Time to take the gloves off?

[old man emu]

I've created this thread as a place to discuss Domestic Violence. Elsewhere on this site people have spoken openly about DV, something that is much appreciated, but I ask you, that if you become involved in the discussion here, you discuss the topic as a general societal problem. Thanks.

 

What are the causes of DV?

 

The causes are myriad, but before we set out planning a corrective strategy, we should get an understanding of the root causes. The usual scenario for a relationship is that a couple meets and each is attracted to the other. No names, no pack drill here, male/female, male/male, female/female is irrelevant, just that there are two people involved. Some time after meeting, a partnering with a high degree of exclusivity is established. That partnership can either grown in strength and permanency, or it can end amicably or antagonistically.

 

One question that is never asked, and would provide so much understanding is "What caused the relationship to sour? The obvious source of answers to that question comes from those who are victims of it. Once we have collected a sufficient quantity of answers, we can sort the reasons into groups and by analysing those  groups, we can see where efforts should be directed to reduce the level of DV and to create strategies to change societal perceptions.

 

My first thought as to the overriding cause of DV is any one of the various addictions. After identifying the most serious addiction that can lead to the assaults that we are hearing of, then strategies can be developed to eliminate them as much as possible.

 

My opinion is that the first step is taking the gloves off to intoxication, and the intoxicant that needs eliminating is methamphetamine.  Apparently Australia leads the world in use of amphetamine. Whether that is based on gross volumes or per capita volumes, I am not sure. Either way, we should instruct our lawmakers to legislate for what some might call Draconian methods. Here are some hard love methods:

Possession and use - Immediate loss of liberty and detention in a medical detoxification centre.

Assaults whilst under the influence - as for possession and detention after detox whilst on remand.

Possession for sale - detention whilst on remand.

Voluntary Pill testing -  Cancelled. 

 

Re pill testing: While it is usual for those volunteering a sample for testing to dispose of "dirty" stuff, what do they do if the test reveals that the pill doesn't contain any other harmful substances? Is a negative result for nasty stuff a green light to use the rest of the stash?

 

My reason for homing in on drugs, is that it would seem that in many of the recent murders and the serious assaults that the media doesn't report, the persons involved are in that 20 to 35 age group which hasn't the experience of years about the many dangers to themselves and others of drug use.

 

I know that gambling, alcohol abuse and philandering are other causes of DV, but perhaps not with the frequency of drug abuse.

 

 

[facthunter]

Where has prohibition worked?  Nev

[octave]

I think it can be easy to jump to one cause of domestic violence. Whilst there has been a recent uptick in domestic murders it is hardly a new problem. In fact, whilst acknowledging the recent spike I believe the overall rate has decreased.  The domestic homicide victimisation rate decreased from 0.8 to 0.3 per 100,000 people from 1989–90 to 2020–21 in the NHMP  Of course this does not diminish the horror of the recent spike. I am just not convinced that we can point the finger primarily at drug use.   

 

There are some conservative cultures where drugs and alcohol are less prevalent or even prohibited but still there is family violence.

 

My father's father used bash my grandmother apparently until he left. This was in the late 30s and is probably most notable because she would not put up with it as many did.   I think back then it wasn't acknowledged as it is today, people mostly just put up with it.

 

During my airforce days I had a female colleague who I was (and still) quite good friends with.   She was a week away from getting married and approached me with a question.   Her intended had said to her that he believed the man should be the decision maker in the relationship.   I suspect this might have been from the religious "man as head and woman as helpmate" BS.  This friend asked me what I did in my marriage.   I really wanted to say "don't go through with it"  I did suggest that it sounded a little problematic.   Whilst in the airforce band there was a lot of socialising after gigs. This often took place at the venue.  He expected her to drive to all the jobs so she could leave ASAP.  I remember him coming to my house one day and saying that he thought it was obvious she was having an affair (she wasn't to my knowledge)  He then suggested that I might be having an affair with her (untrue)   Later my other work colleagues said that they had had the same experience.  This man's problem was not drugs or alcohol but jealousy and wanting to control her.   Not long after this when she got home later than expected he hit her and to her credit she left him immediatly.

 

I do think there are a proportion of men who want to be in control and who can not take no for an answer.   I know in my marriage (which is fine thanks for asking) I can say something critical of my wife and she will talk about it. I have learned to do this also but if I am honest I am much quicker to take offence.  Luckily I don't deal with this with aggression but I do tend to get quiet and sulky for a few hours.

 

Of course, alcohol and drugs act as a disinhibitors making it more likely for people to act on their rage.

 

 

In my opinion, we need to rethink how we raise our children.    Might isn't necessarily right and winning is not everything.   I think a problem with violence of any kind is a lack of empathy.  

 

Recently I recorded a disgusting act of violence on my doorbell cam. Luckily for me, I was not home at the time so I did not have a dilemma as to whether or not I should intervene.  I did however report this incident to the police and this man's number plate.  I don't know what happened but I certainly hope there were consequences.   I would post the video here but I guess it could become part of a court case.

 

Whilst I think the problem is complex, I do believe that good men must call out and not jump to the defence of bad men.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[old man emu]

57 minutes ago, octave said:

I am just not convinced that we can point the finger primarily at drug use.   

I have no argument there. I just nominated that one because I think it might be more relevant in recent cases. 

 

It is just that having had to deal with DV in the past, and that was before the widespread use of Speed, there was always some sort of addiction that caused problems. Ever heard of a golf widow? Times change and addictions come and go. I wonder if alcoholism is as prevalent amongst the 18 - 35 group now as it might have been 50 years ago. Isn't the addiction of choice nowadays based on stimulant drugs?

[spenaroo]

I dont agree with Prohibition but think that being under the influence of alcohol or "recreational" drugs should be stripped away as any defense in court.

you chose to impair your ability to think - the consequences should be the same.

 

no issues with prescription meds etc... lowering the responsibility with side effects.

Edited May 2 by spenaroo

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, octave said:

don't know what happened but I certainly hope there were consequences.

Can I be so rude as to suggest that if the Police haven't asked you for a statement relating to the creation of the video (ie continuity of evidence) then all your report has got is shrugged shoulders.

[nomadpete]

2 hours ago, old man emu said:

What caused the relationship to sour?

Unfulfilled expectations, aggravated by inflexibility.

[nomadpete]

1 hour ago, octave said:

I do think there are a proportion of men who want to be in control and who can not take no for an answer.

That is unfaily sexist.

In my experience, any gender might have this dangerous attitude lurking within an initially pleasant countenance.

[octave]

7 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Can I be so rude as to suggest that if the Police haven't asked you for a statement relating to the creation of the video (ie continuity of evidence) then all your report has got is shrugged shoulders.

I did get a call about it from a detective.  This does relate to a longer-term problem which I will relate on this forum (along with some pretty cool video footage) once the situation has been fully taken care of.   We have reported instances that have resulted in arrests (which we also have on video)   

[spenaroo]

What is surprising to me is I keep hearing the same story from women I've dated.

they got married and immediately things changed with the partner expecting a "traditional wife"

some one who is subservient to them and to be in control - this leads to the abuse (including trying to get them pregnant without consent).

 

marriages failed within a month or three.

 

you would think its the outlier... but 3 women in 12 months I personally know, have the same story and trauma that they are working through in the aftermath

Edited May 2 by spenaroo

[red750]

A couple of posters have alluded to a difference in expectations and actions.

 

I have been getting posts on Facebook from an American group called Feminine News. One of the discussions has been about sexual expectations in marriage (and other relatioships). The women's point of view is, it's my body, I'll do what I want with it. If I say no, I mean no. The opposing male view is, I married you and vowed off all others, I am entitled to it when I want it. Single men think they are entitled to it without putting a ring on the finger.The new cry from women is that if they were lost in the woods and had to choose between a man and a bear, they would pick the bear.

 

There has to be compromise. Both points of view have some merit, but it requires the understanding by both that there may be good reasons for their decisions, and they need to discuss them logically. Unfortunately women are feeling that ALL men are toxic, and and men are felling that ALL women are b****es.

[octave]

7 minutes ago, red750 said:

Unfortunately women are feeling that ALL men are toxic, and and men are felling that ALL women are b****es.

Not in my world. I think I probably have as many female friends as male friends.  I don't believe my female friends believe me to be toxic but I treat them the same way I treat my male friends.  I don't believe there are many women out there declaring all men toxic but I think that many men are quite sensitive and believe criticism of some men equates to criticism of all men.  

[red750]

You haven't read all the comments on that group. And I have a former female work colleague here in Melbourne with whom I am a Facebook friend, and she has posted a couple of times that ALL men are cheaters and she is glad she stayed single. Also complains about unsolicited dick pics. I called her out on the "ALL MEN" bit in a PM. She never replied. 

[octave]

1 minute ago, red750 said:

You haven't read all the comments on that group. And I have a former female work colleague here in Melbourne with whom I am a Facebook friend, and she has posted a couple of times that ALL men are cheaters and she is glad she stayed single. Also complains about unsolicited dick pics. I called her out on the "ALL MEN" bit in a PM. She never replied. 

 

The internet is a poor representation of the real world.   The internet is driven by clicks and controversy.   I would suggest that people who post are likely to not be a representative sample of the community.  Are your female friends b****? is your daughter a b****?   Do have any female friends?    The internet is great at presenting absolute.  All Aborigines are this or all Asians are that.  This does not represent actual; relationships between real people. 

 

None women I know are accusing me of bad behaviour,

 

[willedoo]

2 hours ago, old man emu said:

t is just that having had to deal with DV in the past, and that was before the widespread use of Speed, there was always some sort of addiction that caused problems. Ever heard of a golf widow? Times change and addictions come and go. I wonder if alcoholism is as prevalent amongst the 18 - 35 group now as it might have been 50 years ago. Isn't the addiction of choice nowadays based on stimulant drugs?

If you wind the clock back far enough a stimulant drug like methamphetamine was rare in the general recreational drug use community. In the 70's for instance, there were the pot smokers and heroin addicts in the regular use category. Back then, speed was really only prevalent among interstate truck drivers and their use was mainly limited to just taking enough to stay awake and do their job. The pot smokers were usually too stoned to be violent and the heroin addicts were only a small percentage and mainly concerned with just getting the next fix. Drinkers made up the majority in DV cases, but the grog would only be a primary cause in a smaller percentage of cases. I think the grog was more of an enabling factor in people with underlying frustration and aggression. These days the use of speed derivatives is so widespread that the numbers are showing up in DV cases just as alcohol once did and still does.

 

I don't know enough about methamphetamines to comment on whether it can turn a normally peaceful person violent, but there are anecdotal stories of some ice addicts being violent.

[willedoo]

There's been a lot on the radio lately about criminalising coercive control. It would be a tricky one to legally set a line there, but in general the intention is good. I have seen it years ago in a couple of my friends who have long since divorced. Coercive control was the biggest factor in that marriage failing.

[spacesailor]

FH.

I have never flown my Hummel-Bird as it " prohibited " .

spacesailor

[Marty_d]

Cart before the horse OME. 

Substance abuse is a symptom,  not a cause. 

[red750]

https://au.yahoo.com/news/sister-of-murdered-woman-shuts-down-dirtbag-argument-as-australias-violence-problem-rages-on-074542779.html

[old man emu]

14 hours ago, Marty_d said:

Cart before the horse OME. Substance abuse is a symptom,  not a cause. 

The question that has not been answered is "what is the cause?". Again today the "experts" are sitting around talking about ways to change what is happening. I bet there are no questions asked to identify the seed that grows into DV. Contributors to this thread have identified many varieties of seeds, but I wonder if these "experts" have ever considered them.

 

As for the government's "help to move out" grants (apparently introduced by the Morrison government and carried on by the Albanese government) is difficult to obtain. Women's advocates are also saying that it has sexist undertones because it implies that it is the women and children who must leave the security of a home. Can you imagine how life is for a mother with young school-age children living in a car with no fixed place of abode, trying to enable her children to attend school? Obviously if the children continue to attend their original school, there is the danger of their being snatched by the father.

 

As I said, we really need to become draconian in dealing with women beaters. Maybe make it a condition of being granted bail that the accused undergo psychological assessment. However, what I suggest is chasing the horse after it has bolted.

[spenaroo]

the school one is a real danger.

 

was dating now friends with a woman who escaped a controlling relationship.

legally she has to have the fathers details with the school....
 

... well her daughter was sick and when the first call didnt go through to her, the school called the father who came and picked her up.

(the same father who the courts have ruled against knowing the current address etc...)

you can imagine the stress and problems that caused her- luckily she got her daughter back from him. but it was a very difficult and emotional time.


I like the idea of an ankle monitor mandatory with any AVO. shows the irrefutable proof to the court without the victim having to be burdened with it.

and hopefully make people think twice before ignoring them, even if its just a physical reminder of it.

Edited May 2 by spenaroo

[red750]

2 hours ago, old man emu said:

we really need to become draconian in dealing with women beaters

I said that and was roundly admonished.

[old man emu]

2 minutes ago, red750 said:

I said that and was roundly admonished.

That's why I referred to "taking the gloves off" in the title of this thread. If one steps back at considers the "every child wins a prize" attitude of the past 30 to 40 years, one comes to the conclusion that the results have not been good for society. I'm not advocating sparing the rod, but there needs to be some change in the way we show children an acceptable way of behaving and at the same time show very unpleasant consequences for incorrect behaviour, and be willing to apply those consequences. Just look how the introduction of RBT and the associated penalties have changed attitudes to driving while intoxicated by alcohol. There's still more to be done to change attitudes to driving while intoxicated by drugs.

 

I think that there needs to be a rebalancing of the Rights -v- Responsibilities see-saw. For too long there has been a weighting of the Rights side which had led to the ignoring of the Responsibilities that earn those Rights. Have you seen recently anyone protesting that their responsibilities have been infringed? 

[Marty_d]

1 hour ago, red750 said:

I said that and was roundly admonished.

You recommended the death penalty.  "Draconian" doesn't have to mean killing people.

 

OME, the CAUSE can be varied and a starting list might be (note I am not a psychologist, behavioural therapist or any other "ist")

 

• Perpetrator is just a prick and always has been 
• Feelings of inadequacy - failing to live the life they think they deserve, so they lash out
• Brought up in a house where abuse was common - including beatings - so violence is normalised
• Brought up in a cultural or religious setting where violence against women is "allowable" if they go against the will of the male
• Low IQ 
• Lack of appropriate parental / "father figure" guidance in formative years
• Mental health issues - ADHD etc
• Sociopath

Note that several of those are also root causes of alcohol / drug abuse which I would consider another factor but not a cause.  You can have happy drunks/druggies that wouldn't hurt a fly.  The old saying is that alcohol just enhances whatever mood you start off in.  If you're happy to start, you'll probably be happy drunk - if you're aggro to start, you'll be drunk AND aggro which isn't good.

 

Also point out that the vast majority of people who have one or more of those causes never actually commit violence against anyone.

 

Life is not simple and there are no silver bullets.  The best any government can to is to get the experts involved and try to bring a wideranging and balanced set of solutions which MAY help bring down the rate of DV.

[old man emu]

36 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

The best any government can to is to get the experts involved

I'm beginning to think that a lot of these so-called "experts" are only expert into conning other people into supporting the expert in a lifestyle the expert describes for themself. I reckon more attention should be given to the baby rather than the bathwater it sits in. Go to the real experts - the victims and the grassroots organisations that have to deal with the frantic knock on the refuge door at 2:00 in the morning.

 

5 hours ago, spenaroo said:

the school one is a real danger.

My daughter-in-law had to deal with a similar situation from a previous relationship. I wonder how far a parent can push a school's Duty of Care towards a student in such matters. Should the parent protected by an AVO , tell the school of any conditions of the AVO that involve the protection of the child. I wonder if the fact that a person is subject to an AVO is something that is exempt from privacy laws. Afterall, if a person gets convicted for drink driving, or even if arrested for a newsworthy crime, the media will publish name and even photograph.