There isno god/s

[old man emu]

6 hours ago, onetrack said:

O.K., I'll step in with my interpretation

 

I find it hard to rebut what Onetrack has said. There are some facts that I feel he has got wrong, but those errors don't destroy his argument. It is true that the Old Testament starts as a typical Creation story that all cultures possess. After that it becomes a cultural history of the Hebrew people. It is the story of their interactions with other cultures in the Near East as well as a library of their social knowledge and literature. Perhaps when Onetrack talks of Almighty God and Satan, he is including Satan in the "no other gods" which are unnamed in the First Commandment. 

 

Every religion has the same basic tenets:

1. There are powerful spiritual entities.
2. These entities have the same behaviours as Man.
3. There are power levels amongst the entities.
4. Man is one of these entities, but at a much lower power level.
5. The most powerful entities make the rules for Mankind to live by.
6. The entities require Man to make expressions of respect.
7. Some less powerful entities break the rules and try to entice Mankind to break them as well.
8. If Man lives by the rules of the powerful ones, then, despite the death of the physical body, the spiritual entity will continue to exist for ever in the company of either the powerful (good) entities or the less powerful (bad) ones.

If you don't believe in Tenet No. 1, then you don't believe in religion. However, there is no stopping you in borrowing from what has been developed to satisfy Tenet No. 5.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Well Onetrack and OME, you deserve an award for the best support of religion I have ever seen. Much better than the stuff I heard at sunday school for sure.

But personally, I have never had any psychic experience at all and I honestly think that those who do have problems inside their own heads.

Getting back to religion, one good question is " Why do those powerful spirits behave to us as if they were non-existant?"

Surely it would not break too many natural laws for one or the other to appear to all of us. After all, they have appeared throughout history to certain favoured people ( those who I suspect are crazy ).  They should appear to scientists like Dawkins in front of a big audience.

But please tell them to avoid television on account of how editing can make miracles appear to happen.

 

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

OME, you deserve an award for the best support of religion I have ever seen.

I don't necessarily support Onetrack, apart from his right to believe in a god, and my right to not make a decision one way or the other.

 

All I was doing was looking to see if there were any provable errors in what he said. After that I set out a list of basic factors that religions want to satisfy. 

[willedoo]

1 hour ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

But personally, I have never had any psychic experience at all and I honestly think that those who do have problems inside their own heads.

Bruce, with all due respect, you couldn't be more wrong. You're using basic human logic that says 'if I haven't experienced it, then it can't be true'. It's flawed logic.

[Jerry_Atrick]

I don't agree that Bruce has got it wrong - what he has said is he has never experienced a psychic experience - which is fact, and therefore he honest thinks that others that do, to paraphrase, are reading into it something it isn't. The latter is opinion as opposed to an absolute statement of fact. We all develop opinions, no matter how flawed, based on the facts (and belief/vale systems) we have at the time.

 

However, I would invite some concrete proof to rebuff.. At present, from memory (I haven't done the research to back it up), I read an article where the number of psychics who contributed rather than hindered solving crimes was not too great. Given they experience psychic episodes all the time, I would take that as evidence that it is not the most reliable thing on earth. However, I haven't done my research, so would be happy to be corrected.

 

I am personally not spiritual; I try and sift through the BS (otherwise known as propaganda) to comprehend the world around me; I try and look to the facts rather than hyperbole. So, for me personally, spirituality is a highly individual thing - not bound by religion, but of which for many people, organised religions impresses upon - rightly or wrongly. It is whatever gives people comfort - whether it takes the form of religious belief or simply a state of mind, say about the supernatural - or anything else. As long as it doesn't harm others, who is anyone to judge or deny a right of someone else to their spirituality?

 

There is so much we still don't understand about our universe, it is entirely feasible that the abstract what we can to comprehend the unknown. Do I believe there is an omnipotent god? Not in the way religion and mankind embodies them - that they are just more powerful versions of man, with special power. As Bruce says, if they still exist, then why don't they make themselves visible. So until some material evidence appears that they exist, I am a firm disbeliever of these gods.

 

Do I believe there is some superior spiritual being or beings, and beings, and that there are different dimensions and parallel universes? Nope, but I am open to the possibility, because, while we can't prove they exist (or existed), we also can't prove they didn't. and there may be no reasonable way to prove in the same way a mankind omnipotent should be able to reveal him (or herself.. there are, however, a few godesses I have seen in my time).

 

For about 3 years I went to an upstanding Anglican school in Melbourne. I recall getting into a bit of a debate with the English teacher, a man whom I admire to this day. He made a statement in class that if one is walking in the desert and finds a dropped watch, you know than man was there.. But what if you found some rose petals? It was year 8, and my response, was, a careless florist, which didn't quite fit his narrative.. He then went on to castigate me and educate me that god was around us all, etc., etc., When I asked how did he know, he really got angrey, because, to him, it was as plain as the nose on my face - "You're here, right? You are a creation of god!". Well, I ended up paying for my smart-arsery.. "No, sir.. My parents made me.. God may have made A & E able to procreate, as he has for all living things.. maybe he died not too long after that and there is no god?"

 

2 weeks detention ensued.

 

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Wille, what would you say about a guy who heard voices in his head that told him to kill his son? Personally, I would lock him up but it turns out that the three Abrahamic religions all go back to him.

 

[old man emu]

Debating the existence of gods is like searching for an Oozlum bird.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

I think the problem with debating the existence of god, is what is a person's vision, or embodiment of god. Googling the definition gives us this:

1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

2. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

 

But what about the ancient Greek and Egyptian gods, there were many.. I am an  atheist, and don't believe in salvation - when I am gone, that is it (for me, that is.. the world will keep spinning). I don't believe there was a conscience being that created all of this - at the moment. My son is a deist and believes a god, not embodied by religion, started it all, as there had to be some intelligence to. It's a compelling argument, but as I ask of him, then what intelligent occurrence created the intelligence occurrence that created all this? And so-on up the chain.

 

That is the difficulty I have of the existence of god/s...

 

However, my son counters - what created the forces that created this, as physics would have us believe? It, too, is a very good question, which is why I am open to the idea.. although in quantum physics, than an acceptance we have yet to discover all of the forces.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Jerry_Atrick

[old man emu]

Perhaps the best place to be in this deist -v- atheist debate is on the Cross Benches and to be a "Nescioist", from the Latin "I don't know".

[nomadpete]

Agnostic?

 

I don't like the sound of that word, as it sounds a little like an insult. Which it shouldn' t be.

 

All theories are good theories, until they are proven either right or wrong. Theist theories can't be proven until post lifespan of the theorisor, and so far only one individual is alleged to have reported back to the living, and that was a couple of thousand years ago.

 

However, theories do prove that people are thinking, which I think is a good thing.

 

[willedoo]

15 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Wille, what would you say about a guy who heard voices in his head that told him to kill his son? Personally, I would lock him up but it turns out that the three Abrahamic religions all go back to him.

 

Bruce, I would agree with you there. I should have made my post a bit clearer as I was specifically thinking of people who have had the experience of seeing a ghost. I don't consider all of them to have experienced something caused by a mental illness or psychotic episode. For sure, if someone who has had a long term interest in the paranormal, and who reads all the books, watches all the docos and follows that sort of thing all the time, if they suddenly saw a ghost then anyone could be sceptical that it was in their mind. Sort of like an extension of their obsession.

 

On the other hand, all around the world, many normal sane people have seen a ghost only once in their lives, and only for 30 seconds or a minute or so. Many of them have no track record of religious beliefs or interests in the paranormal, and have never had a repeat of the sighting. Sure, some wackos see ghosts, but a lot of normal sane people have had a fleeting experience. It's just that most of the sane ones are unlikely to talk about it as they know they will be met with scorn and ridicule from those who haven't had the experience.

 

When it comes to the sighting of ghosts, there's three main groups of people. Firstly, there are those who haven't seen one. Most of them don't believe they could exist. Secondly, a smaller number haven't seen one but have a belief they exist. Both those groups base their opinions on a belief. The first group also base it on their experience,  ie: they have a lifelong experience of not experiencing one. The third group, those who have experienced a sighting of a ghost (excluding the wackos, that is) are based on experience rather than belief. Whatever their belief was on the subject before the sighting is overtaken by direct experience.

 

In reference to the sightings, I find it hard to believe that those normally sane people are stricken down with a temporary delusional mental illness that only lasts 30 seconds, has never occurred before and has never happened again. If it was a mental problem, it would be a very rare and unique disease that would have been studied worldwide. Most mental illnesses I know of last longer than one minute. It just doesn't make sense that these people went mad for such a brief period, then had an instant recovery for the rest of their life.

[spacesailor]

Woooops

There are more second life people now than histoty has recorded.

ME included. ( I woke up in the mogue  ).

BUT

Do you Always counter, that ' death ' if not permanent, does,nt count !.

IF true then Jesus doesn,t count, as he too didn,t stay DEAD.

spacesailor

 

[willedoo]

11 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I am an  atheist, and don't believe in salvation - when I am gone, that is it (for me, that is.. the world will keep spinning).

Jerry, if it's any consolation, all the bits you're made of will still be there. The atoms won't disappear; they'll just go on to make up other compounds. Everything your body is made of will still exist. It's just that you'll be scattered around a bit.

Edited March 13, 2022 by willedoo

[Yenn]

Of course there is a god, but most of us call it Mother Nature. Darwin would be the first prophet of that belief. The main tenet of that religion is survival of the fittest.

[nomadpete]

18 minutes ago, willedoo said:

Jerry, if it's any consolation, all the bits you're made of will still be there. The atoms won't disappear; they'll just go on to make up other compounds. Everything your body is made of will still exist. It's just that you'll be scattered around a bit.

What?

You mean to say that I am totally composed of atoms that have existed for billions of years?

No wonder I feel so tired.

[old man emu]

6 hours ago, nomadpete said:

Agnostic? I don't like the sound of that word, as it sounds a little like an insult. Which it shouldn't' t be.

 

Technically, an atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a god, while an agnostic is someone who doesn't believe it's possible to know for sure that a god exists. Therefore an agnostic believes there may or may not be gods, just can't make a decision. It's possible to be both—an agnostic atheist doesn't believe but also doesn't think we can ever know whether a god exists. "Agnostic atheist" sounds like someone who has one foot in each camp.

 

I think that the camps should be Theist - who believes in gods, Athiest - who definitively don't, and Nescioist who are prepared to give up on the debate and just live by the rules of their society.

[Jerry_Atrick]

2 hours ago, willedoo said:

Jerry, if it's any consolation, all the bits you're made of will still be there. The atoms won't disappear; they'll just go on to make up other compounds. Everything your body is made of will still exist. It's just that you'll be scattered around a bit.

True - bits of me will still continue, but as a rotund whole, or in spirit, I will not...

 

Pity the poor substances that get my bits

Edited March 13, 2022 by Jerry_Atrick

[nomadpete]

No , OME, I rather think you missed my point.

 

An agnostic cannot prove belief in any god/s nor disprove it. Further, an agnostic doesn't really care either way.

 

It doesn't matter, since if a loving god exists, he/she will love, welcome us into eternity, regardless of the propaganda that we were subjected to during our life on planet Earth.

Edited March 13, 2022 by nomadpete
A simple comma can change everything

[nomadpete]

I am fascinated with the thought that all my atoms have been here since the big bang. That is more amazing than anything that my church teachings could offer.

Potentially, I have, in a atomic particle way, been part of countless creatures, even part of mountains or clouds, through the eons past.

 

[spacesailor]

AND now you know ' resurrection '.

I am , l was , l will be,  in the next life.

Such a pity we will Learn nothing.

spacesailor

 

[nomadpete]

I have learnt sooo much!

Amazingly much!

It is all just like a massive database inside my head.

 

 

 

 

(But it's a database with a jumbled index)

[old man emu]

31 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

(But it's a database with a jumbled index)

Our IT people have been tasked with looking into the database's FAT routines.

[nomadpete]

Error:

File Allocation Table missing.

Reboot or Format C drive?

 

 

I can't type C colon because this notsosmartphone changes it into a smiley emoticon!

😄
😄

Edited March 14, 2022 by nomadpete

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, nomadpete said:

Error:

File Allocation Table missing.

Reboot or Format C drive?

1. Turn it off at the wall plug
2. Wait five minutes
3. Turn it back on at the wall plug
4. Reboot the computer.

Fixes most problems.

[rgmwa]

Our daughter saw a ghost walking in front of our house once. She was about 14 at the time and this was about 7:00 in the evening as she was coming home, so although the sun was setting it wasn't dark. This apparition was male and walking toward her. As it got to within a few metres, she said it seemed to notice her and vanished. We were home at the time, and I went straight back out the front of the house with her as soon as she told us. She was pretty nervous but showed me where this apparition had come in from the verge then turned up the drive parallel to the house in the direction she was coming from. I believe she saw what she said she saw. Oddly enough, this was three days after a guy was shot and killed in a bikie incident at a house a short distance up the street. True story, so make of it what you will.

 

As far as religion goes, I'm a very lapsed catholic (small c). I have no idea what happens when you die, but I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised.  I suppose that makes me either an agnostic or an optimist atheist.