What has Trump done now?

[red750]

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/nobel-peace-prize-hopeful-donald-trump-sends-cia-into-venezuela-as-he-starts-looking-at-land/vi-AA1OzJwO?ocid=winp2fptaskbarhover&cvid=68f0cdf4fc7d4dcaa4efe469da676c81&ei=121

[rgmwa]

Aren’t covert operations in other counties supposed to be kept secret? 

[nomadpete]

8 hours ago, rgmwa said:

Aren’t covert operations in other counties supposed to be kept secret? 

I think the only thing covert about trump administration is cashflow

 

Am I  biased?

[ClintonB]

Big mouth clown can’t keep anything to himself. Not even the equivalent of a piece of poo on the sole of a true statesman’s shoe.

 

[onetrack]

The best description of Trump I've seen recently, is "bullshit-artist-in-Chief", from the Russian, Vladimir Frolov, a former Russian diplomat. Trump has no ability to forge proper plans, and to see them carried out - he makes arbitrary decisions on the fly, and then fails to follow up, as he finds something else to take up his attention - either flattery, or some vicious political revenge move.

 

He claims he's settled the war in Gaza. But he's done nothing to disarm Hamas. He claims if they don't disarm, then the Americans will get in there, and "blow the crap out of them".

It's all BS - he has no strategic plans to ensure that talks with Hamas produce meaningful results. He has no communications lines established with Hamas, he speaks to them through his Presidential media outbursts. Hamas regard him as just a mouthy fool, and rightfully so.

 

Hamas fighters have come out from hiding, now the bombing has stopped, are carrying good weaponry and driving new pickups - and are set on establishing their power base in Gaza and the Middle East once again.

 

https://www.watoday.com.au/world/north-america/after-the-extraordinary-moment-of-trump-s-mid-east-peace-plan-here-come-the-morning-after-blues-20251016-p5n339.html

[Jerry_Atrick]

Had been laid up in London with a jimmied leg. With a phone and tablet, I'm not going to respond to much, but from the conversation above, I am going to add by $0.02 worth, +, in terms of volume, another dollar.

On 14/10/2025 at 11:38 PM, Marty_d said:

Actually it kind of is a game of cops and robbers (well, terrorists).

Mossad is meant to be one of the most effective intelligence agencies on earth. If this is true then they should have been able to identify most of the Hamas leadership.

Special forces should have taken them out with minimal collateral damage.

The entire Gaza strip didn't need to be leveled.

If you call guerilla warfare cops and robbers.. OK.  I am not sure what Mossad being one of the best  intelligence agencies on earth has got to do with the execution of the war. And they have had their problems in the recent past. Intelligence would be gathered by many points, yes. But, remember, your special forces are generally low in number compared to your military, and why you you offer your military (special forces or not) up to a much riskier operation than it needs to be? Just because they are willing to die for your country, doesn't mean they should be thrown the the lions. 

 

But, yeah, its an alternative. I am not sure I would be sending Aussie special forces in covert operations in a similar situation, though.

 

On 15/10/2025 at 12:03 AM, nomadpete said:

I consider all religious organisations as dangerous to the fabric of civilisation.

 

No thinking person would believe that Hamas has made a realistic 'peace deal'. Nor do they think that Hamas believes in a two state solution. They simply wish to wipe out all the other mob - military and civillians alike.

 

BUT....

 

All that applies to the Israrlies equally.

 

Peace? Bullshit!

 

Forty years ago, a distant acquaintance who worked in the middle east once told me... "The only way to get peace in ME? .... Turn it all into glass"

 

Is that what you suggest, bit by bit, Jerry? Killing all Palestinians won't solve the christian/jew/moslem/power problem. Even when all Palestinians are gone, there is now so much hate that the warring will simply move along to another nearby place.

I agree that the peace deal isn't really worth the paper it is written on (if it is on paper). Hamas do want to wipe out the other mob, but despite what has happend in this war, I am not sure it applies equally to the Israelis, at least where the facts are concerned. Yes, no doubt there are Israelis (and probably more than at any other time except before 1947 UN resolution) that do, but lets look at the facts, given that in wars, when you take territory, you usually keep it unless someone forcibly takes it off you:

• The UN passed a resolution dividing up the land.. you know in accordance with international law. Both sides wanted the lot, but one mob was willing to compromise and declared independence. The very next day, the other mob and 5 Arab nations piled in with a war against the ewly born Israel. OK, it was only a day old at that point. The Arabs lost and Israel ended up with more land. That sort of happens with war.
• In 1967, Israel takes the Sinai at the end of the 6 day war.  This is now 20 years after the declaration of Israel. How many years after Christians were driven out by Muslims (mid 90's) did the fighting continue? Wasn't long. 
• Anyway in 1973, Israel returns the Sinai in exchange for peace. How long did that peace last? Well, it didn't, but a full scale war was launched again in 1978. Some 30 years after the declaration of independence. Israel almost lost this one because (my recollection), like 1967, they were tipped off by Jordan and were going to do a pre-emptive strike, but the US told them to hold off, and if the invasion came, the US would help. Well, the invasion came and the US did not initially help. Israel were "on the ropes" and the PM at the time decided to threaten to use the worst kept secret, being nuclear weapons. At that point, the US decided to help by sendinf supplies.. note, up until that time, Israel had no help (yes, it purchased weapons from European states, but that was about it). 
• Anwar Sadat is starting to make peace with Israel and is killed by Egyptian officers...  Yes, there was an Itzak Rabin was killed by ISraeli far right for going with the Olso accords.. I think that was in the early 90s.
• Year 2000, Palestinians are offered Gaza and 96% of the West Bank.. Who rejected them to keep the fight? Yasar Arafat. 
• The IDF still try and warn/give time for civilians to get out of the way.. Its practical help in this war is questionable, but what other miltiary does that?

 

Yes, there are Israelies that want all of it... but not on a systematic basis. And yes, the hatred runs deep such that peace in the ME is a virtual impossibility.

 

BTW, I have never said I wanted killing of any, let alone all Palestinians. My question was simply what would you (collectively) do that was different (that was practical, too). You country was attacked and they people attacked will continue. Sadly, this sort of thing has been happening with humanity from the dawn of time. Personally, if I could wave a wand and fix things, one of the first things I would do is rewire peoples' brains to not pay attention to religion.

 

On 15/10/2025 at 6:43 AM, rgmwa said:

Israel's relentless bombing and destruction in Gaza and displacement and killing of civilians will have created plenty of incentive for new recruits to join Hamas and other anti-Israeli factions. Israel obviously had to act after the October 7 attack by Hamas, and they were justified in trying to destroy the organisation, but in many ways it will have only made the long term problem worse. 

I don't think it has helped, but anti-semitism is one of the oldest hates; Remember, Hamas wasn't set up by Palestine; it was set up by Iran.. to kill Jews.. Palestinian security has very little to do with it. 

 

On 15/10/2025 at 10:10 AM, octave said:

When you say Gazans, do you mean Hamas or other terrorists or literally all Gazans?

 

I doubt that the little girl in this video was guilty of anything. Of course, this round of barbarity started with an act of barbarity 2 years ago, and so on back to did dispossession of the Palestinians at the creation of the nation of Israel. The problem will never be solved until the root cause is addressed in a way that gives dignity a safety to both sides.

 

The brutal death of a child is heartbreaking, whatever that childs that child's nationality or religion.

 

 

 

In answer to your first question, Hamas, really.

 

That is a very sad video - just watched it. But tragically, this is a feature of any war. When you say this act of barbarity, exactly what you referring to? Purely, the killing of the family? Yes, thatis barbaric. But who, and how? There is nothing in the clip that that I can see that indicates the car was intentionally targetted, as opposed to being caught in the cross fire. I am not sure there were Israeli soldiers baying for blood, peering inside the car, seeing a little girl and shooting her. We know there was a tank next to them and there were shots being fired and the sound of projectiles being fired. It may have been intentional to kill who was in the car (it sounds like it was a war zone, so there could be many reasons - for example, suspicion of Hamas movements, etc). It could have been Hamas or Irraelis fire or both. We don't know. 

 

Don't get me wrong - it is horrendous and we should do anything we can to stop it, but simply forcing Israel to stop hunting Hamas will guarantee it will continue for ever and a day. Israel levelling Gaza, and Gaza still being run by Hamas will probably ensure it, too.. 

 

On the disposesson of Palestinians, a little bit of context has to be brought in. Yes, Palestinians were disposessed. Also, during the Nakbah, there is at least testimony (not in a court, of course) by Palestinians who said their grandparents were asked by the Palestinian militia to leave the land and it will be returned when the Jews were defeated. The Jews apparently offered Palestinians to stay on a lot of the land as long as they didn't fight.. Palestinians, probably justifiably, decided to fight. Except, the land was about 6% owned by Jews, 7% owned and leased by Palestinians, leaving 87% unowned or leased. Which is different to most wars, but:

• Are we prepared to give full ownership of the land we own in Australia back to the Aboriginals?
• Is anyone calling for Prussia to be returned to Germany?
• Until the Ukraine war, was anyone calling for Crimea to be returned to Ukraine?
• Is anyone fighting for Christian Kosovans to be returned to Kosov?
• Is anyone fighting for Califorinia to be returned to Mexico, or the whole of the Northeren Americas to be returned to the native Americans?
• Land for the Kurds displaced? the different African states, etc. 

No, after a while, people accept a new order (yes, in the case if Australia, there is land rights, but it ain't quite the same), and they adjust to it, Why, after nearly 80 years, is this different? At least the Jews owned almost equal to what was owned and leased.  And at least they were willing to share it.  If it were accepted even 30 years ago, and if Arafat had accepted the Camp David accords, imagine how much better Palestinian life would be? Or are we asserting that Israel would still be killing Palestinians? Except, since 1947, what War did Israel start? 

 

Because, for Hamas and the Muslim Bortherhood, it has nothing to do with Palestinians - they are the pawn in all of this. They just want the Jews out..and dead. 

 

On 16/10/2025 at 12:44 AM, kgwilson said:

Humanity has never learned the lessons of the past. Bomber Harris advocated systematic bombing of German cities in an attempt to break the German morale. It didn't work as it hadn't when the Germans were bombing the UK in the Blitz. In Germany it was also an attempt to reduce labour and industrial output. Didn't work either as the Nazis just got slave labour to resolve this.

 

Netanyahu is being propped up by his ultra right wing. If he is ousted he is gone & will be prosecuted & jailed. More likely he will be given asylum by Trump like Assad was by Putin.

 

The majority of Israelis wanted negotiations more than a year ago & the protests since have been growing all the time. Before the war Israel had systematically been taking over the West Bank, detaining and killing Palestinians so it is little wonder that Hamas came in to existence, then power & started to fight back, the wall went up & rockets started flying & eventually the catastrophic events of 2 years ago. This gave Netanyahu & his cronies their opportunity, their aim being to get rid of ALL Palestinians once & for all.

 

Will Trumps declaration of Peace last. Not on your Nellie.

I agree with most of this post, but not all (I am an argumentative SOB). Trump may give Netanyahu asylum, but that would be dangerous as he won;t be there forever, and it can be revoked by the democrats. He will apply pressure, and has already suggested to the Israelis that Netanyahu be pardoned for any corruption charges. 

 

You are right the Israelis have protested for negotiations for more than a year. However, Hamas and the Muslim brotherhood refuse to negotiate, so it is quite difficult. So, Netanyahu made it simple for them - return the hostages and Hamas to disarm. Then as the war progressed and the casualties mounted, Qatar and I think Saudi but may be wrong, got involved and tried to broker something with the yanks. What brought Hamas seriously to the table in the end? Hate to say this, Chump (maybe I will call him Trump this time). It wasn't any particularly great feat of negotiating.. it wasd threats - basically, come to the table and accept a ceasefire, or, the inference was America would get involved, and it won't end well. While the protests were calling for negotiations, they weren't against the war. That is a common misconception. 

 

Israel took the West Bank after the 67 war. One of the issues is that the West Bank is strategically advantageous militarily. They aren't going to give it up soon. Yes, the UN passed resolutions they should, but if someone wages war on you, and you win and with it the spoils of territory, expecially with a military advantage, why would you listen to anyone telling you to give it up. And, why were they? No other country that has had the same - Russia included - were asked to give up land they took, even when they started the war (Crimea). The UN usually bends over backwards to styop further bloodshed. 

 

Hamas came into existence, not because of the West Bank, but because the Palestinian Liberation Army couldn't get the job done. The PLA still exists, but like the PLO is pretty toothless, as Hamas has taken over both politically and militarily the Gaza strip, anyway. And, apparently, have been spotted in the West Bank, too. In fact, if Hamas was started because of the West Bank, surely they would be situated there?

 

Anyway, it is clear why Hamas was started.. As the PLA couldn't get the job done, Iran needed another proxy to target Israel, and the Jews. Read the Hamas Charter.. it is pretty chilling reading.

 

And this comes to my point earlier about why, after almost 80 years, people are still banging on about this and why the fighting is continuing. If this were any other people, it would have fizzled out long ago. But, Hamas, the Muslim Bortherhood, and Iran who funds them hates jews. It's aas simple as that. They do not care one iota for the Palestinian people.. if you believe they do, just look at the streets of Gaza now, and who is doing the killing of Palestinians. It aint the Israelis (yes, there was the one where people running to the IDF were ordered to stop and they didn't so they opened fire). And remember, there are c. 2m Palestinians in Gaza; there are also c. 1.9m Palestinians in Israel, so if Israel were about killing all the Palestinians, they would have a lot do to in their home patch. Oh, and the Palestinians living in Israel have all of the rights of Jews (and others); voting, they have had a deputy PM just in the last government, have held cheif justice of the Supreme court, etc. And Gaza was supplied water and electricity by Israel; Gazans were allowed to work and live their daily lives in Israel, receive medical care in Israel when require, etc until the . All tabled in these forums previously with all the evidence.  Yet people seem to forget all of this. Why?

 

You would be surprised at how many videos pop up where Paletinians in Gaza, at the end of their mental tether, are explosively screaming about how they hate Hamas, not the Israelis. Yes, this is small compared to the 60K killed, but the point is, I don't think we get to see the full story. I don't see the protesters now coming out and calling for Hamas to put in a ceasfire against the Palestinians? Why, if they are so worried about the Palestinian plight? As one US presenter put it, no Jews, no news.  I think that says it all.

 

Edited Saturday at 08:43 PM by Jerry_Atrick

[octave]

I really, really don't want to get drawn into this subject because it is a subject where people tend to passionately believe that one side is all good and one side is all bad, when clearly the truth lies somewhere between.   I will always condemn unjustifiable violence wherever the perpetrator is, even if it i my own country.

 

No, I do not think that the land has been taken since the 1947 partition plan can be given back.   The problem is, though, that the process continues with settlers expanding into the West Bank, etc. Should the Palestinians just accept their territory slowly getting smaller and smaller? Again, I do not condone violence.

 

It was inevitable that after the barbaric acts of October 7, there would be some action by the Israelis.  For me, it comes down to proportionality.

 

I am sure it is correct that the Palestinians hate Israelis and that Israelis hate Palestinians. This problem will never be solved until the mutual hatred can be sorted out.   I was going to post a bunch of videos, but as I said I don't want to get too involved in a debate that is so polarised. 

 

Some of the vids involve settlers driving Palestinian farmers out of their olive orchards at harvest time, also driving away their livestock.

A video of Israeli soldiers dragging kids out of bed to check their IDs at gunpoint.  How could those kids possibly grow up without hatred?

Two Israeli teenage boys beating an aged farmer on his own land. 

 

To quote another poster, "Peace does not lie at the end" My point is, it does not lie at the end of a Palestinian gun or an Israeli gun. 

 

I guess to sum up, I am definitely not pro-Hamas or pro-Israeli. I merely call out barbarity where I see it. Hamas is brutal, and so are the ultra-far-right members of the Israeli government. 

 

 

 

[Marty_d]

Well said Octave. This isn't goodies vs baddies, it's some evil men on each side.

Edited Saturday at 11:48 PM by Marty_d

[Jerry_Atrick]

I have never said there wasn't evil on either side.. In fact, I have said that Israel too has blood on its hands.. In every conflict, there is going to be evil on both sides. But, from what I can see, the evidence is that Hamas as an entity perpetuates evil and Israel as en entity tries to contain it - although admittedly in the current conflict, I expect more of it to surface. I mean in the Afghan war, therre was Aussie evilness, but that doesn't mean the ADF is evil, despite no one being held to account for what in public seems a fairly cut and dry case. 

 

8 hours ago, octave said:

I really, really don't want to get drawn into this subject because it is a subject where people tend to passionately believe that one side is all good and one side is all bad, when clearly the truth lies somewhere between.   I will always condemn unjustifiable violence wherever the perpetrator is, even if it i my own country.

 

No, I do not think that the land has been taken since the 1947 partition plan can be given back.   The problem is, though, that the process continues with settlers expanding into the West Bank, etc. Should the Palestinians just accept their territory slowly getting smaller and smaller? Again, I do not condone violence.

On the first  sentence, ditto... And believe it or not, I am really not biased one way or another. In fact, until these forums, I had no interest the area whatsoever (especially after 2 weeks working in Abh Dhabi). But the facts seem to spout a different story to what people are saying. 

 

On the second, the West Bank was lost from the Palewtinians after the 1967 war. In a war you wage, you may win, or you may lose.. .and that includes territory. In 2000, 96% of it was offered back. Arafat/PLO were showing their readiness to accept the deal until the last moment, when they pulled out wanting all of it. And I think that is the crux... The Israelis are (or were) happy to compromise all the way.. The chant, ,"From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free." doesn't mean just the original partition plan. It means the lot. 

 

And, yes, the Palestinian territory has been getting smaller. But why is that? If you continually wage wars against your neighbour and you lose, chances are each time, your neighbour is likely to increase the buffer between you and them. I don't agree with Israel settling the West Bank; it is hotly disputed terriroty and the UN have, as mentioned before, in defiance with ways they have addressed other conflicts, stated it is Palestinian land. Maybe they were sick of being bombarded and decided it would be better in permanent hands? Again, the Palestininians were offered it back bar 4%, but didn't take it because it wasn't it all.

 

I am also interested in why if Palestinians in the Hamas/PLO/PLA context keep waging wars and keep losing them, should Israel hand back the land to the 1947 delcaration?

 

8 hours ago, octave said:

am sure it is correct that the Palestinians hate Israelis and that Israelis hate Palestinians. This problem will never be solved until the mutual hatred can be sorted out.   I was going to post a bunch of videos, but as I said I don't want to get too involved in a debate that is so polarised. 

I don't see it as polarisation, but a chance to learn. However, at least until the current war, the facts again don't correlate to the assertion. 1.9m Palestinians in Israel will the same rights as anyone else (there goes the apartheid argument). Israel supplies electricity and water to Gaza and provided necessary medical services in Israel for those who could not be treated in Gaza. Does that sound like hate to you? Israel allowed Gazans to work freely in Israel and have lives with family in Israel before the war.. Does that sound like hate to you? In Israel, Arabs and Jews roam the streets together with little issues (outside of the West Bank); does that sound like hate to you? It may be, because It doesn't to me, at least institutionally or as an entity. At worst, they may hate the Palestinians, but are prepared to live with them. Yeah, there may be sectors of Israeli society that hated Palesitnians for a very long time...

 

Now let's ask the question the other way? Any Jews freely going into Gaza (or any other Arabic nation ex Bahrain and Oman), the latter until very recently? Can't answer any of the other questions, because the opportunity to see has simply not been there. No doubt after tis war, the hate has increased. 

 

9 hours ago, octave said:

It was inevitable that after the barbaric acts of October 7, there would be some action by the Israelis.  For me, it comes down to proportionality.

Sorry - out of sequence.. Inevitibale, or designed? We can only draw our own conclusions. Buit the interesting question is proprotionality? Is it of the objective or the outcome. The objective is to nuetralise Hamas - not necessarily elimiate all of Hamas members. Is that proprtional to the events on October 7 (and all events leading up to it)? Or is proportionality of consequences - in this case excessive civilian deaths? Which one overrides the other? And what is the threshold that say the pursuit of the objective is outweighed by the consequence? This is a messy conflict and utlimately will depend on one's viewpoint. For me, personally, it seems a toll too high, but it is in our faces. There have been many recent wars in the region that have taken c. 100,000 civilian lives per year - over 300% more than the current Israel Palestinian conflict, but as jounalists don't go there, no one talks about it. That doesn't mean we shouldn't also be concerned with the Israel/Palestine conflict, but, again, is Israel to stop at its objective purely because Hamas is using its population as a shield? Does that mean Hamas basically is given free reign to continue? This is the question.. which is the original question of what else is Israel supposed to do?

 

9 hours ago, octave said:

Some of the vids involve settlers driving Palestinian farmers out of their olive orchards at harvest time, also driving away their livestock.

A video of Israeli soldiers dragging kids out of bed to check their IDs at gunpoint.  How could those kids possibly grow up without hatred?

Two Israeli teenage boys beating an aged farmer on his own land. 

I agree - these are violations of human rights, and constructively driving Palestinians from the land. Israel should be held accountable for it. In some cases - not all - Israel prosecutes such actions.. Not enouogh in my opinion, and maybe its an olvie brqansh to say, hey we do hold our people accountable. And yes, Palestinian kids will grow up hating Isarelis.. Just like now Israeli kids will grow up hating Palestinians. 

[nomadpete]

When we talk about "What has Trump done now", we focus on his latest rant or outrageous brainfart. However, this prevents us seeing the bigger picture. The link below looks at tRumps recent address to HIS entire military forces.

 

https://theconversation.com/trumps-tragedy-the-us-becomes-an-autocracy-and-the-presidency-a-dictatorship-266675

[nomadpete]

[Jerry_Atrick]

If it weren't so serious it would be funny

[red750]

Epstien brought down Prince Andrew. Let's hope he does the same for Trump.

[nomadpete]

10 minutes ago, red750 said:

Epstien brought down Prince Andrew. Let's hope he does the same for Trump.

 

[red750]

[red750]

[nomadpete]

Here's one that was all too subtle for him....

 

[rgmwa]

He was very unhappy about that photo and complained loudly, even though he made the cover of Time magazine. When you're a star I guess you have to take the good with the bad.

[old man emu]

On 19/10/2025 at 8:58 AM, octave said:

after the barbaric acts of October 7, there would be some action by the Israelis.

There has been - barbarity amounting to genocide.

 

I mentioned earlier that Hamas is not a secular organisation as is the Palestine Liberation Organisation, but a fundamentalist religious organisation similar to the Taliban. It seems likely that the Iraeli government is a religious organisation. It might be possible to discuss a peaceful settlement with a secular organisation, but not with religious ones. Remember Belfast?

[facthunter]

Maybe the IDF let it happen to justify what they then did.. The Muslim Brotherhood (Egypt) warned them something BIG was going to happen. Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

4 hours ago, old man emu said:

There has been - barbarity amounting to genocide.

 

I mentioned earlier that Hamas is not a secular organisation as is the Palestine Liberation Organisation, but a fundamentalist religious organisation similar to the Taliban. It seems likely that the Iraeli government is a religious organisation. It might be possible to discuss a peaceful settlement with a secular organisation, but not with religious ones. Remember Belfast?

Genocide is defined by the UN and a summary of it is here: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/Genocide Convention-FactSheet-ENG.pdf

The key wording being:

"The definition contained in Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part. It does not include political groups or so called “cultural genocide”."

 

Yes - there is an ICC warrant for Netanyahu, but that does not mean guilty. I doubt they intend to wip out the Palestinian population - they have the means to do it already without riskng their troops and their actions would surely be less discriminate? However, by Hamas perpetrating acts knowing that Israel would have to respond, and by Hamas hiding behind their citizens in readiness for the response - well - exactly where does the intent lay?  

 

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

Maybe the IDF let it happen to justify what they then did.. The Muslim Brotherhood (Egypt) warned them something BIG was going to happen. Nev

Oh, get real. All thorugh the war, Israel stated they would stop if Hamas return the hostages and lay down their arms. No one pressured Hamas to do that, well, except for Chump. Certainly the public opinion wasn't that. Now, imagine if Hamas did return the hostages and lay down their weapons? Oh, hang on, Hamas is stil killing Palestinians.. Go figure with that conspiracy theory.