octave Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Why is it PM that you give coal generators a free pass given that 3 were unavailable for maintenance or repair? I would bet if a wind farm went offline you would not be so generous. Every mechanical device needs to be serviced and from time to time repaired. in a large wind farm there would always be perhaps 1 or 2 turbines offline for maintenance. As nomapete points out the battery in SA is NOT designed to power the state it is designed to prevent blackout or brownout until alternative means come online. It has been successful at this and has made its owners plenty of money. The fact that expensive generators were used is a bit of a red herring. The point is that a grid with redundancy to ensure there is never a blackout or brownout is just way too expensive. We try to match our generation to our usage and any reserve capacity costs. The example I would use is this, I lived on a bush property for 20 years, there was no power to the block. We installed a quite modest solar power system. To design the system so that we would never run out of power would have been quite expensive back then. We had a backup generator, we sized the generator to be suitable for 95% of its backup needs. On the rare occasion I neede a welder I hired a larger generator. This was cheaper than buying a much larger generator and hardly ever using it. The cost of SA using for a short period of time diesel generators must be averaged over the year and must be compared economically with having other means on standby. Without the battery handling the load temporarily what other options exist? Given that you can not fire up a coal powered generator quickly I guess you need it to run consuming coal ready for when it is needed. The anti-new technology crowd seems to believe that we have reached the peak of technology and no further improvements are possible or even required. I do not believe we can shut down every coal burner and replace it with new tech straight away but I do think it would be foolish to build more given that it has to be financially viable over perhaps 60 years. What people will often say is that we should wait until renewables are superior and cheaper. The problem there is that if you take for instance the car, it was neither cheaper or more efficient than the horse at first. Governments subsidised the car by building road networks, they could see the potential. 1901 two brothers fly a few meters 1969 "one small step for a man" I well remember the first mobile phone, the battery was in a separate case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I lugged around an A510 military transceiver for a while, two heavy boxes around my waist. It had a big whip aerial but half the time it didn't work. Now the same function is the size of a cigarette packet! I am not against renewables, but I believe that coal technology is very good these days and could be serving us well if the pollies had not made it uninvestable for the last ten to twenty years. The only objection can be the CO2 emissions. As I don't accept that CO2 is doing any harm, I think we have condemned our kids and grandkids to a reducing standard of living for no good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeed Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 So you don't believe the massive holes in the ground and air pollution from mining it are a problem? Ever been to a coal mining area? What about the black lung for the miners? What about the highest levels of asthma in developed world? What about the estimated 10,000 deaths a year from pollution by coal power stations- far more than the road toll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomadpete Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 With respect, CO2 is definitely not the only harmful emission from coal. There is a long list of pollutants and toxins emitted. And emissions is not the only negative impact on people or the environment. It is very important to reduce ALL kinds of pollution. We are sh!tting in our nest with the amount of fossil fuel we are liberating! Sure, it would be foolish to try to abandon all polluting machinery (such as uotdated power stations) without allowing it to run its lifetime. It should amortise its initial investmant otherwise nobody will invest in the new technology,. But we are not even planning a transition. And that's neglecting the future of our children and grandkids, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeed Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Here is the latest article about the pollution from coal fired power, and note they have lower standards that even China now does. The NSW EPA just ticks the box and they get to continue to pollute with no new filtering required. https://www.canberratimes.com.au/environment/sustainability/scandal-nsw-coal-power-plants-will-kill-thousands-before-they-close-20181120-p50h66.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeed Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 https://www.canberratimes.com.au/environment/sustainability/inexplicable-power-plants-pollution-limits-weak-by-world-standards-20181106-p50ec8.html Check out the allowable pollution and we blame China as a polluter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomadpete Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I feel that my grandkids are likely to look a a picture of me (assuming that pictures from the past still exist after the great data crash of 2020)and mumble "grandad, what were you thinking?" Just as I look Back at my ancestors and wonder why they persisted with ridiculously primitive processes and attitudes that were the norm back then. We do have options to improve health, both individual personal health, and health of our surroundings. That may (hopefully) come through looking after our environment better than we have been doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Well said nomad. Just why my grandfather went to the first world war is a mystery to me. I know the early ones thought they were off on an overseas adventure holiday, but the later ones knew better. How stupid they were, think I with the benefit of hindsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 "On the rare occasion I need a welder I hired a larger generator. This was cheaper than buying a much larger generator and hardly ever using it." I have seen 12 volt battery's used for welding, with Standard electrodes. A solar system should have enough Battery reserve to do some serious welding. and I purchased for my yacht an alternator that does welding, costly thow. spacesaior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storchy neil Posted January 31, 2019 Author Share Posted January 31, 2019 light speed the wind and solar failed you been watching the lying Andrews gov crap or the abc 300,000 homes with out power cost to tax payers 1.1 billion dollars yes the coal fired gen did break down because could not keep up with demand I was actually watch the demand for power when the ssheeet hit the fan 24000 $ per mwh at peek you been sold a pig in a bag by the renewable shiiiit for brains it is possible to watch power pricing and use live litespeed I notice you use the Canberra times as a news source another full off crap paper as bad as the crap that the ABC cant tell the truth neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storchy neil Posted January 31, 2019 Author Share Posted January 31, 2019 I lugged around an A510 military transceiver for a while, two heavy boxes around my waist. It had a big whip aerial but half the time it didn't work. Now the same function is the size of a cigarette packet! pmcc i know what your saying the yanks carried mine cause I was a little bloke and they felt sorry for me neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 What's your news source, Neil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomadpete Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 The failures were - Two boilers developed leaks - a sign of poor maintenance during the last regular stripdown.- One generator out of service due to scheduled maintenance. The whole of the state generation capacity cannot hold up when two boilers fail. The problem was not caused by anything other than 'unplanned failure' of existing infrastructure. There are ways to plan the grid to cope with the situation. Queensland did, way back in the 80's when it built a pump storage hydro generator at Wivenhoe Dam. By current standards it isn't large but it would have easily filled the energy shortfall that Victoria had . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Really funny(if it wasn't so serious). Boiler tubes don't just fail suddenly. It's a deterioration over years. A coal power station has to have a life of around 60 years. and it doesn't go that long without a strict maintenance regime. 3 Big COAL generators out of service on a record hot day and your fanatics blame solar and wind, because they are there (somewhere) so they must be to blame. IF the old SEC was still in charge you wouldn't have this outcome. Profiteers seeking to squeeze every cent out of neglected machinery are the cause here. The system should NEVER have been privatized then it would be more reliable or heads would roll.. They HAD the needed expertise in house. No on else to blame Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 What about the snowy hydro for Vic, nomad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Yes, the coal fired infrastructure has been run down by profiteers. And no new power stations built. The reason is political, not technological. Failures and blackouts will get worse unless government steps in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Internally the LNP haven't been able to come to any agreement they stick with. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomadpete Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 I haven't done the research on the proposed Snowy Hydro pump storage but it sounds like somebody's brainfart. I believe there are more practical locations for pump storage but we haven't had any governments that are brave enough to start up forward thinking infrastructure projects - especially ones that take longer than an election cycle to complete. For fear that somebody else gets the credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Initially Turnbull took the credit for that, but Bananaboy wanted to scrap it. HE just LOVES Turnbull.. you know.. . They envisage Coal could be stored this way. I would imaging it's ideal for wind and solar where the cost is low for the initial "excess" electricity.. You can't just turn COAL on and off and it's only efficient near full output. like diesel etc . ALL storage involves a cost penalty. (like taking it a long distance through transformers and wires) Battery response is almost instant. NOTHING beats it in that respect. No one, but no one is going to have a coal fired power station just sitting there, that can be powered up to fill a need in less than days and the cost of having it there unused just in case is ridiculous.. Why schedule a full overhaul in the hottest part of the year?. ALL the failures have been distribution (network) or coal fired power stations failing on hot days You won't get a cloudy day with no windover the WHOLE of Australia. Newer solar works on cloudy days..Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeed Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 There is also the argument that planned maintenance and decisions to declare a fault critical on the highest demand days of the years ensured that spot prices jumped through the roof allowing a surge in profitability from other supplies. Which are also owned by the same power groups. If not planned maintenance would be done in the lowest demand periods ie spring and Autumn. Cynical but possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 Various right wing politicians plus hansenites, independents that got in on 19 primary votes etc keep rabbiting on about new coal fired power as if it was the evangelical saviour. The coal industry even has TV ads about what they call clean coal technology which doesn't exist. It is just less polluting that what our existing 50 year old coal technology delivers. Not only is that 100% wrong but NO ONE on the planet is prepared to finance it. Why do you think that is? Those who have the finance, assess the risk before taking into account any consideration of the pollution that may be caused. They are not going to put their money into some long term investment that is guaranteed to fail are they? No they are much smarter than that. Wind and solar provide positive gains in the very short term. They are gaining momentum exponentially because the cost per mwh is lower than any fossil fuelled generation and the gap is widening by the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 A windfarm doesn't destroy the paddock it's in. You'd only have to manage the weeds and IF you put the panels high enough it could be watered if need be and grazed. Later, when the panels are time expired, if you wanted to use the land for something else the cleanup cost would be minimal compared with ANYTHING else.. In the meantime no CO2 or methane. EVERY industrial estate could have panels on the extensive roof areas. . In equatorial regions there could be more shaded areas provided over the roads where if covered in panels would lower the ambient temps considerably. . We haven't started really trying yet. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 "EVERY industrial estate could have panels on the extensive roof areas. " EVERY industrial estate SHOULD have panels on the extensive roof areas. . I agree. All Council's should put a little of our rates to better use, Solar awning's for shade AND street lights from the solar. How about free solar panels for Private housing paid by a Little rate increase across the board. I've no idea how many houses in Parramatta. If half a million, $2 on the rates gives a $ Million worth of panels. Is it feasible Who will take the trouble to find those answers. spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 The thing is that there is no shortage of energy on planet earth. We have reached the stage where capturing energy is cheaper than releasing energy in coal that took millions of years to collect. The problem is storing that energy in a way that is economical and can be used exactly when needed. At the moment the electrons that are powering my computer so that I can type this rubbish are being produced and used straight away. This is not the way we produce and consume other products, it is a "just in time" production system that is literally just in time. The problem then is storage. This problem is being solved and whilst we know the limitations of today's chemical batteries we tend to ignore how quickly technological problems in the past have been solved. As a follower of news on these subjects, I am optimistic about recent developments in batteries, for example, the joint research collaboration between Honda, NASAs jet propulsion laboratories and Caltech on Flouride Ion batteries as well as many other types of battery. Apart from that, there are other good things happening. Here is a video about pumped compressed air storage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VadUK8-5OSA:4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Yeah I heard about that one. (In England) Not cheap. There's lots of ways to store energy. Big flywheels, electrolysis. drive heavy electric loco's up hill,to generate when they come downhill. Grow cellulose Flax etc. If you burn anything genuinely renewable it's sustainable. Not good when you cut down rainforest to do it though. Algea can produce hydrocarbons... Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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