Middle East conflict

[Jerry_Atrick]

BTW, to be clear, I am not a blind supporter of Israel, either. 

 

It is very sad that Israel has chosen the death penalty in this case, because it is very open to abuse in my humble opinion, and it is a retrograde step for a reasonably progressive democracy, despite what peoples' perception of Israel is. 

 

Sadly, like the rest of the world, Israel is turning more right wing - but I think you can hold the divisionary disposition of the world at the moment as a cause of that - the world going more right wing - not just Israel. Despite this, and the fact that Hamas (and other Islamic states - i.e. Iran) has captial punishment - summarily dispensed - for merely speaking against the regime or religion, Israel should abandon this latest development because a) two wrongs don't make a right; b) it is open to abuse of human rights; and c) it is against the very notion of a progressive democratic country. Israel is doing itself no favours. However, I am guessing there is enough popular support to carry it, which would also be a shame. However, given Israel is under constant attack - physically by its nearby enemies and globally by those who seem to have a bias against Israel despite the facts, it is little wonder they are starting to be more brash.

Edited 12 hours ago by Jerry_Atrick

[Litespeed]

Jerry, 

 

Israel is a murderous Zionist state that openly commits war crimes and murders thousands of innocent civilians.

[Siso]

There is a saying "Don't poke the bear"

[Marty_d]

1 minute ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

What are the terrorist attacks Israel have committed?  

Targeting of journalists, hospitals, civilian infrastructure, NGOs and UN peacekeepers in the Gaza invasion for starters. 

 

[facthunter]

That Hanging death Penalty may Possibly not pass Muster within Israel. The Last person  they did that to was Adolph Eichman. Watch this Space.  Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

 

 

22 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

Targeting of journalists, hospitals, civilian infrastructure, NGOs and UN peacekeepers in the Gaza invasion for starters. 

 

Sorry... What?

 

OK.. the milita of a country invade your country... but don't target your military - but your defencelss and well separated from the military civilians.. illegally under intenational law; you legitimately retaliate and target their mitilary assets, which they  hide behind cilvilan assets - and you target their military assets legally, but because they use civilians aas part of their defence (which is not really even contested by them) and, by the way being totally legal under the rules of war as long as they are targeting legitimate military assets - and Israel is the terrorist?

 

Yeah - they took the West Bank - but not through some arbitrary decision - it was the resuilt of a war waged on them.. Or have I missed something. And in exchange for peace, the Palestinians (which even Arabs don't class as a separate Arabic identity) were offered 96% of it back, but rejected it at the last minute.. Now, there are tensions, because Ramalla is a Palestinian controlled territory on the West Bank, and tensions in a war between Israel and Gaza are going to surface. Is it right? No! But no country has never been hostile to those of "enemy" ancestry in their territory (which I know, the UN doesn't sanction, but at the end of the day, it was territory siezed as a result of a war perpetrated on Israel).

 

And did they actually target the journos and NGOs, or was it a) friendly fire or b) mistaken identity - IN A WAR, FFS..  I think in Kosovo (BTW, an illegal war as there was no direct threat to NATO states, and there was no UN security resolution, and humanitarian reasons ions not a defence), journos and NGOs were killed by firendly fire, as was that in Afghanistan, and the list goes one. In fact, the betrayal of firendly Afghans by the west doesn't need to be brought up again, eoither. 

 

What terrorism did Israel actually commit. Where, without procvocation, did they go in and wantonly kill people as a country/defence force? 

 

Sorry dude - you and I live in a different world when it comes to this. (Apologies, that was condascending and I take it back)

 

You may disagree with what they are doing - and I don't agree with it all, either, but it is not terrorism.

 

 

 

Edited 12 hours ago by Jerry_Atrick

[facthunter]

Can we take that as a comment? Depriving people of the essentials of Life and allowing no reporting?  Nev

[willedoo]

Good to hear a voice of reason. Some of the comments here are starting to get a bit rabid.

[Grumpy Old Nasho]

This teen in the news tonight is muslim. He was accompanied by his muslim mother as was seen on the TV news. He's charged with possessing terrorist material, a weapon, and online support of ISIS. His sentencing is coming up soon. Probably only a suspended sentence I'm betting.

 

https://www.9news.com.au/national/teenager-charged-with-allegedly-possessing-extremist-material/1d1dfa97-59a8-4076-9fa8-5c45fa5ea7c7

[Jerry_Atrick]

22 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Can we take that as a comment? Depriving people of the essentials of Life and allowing no reporting?  Nev

Allowing no reporting - by Israel? Are you serious?

 

Journos were killed.. Were they actually targetted as journalists? How much reportng do you get from Iran once the protests started and before the war? What evidence do you have that journalism is systematically suppressed where it is physically safe (i,e, they are not going to be directly in the line of fire) by Israel?

 

I have to admit, I am flummoxed by these assertions.. But if you can provide evidence to support that position, I am fine.. otherwise, are they not rabid?

 

Re essentials of life - it is the UN who had decided not to enter Gaza nor allow the other organisation to distribute their supplies.. on what premise? As I understand, it is alleged what UN essentials were being distribnuted were ending up in Hamas' hands largely and not the people. Of course, that could be wrong because the press don't report these things all the time. 

 

But, that is my point.. A lot of aspersions are cast with scant evidence, and sensationalistic reporting by the very journos Israel are supposed to suppress.  The default position is Israel is wrong, and I will challenge it if the facts don't fit (on anything). Sorry. I am an argumentative SoB. 

 

BTW, we all criticise the Iran war, and rightly so given the US objectives. But so far, the one Iranian I know (and it is only one) is still supportive of it. And I prefer to take people with their experience of it on the ground than us armchair experts. Oh, and by the way, she thinks Israel has gone too far on accoasions, but is generally supportive of Israel. They give her reiligion a home free of prejudice, which cannot be said of the Iranians, where the religion was born. 

Edited 11 hours ago by Jerry_Atrick

[facthunter]

 GON. Nazis and  Ultra right wing nutjobs don't bother you? The Level of Guns  in the society?  Violence against Women? News is fear and Hate. Good things don't get reported.. Doesn't sell Papers or get your attention.. Hey look at this ANOTHER Muslim.. Nev

Edited 11 hours ago by facthunter
clarity

[Jerry_Atrick]

There  have been as many white people in Aus, and nore in the US committing terrorism as Muslim. 

 

Sadly, any anti-solcial behaviour is not the preserve of one or a subset of nationalities or religions.

Edited 11 hours ago by Jerry_Atrick

[facthunter]

Jerry I have to say that Rarely do I agree at all on your take on Politics. I think we view it from an entirely different Perspective. We don't all have to Be the same though but I have to Be honest. Your Posts are Lengthy and therefore hard to reply to'. Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

Sorry - I tend to post long as I try and give the background as to  why I take a position, and these areas are  rarely simple.. 

 

I also think, if you strip away the Israel thing, and the fact I don't think Labor (and Labour here) are doing enough for the people the purport tp represent although concede there are pratical challenges in doing so - we are probably more closely aligned than you think. 

Edited 10 hours ago by Jerry_Atrick

[Marty_d]

1 hour ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

 

 

Sorry... What?

 

OK.. the milita of a country invade your country... but don't target your military - but your defencelss and well separated from the military civilians.. illegally under intenational law; you legitimately retaliate and target their mitilary assets, which they  hide behind cilvilan assets - and you target their military assets legally, but because they use civilians aas part of their defence (which is not really even contested by them) and, by the way being totally legal under the rules of war as long as they are targeting legitimate military assets - and Israel is the terrorist?

 

Yeah - they took the West Bank - but not through some arbitrary decision - it was the resuilt of a war waged on them.. Or have I missed something. And in exchange for peace, the Palestinians (which even Arabs don't class as a separate Arabic identity) were offered 96% of it back, but rejected it at the last minute.. Now, there are tensions, because Ramalla is a Palestinian controlled territory on the West Bank, and tensions in a war between Israel and Gaza are going to surface. Is it right? No! But no country has never been hostile to those of "enemy" ancestry in their territory (which I know, the UN doesn't sanction, but at the end of the day, it was territory siezed as a result of a war perpetrated on Israel).

 

And did they actually target the journos and NGOs, or was it a) friendly fire or b) mistaken identity - IN A WAR, FFS..  I think in Kosovo (BTW, an illegal war as there was no direct threat to NATO states, and there was no UN security resolution, and humanitarian reasons ions not a defence), journos and NGOs were killed by firendly fire, as was that in Afghanistan, and the list goes one. In fact, the betrayal of firendly Afghans by the west doesn't need to be brought up again, eoither. 

 

What terrorism did Israel actually commit. Where, without procvocation, did they go in and wantonly kill people as a country/defence force? 

 

Sorry dude - you and I live in a different world when it comes to this. (Apologies, that was condascending and I take it back)

 

You may disagree with what they are doing - and I don't agree with it all, either, but it is not terrorism.

 

 

 

Jerry, I agree with you most of the time, but it really looks like you have a bit of a blind spot when it comes to Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_journalists_in_the_Gaza_war

If they killed almost 300 journalists "by accident" then they must be the most inept military ever. So which is it? 

[Jerry_Atrick]

I appreciate that and there can be the perception of a blind spot given what I wrote. Working now, but will respond more fully later. I wasn't aware of the Turkish journalist attack, but will do some research on it (Wilipedia can't be taken at face value and one event does not necessarily mean a systematic targetting). I am not saying Israel is perfect or should not be held to account.. I am saying there seems to be a lot levelled at it which is more based on belief than fact. 

 

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Jerry_Atrick

[pmccarthy]

Too  much antisemitic nonsense here. Why accept the propaganda of inherently evil regimes?

[rgmwa]

6 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I appreciate that and there can be the perception of a blind spot given what I wrote. Working now, but will respond more fully later. I wasn't aware of the Turkish journalist attack, but will do some research on it (Wilipedia can't be taken at face value and one event does not necessarily mean a systematic targetting). I am not saying Israel is perfect or should not be held to account.. I am saying there seems to be a lot levelled at it which is more based on belief than fact. 

It probably depends what you mean by `terrorist attacks'. I don't think the Israelis are terrorists but their relentless killing of the ordinary civilian population in Gaza and the property destruction they have carried out to make the place virtually uninhabitable borders on genocide. Netanyahu would certainly like to get rid of all the Palestinians, both in Gaza and the West Bank. Of course, most of Israel's neighbours would like to get rid of the Israelis too. Nevertheless, as far as Gaza is concerned, Israel's reprisals against the Palestinians for Hamas's October 7 attack have gone well beyond what Hamas did to them. Also, when it comes to carrying out targeted assassinations, the Israeli intelligence services are pretty ruthless and efficient.