coalitiion specifically to provide cheap overseas labour to theirt sponsors in lieu of Aussie labour. 

 

34 minutes ago, willedoo said:

End the student visa loopholes that turn study into a backdoor to permanent residency or low-wage labour.

This is the same issue as we have in the UK. Whilst I philosophically agree with this, Australia has a chronic skills shortage, which they have to import. So, may as well use the people we have trained. 

 

Note, on skilled migration, it has to be tempered to balance developing talent locally, keeping salaries real, and making sure the economy continues. It is a balancing act. that some governments don't come close to performing. 

38 minutes ago, willedoo said:

Stop the Administrative Review Tribunal being abused with endless, weaponised appeals that clog the system and delay rightful deportations. Immigration enforcement must not be held hostage by legal loopholes.

 

Reintroduce Temporary Protection Visas a proven, effective policy that prevents permanent residency through the back door and deters illegal arrivals.

On the first one, I have no idea. In the second, is that not available already? Usually TPVs result in permament residency when it is proived that the person subject to it will be under the same or dsimilar threat for a sustained period of time. 

 

39 minutes ago, willedoo said:

Deport any visa holder who breaks the law. Weak law enforcement policies have put Australians in danger for too long. If you commit a crime, you lose your visa and the right to stay.

We have to be careful with this.. Very populist, but let's face it, the Bondi hero who disarmed one of the shooters was on bail or something, wasn't he? I think this should be qualified by indictable offences and even then, of certain types. If someone shoplifted something small, for example, would that really be cause to deport them? Given nothing happens to locals who do it, It is a value judgement.

 

42 minutes ago, willedoo said:

Introduce an eight-year waiting period for citizenship and welfare, ensuring new arrivals contribute before they take.

Again, this is a great soundbyte as people think of unemployment benefits cheats, etc. But ewhat happens if someone is a permanent resident waiting for citizenship in an average job and suffers a car accident not their fault and can't work for 12 months. Are they to be denied public health services (a benefit), unemployment benefit, etc; Or do we make them destitude? IMHO, once they or their family pay taxes, they are eligible. Simples. Do we make locals wait 8 years of paying tax before they can claim benefits? This sort of policy assumes every migrant is here to abuse the syste,. IO am sure some are... but not all.. 

 

There may be some things you want to put limits on - e.g. child allowance (if that is still a thing), etc. I guess. 

 

46 minutes ago, willedoo said:

Refuse entry to migrants from nations known to foster extremist ideologies that are incompatible with Australian values and way of life.

I would prefer, if this is really an issue, potential migrants having to pay for a proper pschometric assesment or something. Some people may be leaving precisely for that reason and they want nothing to do with such ideologies. In fact, they would be quite opposed to extremism and vocally so.  Where this is coming from, with respect to Pauline is the ME, and there are many more Imans in the country than the one or two hate preachers. Of course, the press doesn't focus on that side of the coin. 

 

49 minutes ago, willedoo said:

Withdraw from the UN Refugee Convention because Australia will not be dictated to by foreign organisations when deciding who we accept into our nation on humanitarian grounds

The evidence would suggest that, regardless to Australia being a party to the refgee conventions (not just one), it does already not fulfil its obligations, because being a signatory to an international convention is just that;  your a signatory. International pressure may be applied to Australia, but so far, Australia has ignored it. A convention is only legally binding when it is imputed in local law, by an act of parliament; and in the same way, we can change what we will do, and then repeal it... It is our law that determines what we do and what we don't do - if we do anything - under an international convention. Again, a great soundbyter to get support, but of no practical significance.