Why is inexpensive electricity so expensive?

[Grumpy Old Nasho]

We have solar and wind generation farms, yet my latest quarterly bill is as high, or higher, than many bills I got before wind and solar.

 

Does this prove that "cheap" electricity from wind and solar is a hoax?  

 

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 05:06 AM by Grumpy Old Nasho

[old man emu]

Each Watt of electricity produced by solar or wind might be cheaper than Watts produced by fossil fuel means BUT it is the upgrading of infrastructure that is being paid for by increase prices per Watt. 

 

25 minutes ago, Grumpy Old Nasho said:

Does this prove that "cheap" electricity from wind and solar is a hoax?

It isn't really a hoax. It is just that we have never considered the costs involved in maintaining or expanding thee infrastructure. The you have to consdier the costs of employing people and equiping them to do the work. You could say that the 'hoax' comes from only being told part of the truth.

[Grumpy Old Nasho]

We are being ripped off, that's what's happening. We foolishly believe that "clean" energy is cheaper, but it's more expensive than what fossil fuel power was.

[facthunter]

You can check the facts on that IF you want to on relative costs. Old Coal is unreliable. That's WELL understood. The Grid infrastructure needs Work no matter what we do. You may be in an area where you nave no choice in who your Provider is. IF you are in a very remote area others will be subsidising you. Every Person with a solar and battery is helping you.. Old Coal was Amortised The costs of setting it up written off long ago because it's now beyond it's useful Life . When it fails it's usually under high Load on a hot day. Backup is costly. because it's inactive till it's needed and has to respond immediately. Battery and Pumped hydro and gas in that order. Nev

[old man emu]

28 minutes ago, Grumpy Old Nasho said:

We are being ripped off, that's what's happening.

Before you go off half-cocked, why not consider what people say in response to your initial post. Look at all the factors that are involved in getting an electron to your powerboard. Maybe it's not that we are being ripped off, but that we are being misled about all the costs involed in getting that electron to you.

[facthunter]

GON wouldn't be able to whinge if he did that, and he'd have to have his name changed to  HON or CON. If he keeps GON it could be GAY.  but I doubt that's on the cards, but I'm not expert there, either..  They don't have to get the electron all the way. You just Push them into a conductor and  others Pop out the Other end when you need them (If you are connected) What a great thing ELECTRICIY IS.  The most life changing thing we ever Utilised.

[octave]

People sometimes get the idea that if we stopped building solar and wind, then everything would be much cheaper without considering that something has to be built. Old coal was mostly built by the government (the taxpayer). Building a host of new coal power stations or refurbishing old ones would come at a cost that would be borne by the taxpayers or the electricity customers. The question is which is cheaper to build and operate? 

[Grumpy Old Nasho]

When is solar and wind power going to be cheaper than fossil fuel power?

 

Why aren't politicians jailed for misleading consumers?

[octave]

26 minutes ago, Grumpy Old Nasho said:

When is solar and wind power going to be cheaper than fossil fuel power?

GON, you are comparing the cost of building solar and wind with building nothing. Let's say we stopped solar and wind, we would need to build new coal power stations.  Whatever source we choose has to be paid for. 

 

In Australia, renewables (wind and solar) are currently the cheapest sources of new-build power generation, even when accounting for integration costs. According to the latest CSIRO GenCost Report, utility-scale solar and onshore wind maintain a significant cost advantage over fossil fuel and nuclear alternatives. 

 

The important figure to look at is the Firmed Renewables.  The point is, whatever the cost is now does not tell you how much you would need to pay if they replaced the coal power stations that are nearing the end of their life. 

 

 

 

 

Technology Source	Estimated Cost (AUD/MWh)
Solar PV (Utility-scale)	$44 – $65
Onshore Wind	$45 – $57
Firmed Renewables (with storage/transmission)	~$81 – $91
Gas (Combined Cycle)	$65 – $111
Black Coal (New Build)	$87 – $118
Nuclear (Small Modular Reactors)	$230 – $382+

Edited yesterday at 08:54 AM by octave

[Jerry_Atrick]

@Grumpy Old Nasho - if I remember corectly, you are in QLD (but maybe mixing it up with Willidoo). 

 

Anyway, the numbers don't like.

 

Coal is still the majority source of electricity generation - at around 60%. The solar is about 28%, then comes gas and other renewwables:

https://electricity-generation-map.treasury.qld.gov.au/

 

Now, if you live in SE QLD, then max your electricity usage at midday to 2 or 3pm from memory. And that is THANKS TO SOLAR 

 

If you live outside SE QLD, it is likely coal and gas that is holding your prices up. Ironically, most of the solar farms in QLD are SW QLD. 

 

Just stick with coal and your prices will continue to rise as it is more expensive to produce electricity, and getting more expensive to extract.

 

You're welcome

Edited yesterday at 09:09 AM by Jerry_Atrick

[pmccarthy]

Coal has been a cheap, reliable source of electricity since the 1920s. What planet do you guys live on?

[octave]

2 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

Coal has been a cheap, reliable source of electricity since the 1920s. What planet do you guys live on?

 

It is a matter of data isnt it?   I assume that you don't accept the figures from CSIRO or AEMO?

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I accept my own data. I have been paying for electricity for over 50 years. It was nearly all coal and it was cheap and reliable. Now it is woke electricity and it is expensive and we get blackouts. What more data do you need?

[octave]

PM, do you believe new coal or nuclear (and I am not anti-nuclear) can be built without increasing electricity bills? The fact that you use the tired old "woke" to describe a valid method of generating electricity.  My woke panels mean that for me , electricity bills are not really an issue.

 

7 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

I accept my own data

So do antivaxxers.

[nomadpete]

I accept my own data, too. About electricity prices. (Not vaxines)

 

I have recollections of capital city outages (back in the 1980's Qld). And my bills back then.

 

 Now I have lower electricity bills than ever, in dollar values not corrected for CPI. I now get very rare (brief) outages. Less than ever.

 

My conclusion is that the modern evolving mix of solar and conventional (old school) generation has cut my monthly expenses. And increased continuity of supply.

[Grumpy Old Nasho]

6 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

I accept my own data. I have been paying for electricity for over 50 years. It was nearly all coal and it was cheap and reliable. Now it is woke electricity and it is expensive and we get blackouts. What more data do you need?

 

I've filled 23 1/2 pages of a medium size writing pad with dates and times of blackouts since 2015 - twenty lines per page, and each line represents a blackout. Moreover, I can't see an end to these blackouts. And there's no end to charging more for power.

[octave]

13 minutes ago, Grumpy Old Nasho said:

 

I've filled 23 1/2 pages of a medium size writing pad with dates and times of blackouts since 2015 - twenty lines per page, and each line represents a blackout. Moreover, I can't see an end to these blackouts. And there's no end to charging more for power.

Just out of interest, what are you paying per kWh

Edited yesterday at 10:27 AM by octave

[Grumpy Old Nasho]

11 minutes ago, octave said:

Just out of interest, what are you paying per kWh

 

$0.3699

 

There's other charges as well, all the funny money they rip out of you.

[nomadpete]

Last time I looked, Base rate here is 36c/kwh. Plus about $90 p.a. connection fee. So we pay about $1200 per year for electrons.

 

I recently bought a bunch of used 190w panels for $5 each. The solar installers just want to get rid of them when they do upgrades.  If my grid power was so unreliable , i'd whack a couple of kw of them on the shed roof and use a cheap inverter to keep the fridge going during the day.

Edited yesterday at 10:39 AM by nomadpete

[red750]

Tell me one thing that hasn't got more expensive over time.

[Jerry_Atrick]

5 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

Coal has been a cheap, reliable source of electricity since the 1920s. What planet do you guys live on?

It was cheap and reliable, but so were model T Fords in their time. Times and technology has moved on, and, sadly for some, the alternatives are cheaper, more reliable, require much less maintenance, and produce less emissions to boot.  Model T fords in today's money were about USD $15000 (AUD$21,000). For $19,000 you can get small hatch backs.. now,  who is going to buy a car to the Model T spec for $21,000 when you can have the alternatives cheaper? Not too many takers, I would think. 

 

Yes, there has to be an investment to bring it on to critical mass, just like there was an investment in coal stations. Remember, all of Australia's power generation was originally government owned because of the investments required - before the governments sold the family silver.  I guess candles and horses weren't enough.

 

It's not woke, it's economics - pure and simple.

 

I recall plenty of blackouts as a kid... when it was virtually all coal. And a hell of a lot less demand than today - no air conditoners and the like fo us commoners. When I worked in the industry, the maintenance of coal plants was horrendous compared to even nuclear (nuclear was more expensive due to the standards, not the actual work that had to be done). 

 

We live in thereal world, with real data, not some nostalgiv throwback.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Then cost of domestic electricity is the monthly bill, not the unit rate. To suggest otherwise is misleading. As a consumer I don’t care if a big part of my monthly bill is now going to build power lines across paddocks, or whatever. Just the total. And yes, I have rooftop solar.
The blackouts today are not as long as they were a few years ago. But even a short blackout is annoying when you have to reset several clocks in modern devices like the oven. And it is very annoying when your CPAP stops in the middle of the night and you wake up gasping for air.

[nomadpete]

1 hour ago, pmccarthy said:

And it is very annoying when your CPAP stops in the middle of the night and you wake up gasping for air.

It might be time to investigate the purchase of a UPS for the CPAP?

 

 

[nomadpete]

Just doing a 'back of the napkin' calc....

 

Average Australian wage is circa $100k per annum.

Say 30% income tax, leaves $70k real income.

My power bill is about $1300 per annum.

 

Isn't that 1.8% of wages going on electricity?

 

Even if the government (who incidentally don't own the power system anymore) make electricity free it hardly impacts the overall cost of living.

[old man emu]

Talking about building new coal generators. How many billions of dollars would it cost to build the building on a previously undeveloped area of land? Leave out the cost of installing and commsiioning the generating components of a power station.