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This 'Diversity Quota' recruitment stuff is Really silly. ( IMHO )


Phil Perry
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  • 3 weeks later...

Poulton airfield is disused (as seems to becoming more common across the landscape): Poulton Airfield (disused). It didn't even come up as a disused airfield on skydemon - come to think of it, I don't think Skydemon displays disused airfields.. I am planning a flight up to Liverpool afte tthe summer hols, and I didn't see it on any of the flight guides I use.

 

As for Mr. hard-done-by, I bleedin well wouldn't have him in the force, either.. What a waste of a particulate physics graduate.. Oh yes, I can hear it now - his education will help him investigating crimes.. Well, maybe, but you don't have to waste a spot at a tertiary institution that someone else who may have gone onto a career in physics (or waiting on tables waiting for the job in physics - or at least become a trader or something) on becoming a copper.. Fair-diddly dinkum!

 

This positive discrimination thing just goes to show how thick the majority of people are.. I have been on the coal-face of such a policy and it simply means this.. get the best person for the job. If there is more than one person adjudged to be able to easily do the job, fit in well with the rest of the employees, etc. and there is a a person amongst those who is of the class one is targetting to bring into the organisation to improve diversity, then one is strongly encouraged to offer them the job. However, if there isn't one that competes with the others who have applied, don't give them the job and give the whte, middle-aged bloke the job instead (you get the idea). If we are after multiple people, and there are multiple people who fit the bill, get a good cross-section in.

 

We can moan it is not fair, but the reality is.. diversity is a good thing as the world becomes smaller - and what better way to get people to integrate and learn that we all have the same desires, wants and needs (like peace, want our kids to do well, be able to scream at Aussie rules umpires, etc etc - see Jeff Kennet's comments - as in what a twatter).

 

The problem is, thickos in organisational power take positive discrimination and, in a "Strop" (of Paul Hogan and more enviously, Delvine Delaney fame) tone, say "Derrr.. I have to employ gay transgendered muslim women who have converted to judasim (or vice versa) or no-one is gonna get the job to get the numbers up". That is not the case (or at least shouldn't be.. no doubt, though, as thickness permeates society, some diphead CEO will not doubt mandate this is the way it has to be). Problem is, this approach alienates and has the opposite effect of what we are trying to achieve.

 

Also - positive discrimination isn't supposed to last long nor result in a disproportionate number of "minorities" working at the expense of the majority - it is about brining in different cultrual outlooks, views, etc. to the workforce which a) promotes tolerance (something most western societies desperately need); b) allows companies to provide comfort to those monority groups and therefore tap into that market (or nt he case of the force, provide more credibility amongst minority communities), and I have to say, enrich all of us. As an example, there is a devout Muslim, Jew and a few devout christians on the team. They often talk about their religious beliefs; they get on very well and understand/embrace each other (well, not physically).. It is great to watch.. as an athiest lesbian... (I do like women, after all)..

 

 

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In all honesty, and without disrespect to serving police, having tertiary education in a field not associated with doing the job is a drawback. There are very few areas of policing where any sort of diploma or degree assists in the day-to-day function of a police person (Oh! Look at me being all PC!). The only worthwhile education for practicing police is the University of the Streets.

 

A Constable's tertiary educational ability to observe policing procedures and formulate improvements is frowned upon by everyone of superior rank, unless the Constable can wrangle a transfer to a specialist unit. Otherwise, all the Constable is directed to do is get the drunks off the street; direct traffic around vehicle crashes, and take reports of break-ins. For someone who has been educated to think, this is mind-numbing work.

 

From my experience, a Constable needs to have a deep knowledge of the Crimes Act, The Drug Act, the Traffic Act and the Bail Act, plus a working knowledge of other Acts that might be applicable to the location where they work. The other skills they need are those used to calm a situation with their mouths, and the ability to express themselves in writing at a level that is understandable to a person with a Year 10 education.

 

 

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Page 3??? They moved them on me... no wonder I can’t find any!

I believe they no longer have the page 3 girl in some UK tabloids, mainly because if you want to look at tits & ass then there's this fantastic thing called the "internet".

 

 

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"We can moan it is not fair, but the reality is.. diversity is a good thing"

 

Compulsively discrimination, how is it fair, to sack five different national whites men, to give five Pakistanis their job.Even the company almost folded, & had to employ extra training officers ( from a university) to get them able to make ANY product.

 

From 99% good product down to ZERO product, good or not !.

 

spacesailor

 

 

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In all honesty, and without disrespect to serving police, having tertiary education in a field not associated with doing the job is a drawback. There are very few areas of policing where any sort of diploma or degree assists in the day-to-day function of a police person (Oh! Look at me being all PC!). The only worthwhile education for practicing police is the University of the Streets.

A Constable's tertiary educational ability to observe policing procedures and formulate improvements is frowned upon by everyone of superior rank, unless the Constable can wrangle a transfer to a specialist unit. Otherwise, all the Constable is directed to do is get the drunks off the street; direct traffic around vehicle crashes, and take reports of break-ins. For someone who has been educated to think, this is mind-numbing work.

 

From my experience, a Constable needs to have a deep knowledge of the Crimes Act, The Drug Act, the Traffic Act and the Bail Act, plus a working knowledge of other Acts that might be applicable to the location where they work. The other skills they need are those used to calm a situation with their mouths, and the ability to express themselves in writing at a level that is understandable to a person with a Year 10 education.

Actually, I take back the thing about his degree being wasted. The met are recruiting more people to work on cybercrime, which is the fastest growing crime; and part of this requires well educated people,. However, reading the article, I am not sure that is the the role this fella was going for. But, the Daily Wail won’t let all the facts get in the way of a good story.

 

"We can moan it is not fair, but the reality is.. diversity is a good thing"Compulsively discrimination, how is it fair, to sack five different national whites men, to give five Pakistanis their job.Even the company almost folded, & had to employ extra training officers ( from anniversary) to get them able to make ANY product.

 

From 99% good product down to ZERO product, good or not !.

 

spacesailor

I don’t know who you’re referring to, but this may just be an example of what I mean. There is no law (at least over here) that mandates the workforce even has to be diverse; there is simply anti discrimination law. It’s just policy. Of course, there may be practical constraints - if you are a supplier mainly to government or larger corps, they may mandate in their procurement policy to favour employers with a certain level of diversity over others, but that is again - policy... If one wants to keep supplying them, though, one has to adjust their workforce, though..

 

But sometimes, diversity is difficult to achieve, I am involved in hiring for 3 positions. We have had mainly white men of different European nations apply; maybe 1/3 Indian/Pakistani. Of about 40 CVs, we only had two women apply; one was akin to a car salesperson applying for a mechanical engineering job and the other didn’t admit until the interview she could only work 3 days/week, when they had all been previously informed the project is already running late and requires a big commitment,.

 

I can honestly say, when we hire, we could not give a stuff about what colour, nationality, race, religion or sexuality they are. As long as the a) are competent and professional; b) carry themselves as such; and c) get the job done to the requisite quality.. that is all that matters (oh - yeah - and they aren’t disruptive to others)

 

 

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Actually, I take back the thing about his degree being wasted. The met are recruiting more people to work on cybercrime, which is the fastest growing crime; and part of this requires well educated people,. However, reading the article, I am not sure that is the the role this fella was going for. But, the Daily Wail won’t let all the facts get in the way of a good story.

 

 

I don’t know who you’re referring to, but this may just be an example of what I mean. There is no law (at least over here) that mandates the workforce even has to be diverse; there is simply anti discrimination law. It’s just policy. Of course, there may be practical constraints - if you are a supplier mainly to government or larger corps, they may mandate in their procurement policy to favour employers with a certain level of diversity over others, but that is again - policy... If one wants to keep supplying them, though, one has to adjust their workforce, though..

 

But sometimes, diversity is difficult to achieve, I am involved in hiring for 3 positions. We have had mainly white men of different European nations apply; maybe 1/3 Indian/Pakistani. Of about 40 CVs, we only had two women apply; one was akin to a car salesperson applying for a mechanical engineering job and the other didn’t admit until the interview she could only work 3 days/week, when they had all been previously informed the project is already running late and requires a big commitment,.

 

I can honestly say, when we hire, we could not give a stuff about what colour, nationality, race, religion or sexuality they are. As long as the a) are competent and professional; b) carry themselves as such; and c) get the job done to the requisite quality.. that is all that matters (oh - yeah - and they aren’t disruptive to others)

I also wondered why a man with such qualifications wanted to be a lowy 'Plod' officer Jerry. The original article was more pointedly about 'Diversity' recruitment, rather than 'The best candidate for the position'

 

I DO know a few Police officers personally One in particular is a Sergeant who will NEVER advance any higher as he refuses point blank to adopt the Common Purpose mantra and says things as they actually are. . . Kryptonite in today's Police 'Service'.

 

Ie,. . 'Old School Copper' Not wanted on voyage. QualifIed Pursuit car training Officer / examiner, Qualified Motorcycle Trainer / Examiner. . .

 

Treated like a useful Idiot according to his Wife, who is an Ex copper.

 

 

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Chasing Cyber-criminals does not require a Degree in one of the Computer Sciences. In fact, in employment terms, it is a waste of time to undertake such a degree, unless one want to be involved in research and development of IT. Remember this: Jane and Johnny start a Degree Course at age 18. The course content was written at least 18 months prior so that it could pass the approval criteria. So it's already nearly two years behind the current state of practice. Jane and Johnny spend three years minimum studying stuff that is based on "old technology". Their Degree course is mostly theoretical, with very. very little Real World experience. At the end of three years, they have a piece of paper and no employable skills in the workplace.

 

There's an old adage, "Set a thief to catch a thief". In terms of chasing Cyber-criminals, you need to employ people who have the practical hacking skills, or who really know the ins and outs of Social Media programs. The best candidate for this job is the apparent "loser" whose is always looking into a screen.

 

As for local General Duties police work, a Dixon of Dock Green is the person you want in your community.

 

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Dixon of Dock Green was a BBC television series about daily life at a London police station, with the emphasis on petty crime, successfully controlled through common sense and human understanding. The central character was a mature and sympathetic police constable, George Dixon, played by Jack Warner in all of the 432 episodes, from 1955 to 1976. Dixon was the embodiment of a typical "bobby" who would be familiar with the area and its residents in which he patrolled and often lived there himself.

 

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These days, there are few jobs which are as good as being a police officer. When I was a kid, it was different. But now, a police job is better than the dole or a taxi job for an unemployed civil engineering graduate.

 

So, are you going to say the graduate is less worthy of the job than a dropout?

 

 

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I'm not saying that a person who has a tertiary qualification is any better or worse than a person who has not. I am saying that the material studied in order to obtain the tertiary qualification is generally inapplicable to policing. Also the mere act of studying for a higher level qualification makes a person more likely to question the way things are done and to look for better ways and means. This results in clashes with the old hands whose stance is "we've always done it that way".

 

 

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I'll say it !.

 

A brickie gets full wages at 18. an apprentice gets theirs at 21, still below a brickies 18 y,o. wage.

 

all 0ld & outdated, I hope.

 

doctor's & lawyers excepted. Nurses included. Pollies pay themselves whatever they want, with a big golden handshake on retirement.

 

spacesailor

 

 

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Federal Pollies get their pay set by an Independent body . It generally just keeps pace with inflation etc The best Super scheme ever has grandfathered. That's why a heap of LNP types left what they thought was a sinking ship. To retire under the OLD rules..

 

The indentured Apprentice concept harks back to a period long ago where the "master" taught the skills of the trade/craft to the LUCKY person who got the opportunity. Our version is based on leaving school at age 15 and the PAY rates are somewhat inadequate, for older people but the employers do put a lot of effort into this generally, and those who do it should be commended.. Some of the younger kids leave in a tizzy as they can't pay their hotted up and lowered cars/utes off quickly enough.. It could be argued some need a dose of reality.and don't have a clue what "doing it tough" is.. Even though some poor individuals are finding out the hard way and don't have a roof over their head at night. I'm a great believer in the usefulness of a good TAFE education. It's generally more practical and realistic than some UNI courses. for the average person. Nev

 

 

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The apprentice system was a good way of providing cheap labour for a few years. I was a motor mechanic, but I managed to miss the apprentice route. I did an intensive course in the army, with no sweeping floors or spending hours de greasing equipment. I can't see any difference in my capabilities and those who were apprenticed. Of course the pay in the army was not much different from an apprentices, but it was all found and for those with ability it soon became higher than in civvy street.

 

 

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About 30 years ago, when I had a job, it was much harder to get an apprenticeship than get into many uni courses. My son did an apprenticeship and to this day he is financially ahead of schoolmates who did engineering. ( Not medicine or dentistry though , I reckon they make lots of money, but none of his mates got into those degrees).

 

We put on an apprentice at work ( a mechanic ) and had our choice of about 100 applicants, and the top 40 or so were really good , smart, hardworking kids.

 

 

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You really can't malign most youngsters. Given encouragement they will work hard when it's needed. The problem is that the philosophy of the education system has been that everyone should get a diploma or degree. Nowadays, when a person completes a trade orientated course they have met the competencies that enable them to be given a diploma of qualification. In the majority of careers, qualification at the diploma level is sufficient to begin the life of a tradesperson, as long as the person is willing to maintain a level of continuing learning, be it through attending courses or by gaining experience through doing the work.

 

If one was critiqued some professional degrees realistically, it would be found that the same skill level could be reached by completing a diploma. It's only the snobbishness of doctors and lawyers that demands a Degree level education in order to practise.

 

 

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After decades in trade related occupation i found that a lot of engineers were not practical in the application of what was engineered ,many times I had to resort to change what was drawn they would usually concede that it was the most practical way,my brother in law is an engineer but cannot use tools or even a lawn mower engineers that are practical are those that came off the shop floor my son is a boilermaker and is studying law so maybe we should get all lawyers,engineers to do a trade based cadetship first

 

 

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Degrees get dated. In many faculties If you are more than10 years you aren't really there. Pilots often get the shot in the arm with a career ending (if you fail) endorsement on a more modern type, Can be a stressful time for many, often done overseas. Nev

 

 

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@old man emu - going back a few posts - I agree - if the specialist plod is going to be just reviewing ISO27001 procedures when inviestigaitng crimes, they could be chimps. But, one of the things happenign here is the Met is recruiting reasonably good calibre people to do the investigation (I would think, alongside GCHQ at least - and now the new National Crime Agency, which is mostly about cybercrime). The idea is that they can investigate (i.e. research) incidents and trace the cultprits, amass the evidence and bring those responsible to trial - or if they are from less lawful jurisdictions, work with private enterprise in foiling further attempts.

 

And while I agree, the books they learn from are often more than a few years old by the time they graduate, things don't move quite as fast in the industry as you think. And the basic "principles" are the same as they were a couple of decades ago. For example, we were looking into an established theory (only waiting for the hardware to develop the capacity to support it) of neural networks in the early 90s/ Machine learning and AI of today are exactly what we were studying and developing as neural networks.. The internet prototocols, TCP/IP, has its backbone since the mid-70s (http://www.tcpipguide.com/free/t_TCPIPOverviewandHistory.htm) and from when I was last programming networks in the mod 90's, apart form speeds and sophistication of switches, routers and appropriate security software, the biggest development has been the (slow) move from IPV4 to IPV6. Of course, there have been advances in the types of encryptions,but we were doing, as I recall, 128bit encryption back then. HTTP has evolved as well... but it hasn't been transformed.

 

You're right though - a degree doesn't mean anyone knows it all day 1. Like a new PPL, it is a licence to learn and experience counts - but people have to start somewhere.. I don't know of a specific degree for cybersecurity/crime, etc.. but any comp science graduate, like any law graduate,etc. learned the practical application of their academic pursuit by doing it in the field. If someone just did their degree and didn't continue learning, they woould end up on the scrap-heap very quickly...

 

I stopped "professional" software development and systems/network management around 25 years ago.. I am past it now, but today, I would relish the chance to be an investigative researcher, especially trying to crack the dark web stuff.. there is a lot of really bad stuff that goes on in there.. It is the sewerage of humanity... and rather than waste time on Iran, governments should work together to dismantle this heinous underworld.

 

 

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At uni, in the 1960's , I learned how to work out if a building was strong enough with maths. And how to do surveying with brass theodolites and even more maths. All completely useless stuff these days.

 

There are computer programs to work out building stresses and GPS based stuff to do surveying. All better and faster than in my time. And the programs are so smart that they are not easily fooled by faulty inputs.

 

Even my Jabiru looks old fashioned these days, especially with its mechanical instruments.

 

I wonder what Captain Cook would have thought about a GPS. He was the only sea-captain who could work out his longitude by astronomy, but the GPS would mean anybody could do it faster than him.

 

Good thing they invented retirement huh.

 

 

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Those computer programs are great and I expect that most work nowadays. They didn't all work 25 years ago. Engineers come in good and bad form as I expect other proffessions do. I worked with many engineers and some were woefull. Having a computer program doesn't negate the willfull corner cutting of some building firms to make more money at the expense of the structural strength of the building. We now have at least two tower blocks that are possibly not safe for dwellings. When I was in the business I had running battles with builders who completely disregarded the engineers specification and tried to get away with shonky work.

 

One builder in Rockhampton has at last gone broke, but he got away with far too much, sometimes by engineers turning a blind eye.

 

 

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