Electric car thread

[facthunter]

The high charge rate is optional on the expensive models with BYD. That technology costs more. There won't be universal adoption of it. That's the expectation.  We should have the option as quickly as anyone unless the Trumpeter make some outrageous  demand.  MAGA is a PUNISHMENT for being more efficient than the Disunited  Dog eat dog, State of America . America FIRST actually means and the rest of you can get $tuFFed as long as we prosper.  KING Kee's  running the asylum.. Putin is more important than NATO.   How does HE get away with THAT?

  Anyhow  Battery Electric is Powering nearly everything. Why would it not apply to cars? It works for Iron Ore trucks . MY 10 KW of storage will be active at the beginning of  July. Everyone will get some benefit from that.  Nev

[red750]

https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/news/australian-government-loans-100m-to-install-ev-chargers-and-solar-panels-at-bunnings-and-officeworks-stores/ar-AA1HxUUm?ocid=winp2fptaskbarhover&cvid=8b3130bc7a044397e423a330febea354&ei=29

[red750]

Taking it a bit far? Careful they don't blow off. Don't drive too fast.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/man-powers-his-electric-car-using-solar-panels-mounted-on-the-roof/ar-AA1HeQko?ocid=winp2fptaskbarhover&cvid=8b3130bc7a044397e423a330febea354&ei=29

[facthunter]

Not very practical.  about 4 HP/Hr. The Solar racers in Australia are far more sophisticated than that. The extra DRAG there would probably use it all up. Nev

[old man emu]

At first sight, providing money to Wesfarmers for solar panels for its sites smells of something shoinky. However, the article says that the money is actually a loan to be repaid at commercial loan rates.

 

Ther problem that I see in trying to get solar panels on commercial buildings is that there has to be some way that the tennant of the building gets a benefit from the electricity generated. However, that thought can readily be changed if you say that the roof of a commercial building is space that is the building's owner, the same as floor space under the roof is the owner's to do with as wanted. So it's no business of any tennant what money the owner makes from the roof area.

[facthunter]

EVERYONE in the system benefits from people putting more Solar, Wind and Battery storage into play no matter who does it. Its a great initiative, only opposed by those with Coal, Gas and Oil Interests. Nev

[nomadpete]

One impediment to all "alternative" energy adoption in Australia  is the power of lobby groups and old established billionaire wealth.

I think this podcast sheds a little light on the power structure behind our politics.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2025/may/19/gina-what-does-she-want-episode-7

[octave]

Apparently, commercial building owners can lease their roof space to a company that will put up solar panels. 

 

https://upstreamenergy.com.au/solar-solutions/roof-licensing

[facthunter]

Gorgeous GINA is Notorious for her opposition to anything reducing her income. She's "worth" 37billion but wants much more. Donates to the Liberal Party and the IPA (Fully tax deductible). Gives  $62,000 the Banarnaby Joyce for Pocket money OR WHATEVER.  Nev

[nomadpete]

4 hours ago, facthunter said:

Gives  $62,000 the Banarnaby Joyce for Pocket money OR WHATEVER.  Nev

Clearly she is a thoughtful, generous soul..

[octave]

https://www.drivencarguide.co.nz/news/how-long-ev-batteries-really-last-according-to-new-data/

[spacesailor]

I've been told " there's a " high mileage club " on FB . ( electric cars ) .

Talked about half million  kilometres,  & more than one , one million Kilometre evee. 

spacesailor

 

 

[kgwilson]

2 hours ago, octave said:

https://www.drivencarguide.co.nz/news/how-long-ev-batteries-really-last-according-to-new-data/

This is just one of the many reports along with detailed studies providing evidence of how good modern EV batteries are. This is largely due to the quality of the manufacture and the BMS (battery management system). The BMS takes care of the battery as a large number of people don't have any idea how to look after them, and for those who do, saves them a job. The BMS continually monitors and adjusts battery voltage and charge rate etc far better than could be done manually. Every time I charge my battery to 60%  and up to 100% the BMS runs its diagnostics and equalises the voltage of all the cells at the end of the charging session. Of course it doesn't do this when charging at a fast DC charger as there is no time available for it to occur. It performs other roles too like monitoring temperature and organising cooling or heating as required.

 

From information gleaned from EV forums there are some owners who are obsessed with battery management but equally there are many who don't give a rats. It doesn't really matter which side of the spectrum you are on as the batteries in most cases will outlast the car they are in no matter what you do.

[onetrack]

This is what is wrong with EV's, and what is still putting people off. They're essentially toasters, you scrap them when the battery is RS. Watch the video right through, the bloke is not anti-EV.

 

Even just doing any repair work on them generally starts to become horrendously costly within a very short time. Mind you, a lot of IC-engined cars of recent design are no better.

 

Thus, my argument remains that the only way to make EV's fully superior to IC-engined vehicles, is to build them with swappable batteries. It is idiocy to keep building EV's with batteries that are essentially part of the chassis and body.

 

 

 

[octave]

This is one example of an early EV. EVs of this vintage had poor battery management and no battery cooling.  In the last 10 years, battery chemistry and construction have improved massively.  Don't take my word for it, just search for rigorous studies.  If you hope to convince me, you need to post something more than one of the very early examples of an EV

 

https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2024/12/existing-ev-batteries-may-last-up-to-40-longer-than-expected+

 

https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/ev-battery-longevity-concerns-unfounded-study-finds

 

 

When it comes to battery swap, I think there is probably a place for it, but let's face it, it is not the solution for recharging large numbers of EVs  If you look at countries that are way ahead on EV adoption, battery swaping does not seem to be a flourishing area of enterprise. Of course, at this stage, only one or two models are compatible. The idea that every EV could take the same battery regardless of whether it is a 2-seat convertible a family sedan or an enormous 4-wheel drive a little problematic. The battery for a Rivian is not going to fit in an EV Mini

 

 

As an example, my son (if his car had a swappable battery) could drive to work for 4 or 5 days and then go to a battery swap centre and spend 5 or 10 minutes getting the battery swapped (assuming no queue) and pay a fee that covers the cost of the electricity, fitting etc. or he could drive into his garage once or twice a week, plug the car in and forget it.  At 5 cents a kWh overnight it is hard to see how battery swap could compete.   Tesla batteries are exceeding expectations, so what would be the benefit?

 

Apart from that, how would battery swap stations work in the situation in this clip?     637 chargers serving 3300 cars a day  

 

 

 

[onetrack]

Quote

The idea that every EV could take the same battery regardless of whether it is a 2-seat convertible a family sedan or an enormous 4-wheel drive a little problematic. The battery for a Rivian is not going to fit in an EV Mini

All that is required is a standard battery design and shape. Manufacturers have done this before, with a myriad of everyday items we use - the same standard fitment applies across a range of manufacturers. Imagine if every electrical manufacturer made their own plugs and sockets and loudly proclaimed their design was best? This is what is happening today.

 

We used to have phones with swappable batteries. Then the manufacturers decided that wasn't a money-spinner for them, so they now make sealed phones with single-use batteries.

The problem now is, the amount of phones with good life left in them being discarded by the hundreds of millions, creating a huge waste problem. EV's are heading the same way.

 

The phone problem has gotten so bad in Europe, the EU has now declared that all new phones must be repairable, be more easily disassembled, and have longer life batteries. I'd like to see replaceable batteries return in phones, I'd buy one in an instant.

 

EV's need to last 30 or 40 years, the same as IC-engined cars, otherwise the level of discarded EV vehicles will become a massive waste problem.

Taxis in China are primarily, battery-swap models. The design allows for virtually non-stop use of the vehicle. China is working on battery standardisation.

 

An EV with a swappable battery has huge benefits to buyers. The vehicle life can be extended substantially. The buyer can buy an EV much cheaper, because it comes without a battery.

You can then rent or buy the battery you need, for your style of use. You only want a battery for city driving? -  you rent or buy a small battery. You want to take a long trip? - you rent or buy a big battery.

Battery renting makes more sense, just as BBQ gas bottles have gone that way.

 

As battery technology improves, you could fit improved models of battery. No longer will you have to scrap your perfectly good car (as in the Fiats case), simply because the battery is toast, and it's built into the car, making accessibility and repair simply uneconomic.

 

https://mobilityportal.eu/china-battery-swapping-electric-vehicles/

[Jerry_Atrick]

While the west argues about whether or not to adopt EVs, often with the facts distorted by those with vested interests, China just gets on with it with few problems and a vision. 

 

We say the US dynasty is in its dying throes, but I can't help it is the western cultural and political system that is. 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 05:31 PM by Jerry_Atrick

[nomadpete]

10 hours ago, onetrack said:

my argument remains that the only way to make EV's fully superior to IC-engined vehicles, is to build them with swappable batteries

Personally, I  agree with that statement. IF I was buying a new car, AND the infrastructure was already there, I'd go for swappable batteries. 

 

But our cars are both over 15 years old. I  repair stuff.

 

In Australia the average age of registered vehicles is about 10 years. 

 

The average car does surprisingly low mileage 12,000 k's per year - (120,000k in ten yrs). So I cannot fathom the range anxiety issue that is so prevalent.

 

Anyway, my point is that most people don't keep their car long enough to warrant the extra costs involved in manufacturing a swappable battery. Excepting the commercial users.

 

Many people replace their car after the first set of tyres wear out. These days, in spite of the pollution crisis, everything is 'throwaway'

 

Further, there is lag in building the support structure for chargers. Consider the lag and expense involved in rolling out the support infrastructure required for a standardised battery swapping industry.

 

In short, a car with swappable battery will be more expensive, heavier, more complex to engineer, and for the average motorist, offer little in return for all that.

 

[octave]

7 hours ago, onetrack said:

All that is required is a standard battery design and shape.

I think that simplifies a huge problem.  There would have to be at least several form factors for very different cars  (Rivian - Mini).  I feel a problem is that this would lead to the car being designed around the battery, which could hold innovation.

 

I agree that phones should have replaceable batteries (actually you can change the batt on just about any phone but it is a bit onerous)   The non swappable battery is just not to make more money but does actually serve a purpose.  A couple of months ago I slipped while getting out of my kayak and I fell into chest deep water with my phone in my pocket. The phone was well and truly submerged but it was fine. Any way I digress.

 

7 hours ago, onetrack said:

EV's need to last 30 or 40 years, the same as IC-engined cars, otherwise the level of discarded EV vehicles will become a massive waste problem.

Whoa there, that is a big claim. An IC car can last 40 years or more, but this is rare and calls for meticulous maintenance.  I have never had a new car and my cars do tend to be older but at some point, mechanics start to complain that they cant get that spare part that you need to get back on the road. Do we want to drive around in a 40 year car in terms of safety features?

 

8 hours ago, onetrack said:

The vehicle life can be extended substantially.

There are early EVs around that have had their  battery replaced. Initially this was expensive however the price is falling.  There are 3rd party battery solutions.

Cost:

40 kWh battery: Replacement can cost around $6,500 - $7,500. 

62 kWh battery: Replacement can cost around $8,500 - $9,500

24 kWh battery: Replacement can cost around $3,000 - $5,000. 

30 kWh battery: Replacement can cost around $3,500 - $4,500. 

 

8 hours ago, onetrack said:

The buyer can buy an EV much cheaper, because it comes without a battery.

I am not sure about that but I will have a look around. It stands to reason that the battery has to be paid for somehow. The battery swap station is not supplying the battery for nothing.   Battery leasing, I imagine, would be cheaper up front however, not in the long run.  It is like renting a house is cheaper up front than buying a house.

 

8 hours ago, onetrack said:

Battery renting makes more sense, just as BBQ gas bottles have gone that way.

When I lived in the bush, I used to go through a 9kg cylinder a week.  With the cylinder swap system, you do need to start with a cylinder or pay more for the first one. Mostly I would get them refilled because it was much cheaper.

 

8 hours ago, onetrack said:

No longer will you have to scrap your perfectly good car

Batteries ARE lasting the distance (see the research). The standard battery warranty is 8 years and 160,000 km, and some now are 10 years or 250,000 km.  If I buy a new EV with a brand-new swappable battery and the first time I swap, I may get a battery that is towards the end of its life.

 

8 hours ago, onetrack said:

toast, and it's built into the car,

Although I think Tesla batteries form part of the structure, this does not mean they are not replaceable.

 

What about the convenience and economy of charging at home?    

I believe Nio charges to 90%.  The charging rate slows down substantially for that last portion of the charge.   My son charges his EV to 80% however, for a road trip, he will charge it to 100% He is able to manage his own charging regime.

8 hours ago, onetrack said:

Taxis in China are primarily, battery-swap models.

This is not correct. The majority of Taxis in China are not battery swap models.

 

"In China, most electric vehicle (EV) taxis utilize plug-in charging rather than battery swapping. While battery swapping is an option, particularly for commercial vehicles like taxis and logistics trucks, plug-in charging remains the dominant method for EVs in general. China is also rapidly expanding its network of both battery swap stations and fast-charging stations." 

 

To be clear, I am not against battery swapping, and I see room for both, but when I eventually purchase an EV, I want to charge it mostly at home from relatively cheap (at the moment) overnight power or my excess solar. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nomadpete]

Bearing in mind that charging times are steadily becoming less inconvenient.....

 

Now that the integrated batteries can last a million kilometers and 15 years, the argument against swappable batteries is as invalid as suggesting swappable engines and fuel tanks on petrol cars.

 

Up until around 1930'ish your petrol was hand pumped up into a glass container for a visual check of colour/impurities, then drained by gravity into your car. And only a couple of gallons delivered at a time. I don't recall anyone suggested we should have prefilled swappable petrol tanks stacked up at a servo back then. Sure, we now have fast electric powered petrol refilling nowadays. It was only a minor inconvenience anyway.

 

A process of improvement similar to what is happening as the EV transition develops.

[octave]

Just 2 further points:  How many swap stations would be required to replace the Shenzhen charging hub (637 chargers and a throughput of 3300 cars per day)?

If a swapping facility needs more than one battery capacity or physical size, then that number grows.  I am not sure if this is a good use of resources.

[Marty_d]

Horses for courses.

 

Battery swap is probably good for trucks and other commercial vehicles, where the spares can be recharged at the depot and the truck isn't losing valuable time off the road being charged.

For cars, especially under current ownership model, probably doesn't make sense.

[octave]

Here is an extremely detailed analysis of swap vs charge.  It is quite long and nerdy, but worth watching.   For those who are interested but don't want to invest 34 minutes, you can jump to the 29:52 point for s succinct summary. 

 

 

 

[kgwilson]

My MG4 EV has a battery pack that can easily be removed for repair or replacement. MG (SAIC) introduced what it called its MG MSP (modular scalable platform) in 2022 when the MG4 was first introduced. The battery pack is just 110mm thick and sits under the cabin flat floor of the car behind the front and in front of the rear running gear. It can easily be disconnected and dropped out for repair or replacement. The batteries are both LFP & NMC lithium ranging from 50 to 80 kWh.

 

 

There is little point in having a fast swap process in my opinion as like at least 85% of EV owners we charge at home via an AC slow charger and only at fast DC chargers when on a long trip. As I have said before I need a break after 400 km so am happy to have the car charge for 20-30 minutes while we have lunch or whatever. If I stop at a 350 kW supercharger the charge time is half that and it is very poor etiquette to let your car sit at a charger after the battery is full. Also most of us fully understand that the last 20% of charging takes nearly as long as the first 60% or 70%. 

 

All modern EVs have GPS & internet connectivity so you get alarms to say when the battery has reached certain charge levels. 

 

I have done 27,000km now and recently borrowed an OBD2 scanner & plugged it in to the car. It shows heaps of data but the battery health was the most interesting to me. It was still showing 100%. 95% of my charging has been done at home with my 32 Amp wall mounted EVSE & has cost virtually nothing as I get 2 hours of free power a day plus I have 8kW of solar panels on the roof.

[red750]

 

We carry a spare tyre in case of a flat. You can get power banks for your phone, iPad or laptop. Maybe a backup power supply with limied emergency range could be a solution to get you to the next charging station. My old iPhone 6 goes flat quickly. My daughter gave my a power pack for Christmas which will recharge my phone 3 or 4 times before recharging the power pck is required. Cheaper than a replacement battery.