The climate change debate continues.

[nomadpete]

OME, can you help here?

[Marty_d]

Bated. Definitely. As in "abated" (lessened, reduced).

You wouldn't want baited breath. That would be fishy. And you might get hooked.

[onetrack]

She's in the pay of the climate change cultists! Note - "This channel accepted money or free things to make this video" .... !!  🙂 

 

If the ocean is turning to acid, how come it's still extremely alkaline? The climate change proponents keep producing evidence that is contradictory!

An ocean becoming fresher "at an alarming rate" (reportedly caused by climate change), can't be getting more acid! It's simply becoming slightly less alkaline!

Fresh water is neutral on the pH scale, so if the ocean is becoming "more acid", the pH should be dropping well below normal water pH level! (which is 7 on the pH scale, of course).

 

But then - articles such as the one below start carrying on about how ocean "acidity" will dissolve sea creatures shells, and create a dreadful acid environment - when the ocean is STILL highly alkaline, even though the pH may drop slightly under their "worst climate change scenario"! This is idiocy, and does nothing to reinforce their arguments for climate change.

 

https://oceanographicmagazine.com/news/freshwater-surge-threatens-southern-indian-ocean-conveyor-belt/

[pmccarthy]

9 hours ago, octave said:

Great.  Sabine definitely agrees with anthropomorphic climate change. I am happy to post a detailed assertions. 

I still haven’t watched it, just woke up, but you seem to misunderstand the argument. I certainly understand and accept the science behind ACC and believe there is an element of it in our current climate. The evidence says it is probably not a major factor in climate variability and in any case the current approach by our governments will have zero effect while destroying our economy. Climate modelling is unreliable and misleading.

[octave]

7 hours ago, onetrack said:

She's in the pay of the climate change cultists! Note - "This channel accepted money or free things to make this video" .... !!  🙂

I am not sure whether you are serious about this suggestion, or it is something you just believe or that you have evidence for?   In fact, she does cop a lot of flak. She strongly supports  Nuclear power and is supportive of renewables, but sceptical about how much this can achieve.  She also does not believe that net zero will ever be achieved. If she is in the pay of "climate cultists", then they are getting poor value for money.

 

7 hours ago, onetrack said:

when the ocean is STILL highly alkaline,

The ocean is mildly alkaline, with an average pH around 8.1 — not strongly alkaline. Since the Industrial Revolution its pH has dropped measurably due to absorbed CO₂. Even small pH shifts matter because the scale is logarithmic and marine organisms are sensitive to carbonate chemistry changes. So describing the ocean as “strongly alkaline” is chemically misleading and ignores well-documented acidification trends.

 

 

 

[kgwilson]

The problem with sending that video to your uncle who doesn't believe in climate change is that his pea brain is so entrenched he won't believe it and has no understanding of or care for science. Trump is a great example of one of these Uncles.

[nomadpete]

I accept that our forum debate boils down to discourse about the rate of ACC rather than the existence of it.

 

Which still validates the wisdom of reducing our atmospheric pollutants.

 

My opinion is that there is a big problem with the "Climate Change Debate" itself. 

 

Allowing the world media to argue obsessively over CO2, takes focus away from the multitude of other pollutions, which increasing slide under the radar. 

 

Industries (including mining, gas & oil) tend to use the most cost effective processes. They prioritise profit over human health.

 

Individual people are not motivated either.

 

[pmccarthy]

My comments on the Sabine video. I am just commenting what I understand at present without going back to research and justify each statement.

 

1  the way CO2 absorbs infrared has been known for well over 100 years. It might or might not be significant in the atmosphere. The arguments against it include atmospheric layering (no glass in the greenhouse walls) and the overwhelming effect of moisture and clouds.

 

2  Atmospheric CO2 has been increasing since measurements began (since 1982). But we don't know how variable and cyclic it is over longer periods. Ice cores show that it increases after warming, therefore is an effect of warming, and not a cause.

 

3  Oceans becoming less alkaline (not more acidic!) can be due to volcanic activity which is largely unquantified and much greater than "climate scientists" acknowledge.

 

4  The additional CO2 in the atmosphere may be from fossil fuels, the isotopic ratio is not proof yet. It can also be from land clearing, volcanism etc.

 

5 Stratospheric cooling must be considered in relation to the clouds and moisture problem at lower levels.

 

All of my statements can be backed up by scientific papers. There is a lot of debate about them all. It is prudent to say that we don't have the answers at present, that the science is far from settled. The greatest risk to humanity is that we condemn later generations to a world without adequate energy supplies, destroying our industrial capacity and standard of living. Of course this will not happen globally, but at present Australia is out there on its own destroying its infrastructure without having put a substitute in place.

[old man emu]

13 hours ago, nomadpete said:

OME, can you help here?

The correct phrase is bated breath, which means holding one's breath in anticipation, excitement, or fear.  I wonder what the record is for "waiting with bated breath"? 

 

If one uses mint flavoured toothpaste does one have baited breath?

[facthunter]

Bated Breath sounds like something you'd have to find a cure for.  None for Me Please.  Anyhow my Medical thing was done Over the Phone. I'm going to Need another OP on my right Hand. My brain hasn't changed. Now I have to peruse that Article. Lunch will be soon and do you know what happens IF you let lunch get Cold.? Nev

[facthunter]

 Listened tu it. Well Produced.  We need more of such articles. Constant  Peer review is part of science. Unfortunately a lot of people won't look at anything that contests their Already made up  Conclusions that they are comfortable with.  Some years ago, the Psychology Courses called it "Selective Perception"..  Nev

[nomadpete]

One thing is certain. There are many many variables in this debate.

 

For instance, how does anyone safely assert that sea levels are rising (or falling).

The sea sure aint flat, nor the same 'level' all around.

 

I suspect that modern satellite work is now busily averaging the numbers. But these are new algorithms, so cannot be used to compare ancient 'levels' with present ones. Following is from Wiki but is food for thought.

 

"There are also "holes" in the ocean. Gravity lows. Geoid lows. The surface of the ocean tends to be perpendicular to gravity. But the composition of our planet is not homogeneous, so the gravity field deviates from any idealized form you might expect (oblate spheroid, globe, etc).

The indian ocean geoid low causes sea level to be around 100 meters lower than it would be if it followed the WGS 84 geoid. NOTE: this does not mean that water is rushing in to fill the low. Gravity itself is distorted. The water is in its gravitationaly favorable location already. But by measuring gravity in that location, or by using high resolution surveying, the low can be detected."

 

Also, coriolis affect makes oceans tend to pile up more on their west side - & the amount will depend on ocean current strength.

 

And... 

every 1 millibar change in atmospheric air pressure causes a 1 cm change in sea level in the opposite direction. (Haven't fact checked that one)

 

However, all the water from those melting glaciers & icecaps must be going somewhere.
 

Edited Tuesday at 08:09 AM by nomadpete

[facthunter]

Plenty of Coastal erosion evident and coastal rivers Backing up. That's not imaginary but melting snow near Mt Everest will make about 2 million peoples survival difficult and that will affect all of us. Just WHERE are the signs that its NOT warming?  Nev

[onetrack]

Strong winds, accompanied by rapid barometric pressure changes, also blow water from one side of lakes, reservoirs, bays and harbours, to the other side. They're called "seiches". The water can really pile up. There are sieches on the Great Lakes, and on all salt lakes here.

[pmccarthy]

I just read an article a 1,500-year-old reindeer trap that was discovered in the mountains of Norway last year. It says: Increased snowfall during the sixth century reshaped migration routes and limited access to mountain regions. Heavier snowpack extended winter conditions and pushed communities to relocate hunting activity to lower elevations, where herds adjusted more easily.

The wooden trap and other objects have been frozen under ice ever since and have just emerged. In this location at least, temperatures have fallen to what they were 1500 years ago.

[pmccarthy]

Of course, I meant to write the temperatures have risen to what they were 1500 years ago.

[kgwilson]

Tell the people of Tuvalu that the sea level is not rising or for that matter Kiribati, the Marshall Islands and the Maldives. The highest point on Tuvalu is only 4.5 metres above sea level and the sea is already invading their lower areas making their gardens die from salination. It is forecast that Tuvalu will be completely uninhabitable by 2100.

[facthunter]

Adelaide Airport is  3 meters above MSL..  Nev

[old man emu]

I was watching a video filmed somewhere on the coast of Kent, UK. The site was right on the coast. It was really flat, marshy country. If sea level rose a few metres it would be underwater. Parts of London average an elevation of thirty-six feet above sea level.  

[onetrack]

Has anyone checked what is happening to Tuvalu as regards whether it is sinking into the Earth?

Parts of California and many other areas of the world have sunken dramatically over the last century or more.

Jakarta is sinking so rapidly under the weight of urbanisation and the drawing down of the aquifer under the city, the Indonesian Govt is abandoning the place and building a new capital on Borneo.

Mt Everest keeps on reaching for the sky, increasing height every year as it gets squeezed between tectonic plates.

None of the above continental movements are caused by climate change.

[facthunter]

That's true OT but so what? Well perhaps a lot of People don't know that continental Movement (drift) and tectonic plates overlapping has nothing to do with CLIMATE. Volcanic eruptions can alter climate significantly. Nev

[pmccarthy]

The Klimanachrichten article references a ZDF documentary by journalist Johannes Hano, which notes that locals in Tuvalu aren’t fearful of climate change. A 2018 study (Paul Kench, University of Auckland) found that 74 out of 101 of Tuvalu’s islands have remained stable or have actually grown in size, despite an approximate 15 cm rise in sea level over recent decades. This is attributed to coral-derived sediments being washed onto the islands by currents and storms, increasing their area

[nomadpete]

4 hours ago, onetrack said:

Has anyone checked what is happening to Tuvalu as regards whether it is sinking into the Earth?

Parts of California and many other areas of the world have sunken dramatically over the last century or more.

Jakarta is sinking so rapidly under the weight of urbanisation and the drawing down of the aquifer under the city, the Indonesian Govt is abandoning the place and building a new capital on Borneo.

Mt Everest keeps on reaching for the sky, increasing height every year as it gets squeezed between tectonic plates.

None of the above continental movements are caused by climate change.

That is why I tried to expose the complexity of attempting to call out the validity or otherwise of sea level rise.

The present satellite averaging measurements are the best we have. We are all aware of the risk of cherry picking a location that 'proves' a particular suspicion of acual sea level  then extrapolating it global levels.

Time will tell.

But changing our energy sources away from fossil fuels will improve global health regardless of 'global warming' effects. Isn't that worthwhile?

[kgwilson]

1 hour ago, pmccarthy said:

The Klimanachrichten article references a ZDF documentary by journalist Johannes Hano, which notes that locals in Tuvalu aren’t fearful of climate change. A 2018 study (Paul Kench, University of Auckland) found that 74 out of 101 of Tuvalu’s islands have remained stable or have actually grown in size, despite an approximate 15 cm rise in sea level over recent decades. This is attributed to coral-derived sediments being washed onto the islands by currents and storms, increasing their area

That was a paper written 8 years ago. Latest scientific research shows the sea level has indeed risen. Physical evidence confirms this. There are numerous reports also.

 

This is googles AI perspective.

Tuvalu faces an existential threat from climate change, with rising sea levels expected to submerge much of its low-lying land (average elevation <2 meters) by 2050 and render 95% of the nation uninhabitable by 2100. The sea around Tuvalu is rising at roughly 4-5mm per year, significantly faster than the global average. Saltwater intrusion is contaminating groundwater and crops, forcing the nation to consider adapting through land reclamation or potential digital migration.