The climate change debate continues.

[pmccarthy]

No one shows the holes in the ground to get the copper, rare earths, nickel, aluminium etc to make the turbines and new distribution lines. Much of that in third world countries with poor environmental controls. For example, this is an Indonesian nickel mine. Lots of other examples if you want them.

[onetrack]

Have you counted the number of open pit mines opened up, just to get gold? A pretty yellow metal that has a small level of industrial use - but which mostly gets uselessly socked away from sight for decades, after being mined! Alluvial gold mining is one of the most destructive methods around.

[facthunter]

Heat /light comes from the Sun and would be coming here anyway. OME.

  Gold also Uses ARSENIC and there's not a lot of gold and a lot of rock which releases other things,  when crushed that are not  nice for the environment.  Bauxite is essentially CLAY to make Aluminium but both that and copper ores are electrolytically refined using Lots of electricity.  . Much more that to just MELT them. Nev

Edited 1 hour ago by facthunter

[octave]

1 hour ago, pmccarthy said:

No one shows the holes in the ground to get the copper, rare earths, nickel, aluminium etc to make the turbines and new distribution lines. Much of that in third world countries with poor environmental controls. For example, this is an Indonesian nickel mine. Lots of other examples if you want them.

 

That picture isn’t actually an argument against wind turbines — it’s an argument for better mining standards, which applies to all forms of energy. Every energy technology, including coal, oil and gas, requires huge amounts of mined materials. Fossil fuels require steel, concrete, copper, and aluminium too — plus they involve continuous extraction of fuel forever.

Wind turbines, by contrast, require one-time mining, then they produce energy for 25–30 years with no fuel burned and no ongoing extraction.

 

1. Wind uses far less total mined material over its lifetime than fossil fuels.
Coal and gas plants need constant mining and drilling for fuel. Wind needs materials once, then no more digging.

2. Minerals for renewables are increasingly coming from countries with strong environmental and labour standards.
Australia, Canada, the US and Scandinavia are ramping up production of nickel, copper and rare earths precisely to avoid reliance on poorly-regulated mines. The solution is improving supply chains, not ditching clean energy.

3. Wind turbines don’t use many “rare earths” anyway.
Only some turbine designs use them, and manufacturers are rapidly shifting to rare-earth-free generators.

4. Fossil fuel extraction also happens in countries with poor environmental controls — and much more of it.
Oil spills, coal sludge, gas flaring, and abandoned wells cause orders-of-magnitude more environmental damage than the mining required for renewables.

5. Modern wind turbine materials are highly recyclable.
Copper, steel and aluminium — which make up most of a turbine — are recycled at very high rates, reducing mining needs over time.

6. Showing a single mine doesn’t prove wind is bad; it just illustrates that mining should be cleaner.
If the standard is “this technology requires mining,” then all energy sources fail. The real comparison is:

• Mining once for decades of clean power (wind)
  vs

• Mining and drilling  continuously and decades of pollution (fossil fuels).

Edited 59 minutes ago by octave

[Grumpy Old Nasho]

We suffered through a 30hr power outage Wed-Thurs, have to throw out $150 worth of food. This was just after paying my concession elec bill of $437, but which really ended up as $587.

 

Had it been paid outside of the due date, the bill would be $600 + $150 rotten food = $750

 

It's not solar or wind that determines if I get cheaper electricity, it's due dates.

 

Actually, it should be illegal to charge like that. Due dates shouldn't affect concessions.

[Marty_d]

Anything in a freezer should be ok for 30 hours without power, especially if you don't open it. 

Was it all in your fridge?