Sanctions against Russia

[facthunter]

They are laughing all the way to the Patent Office. Nev

[onetrack]

I'm not defending Khodorkovsky, he's as crooked as any other oligarch. I have little doubt he wants Putin gone, so he can return to Russia and engineer to acquire more of the national wealth than he's legally entitled to, as so many of them have done.

But I simply put the interview with Khodorkovsky up, to show that because he's just as criminally-minded as Putin and the rest of them, he understands exactly how they think and operate.

[Jerry_Atrick]

I wasn't suggesting he was being protrayed as a saint..  Not in the faintest (or feigntest)!

[willedoo]

Apologies for thread drift, but thought it might be of interest to someone.

 

I was going through some old files and came across this photo of President Obomber's Russian reset button. In 2009, Obomber had promised to push the reset button on relations with Russia, so they made up a little yellow box with a big red button for Secretary Clinton to present to Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov. The problem was, typical of the yanks, they didn't do their homework properly. On the box was written the English word 'reset' and what they thought was the Russian translation - 'peregruzka'. Peregruzka has quite the opposite meaning and roughly translates to overload, overgharge etc.. Too much, in other words.

 

The term 'peregruzka' is commonly heard in aircraft automatic voice warning systems. If you exceed the AOA in a Sukhoi or MiG, RITA ( Russia's Bitching Betty) will nag you with Igrol (angle), Attaki (attack) - Peregruzka, or too much angle of attack. Lavrov and Killary pushed the wrong button back in 2009.

[willedoo]

Harvest time in Ukraine.

[willedoo]

An interesting article on Sydney-based company, DroneShield, who are supplying drone jammers to Ukraine.

https://www.afr.com/world/europe/homegrown-defence-company-helping-ukraine-take-out-russian-drones-20220515-p5alfh

[facthunter]

You would think it was fairly easy  to take control and send them back to sender even.. Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

[Jerry_Atrick]

 

[willedoo]

10 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

 

That was a well presented and accurate update. Interesting point about the Warthog's. Long term, you would think it's not sustainable for Ukraine to maintain a fleet of Russian made Migs, Sukhois and Mil aircraft. For transports, Antonov is Ukrainian, so no problems there, but they will eventually have to convert to Western military aircraft at some point in time.

[facthunter]

This outrageous situation can't go on indefinitely. Surely some of the misinformation will be exposed. ALL WAR is madness as the residue of Hate lingers forever. If it's in a far land you can turn a blind eye but not when you share a long common border and have people of a family on either side being common.   The damage Cost and economic losses accumulate too.  Nev..

[Jerry_Atrick]

The analysis over here is that it is going to go on for quite some time. The BBC has been broadcasting on their shortwave service and through TOR (not the dark web) in Russian, but much of the voting population don't access these mediums. There is no doubt that many are wilfully ignorant because of what can happen to them if they educate themselves.

 

My son today raised the point that the average Russian is suffering because of this (in no way in the same magnitude as Ukrainians, of course), and it is not their fault but their leader's fault. And yes, it is, to an extent, but as I pointed out to my son, when Putin was elevated/elected, Russia was a democracy, and yet the population continuied to vote him in, despite the changes he made along they way, that would normally send a red flag. Therefore, like Aussies who voted in Abo and ScoMo, and the Brits who voted in BoJo, they Russians deserve the president they elected and acqueised to the erosion of democracy with. Obviously, the younger ones, no...

[Old Koreelah]

Perhaps we should only blame dumb voters for their government if they had full knowledge- which very few democracies have.

Wherever insidious propaganda networks like Murdoch’s have gained a foothold, the quality of government deteriorates.

[facthunter]

Putin arranged it so he stayed there and to protest it is a life threatening experience. A certain deterrent in place there. HE also "sells" the idea Russia must have a STRONG leader (HIM) or they won't survive. The only real choice is to leave as many have. Nev

[Old Koreelah]

Just now, facthunter said:

Putin arranged it so he stayed there and to protest it is a life threatening experience. A certain deterrent in place there. HE also "sells" the idea Russia must have a STRONG leader (HIM) or they won't survive. The only real choice is to leave as many have. Nev

…and that brain drain hammers any chances for the future; the best and brightest leave and probably most of those who could have ushered in any semblance of a future democratic renewal.

 

On the other hand, that happened to NZ not so long ago. Then many kiwi expats came home, bringing new ideas and skills, transforming their nation. Lets hope that, after the Putin disaster is over, the same will happen to Russia.

[facthunter]

I don't know that your comparison choice is very valid but Point taken. People don't leave their HOMELAND readily. New Zealand in many ways always punches above it's weight and it's a tougher place to live than Australia. I give the Inhabitants credit for that effort not anything WE have shown them. (Except what NOT to do).   Nev

[willedoo]

9 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

The analysis over here is that it is going to go on for quite some time.

It's hard to see it any other way. Technically, the war has been going for eight years now, with this year's full scale invasion by the Russians bringing it to another level. I doubt it will ever be over, as both sides will never completely back down. I can see it going to a Korea style cease fire at best. What some people forget is that this is not just a case of Ukraine fighting Russia, but Ukraine fighting Russia and the two self proclaimed Donbass republics.

 

The majority of people in the Donbass republic's boundaries post 2014 and pre February 2022, will never accept Ukrainian rule. Over time, most supporters of Ukraine have moved west of the 2014 boundaries, and a lot of Donbass supporters have moved east. Even if Ukraine offered them a peace deal of their original goals of semi-autonomous states in a federated Ukraine, there has now been too much blood split to go back. Poroshenko of Ukraine blew it years ago when he refused to enter in to any negotiations with the Donbass authorities, and launched a military attack on them instead. In the current Ukraine/Russia war, it's easier to pick sides, good from bad, but in the original Donbass conflict, neither side are squeaky clean.

 

Only my opinion, but I think Zelensky and Co. are dreaming if they think they will ever get back the pre 2014 Ukrainian boundaries. Even in the rare chance it happened, they would face a permanently hostile local population along with subversion and partisan activities forever. Probably the best they could hope for is a cease fire peace deal on roughly current boundaries, with a Russian withdrawal from the west bank of the Dnieper, guaranteeing security of Ukrainian shipping.

 

The problem with a deal like that, the Ukrainians know Putin wants more, not less, and that his word means nothing in any deal. The current front lines as boundaries would leave Ukraine's second largest city, Kharkov, even more vulnerable as it would lie well within a salient with Russian held territory on three sides. It would only be a matter of time before Putin decided to take it. The Ukrainians know they can only lose by negotiating with the Russians at present, so they see their only option as continuing the fight. Ukraine will only back down if or when the West gets tired of arming them. I think both sides want an end to it, but they both want to hold the most cards in any future deal. The war will go on until one side is too broken to stay in it.

 

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by willedoo

[facthunter]

That's NOT a solution though, is it? Putin has shown he can't be believed and has actually threatened the future of the entire world. I would suggest even the Chinese are aware of that. NATO and the US have have never  allowed any room for Russia to feel secure. Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

I may have missed something, but I don't recall the west being particularly threatening to Russia much after the cold war ended.. Happy to be corrected, though.

[willedoo]

5 minutes ago, facthunter said:

That's NOT a solution though, is it? Putin has shown he can't be believed and has actually threatened the future of the entire world. I would suggest even the Chinese are aware of that. NATO and the US have have never  allowed any room for Russia to feel secure. Nev

I would agree there. The only solution would be for Putin to disappear. That would probably lead to a Russian withdrawal as none of his lackeys would have the backbone to carry on with it. And for any lasting peace after that, there would have to be a UN brokered peace deal between Ukraine and the break-away regions. That would amount to Ukraine ceding to the original demands of the rebels. In other words, federal state status giving them the right to speak their own language and follow their own culture. It's really the only option as Ukraine would never agree to their independence.

[facthunter]

Look at the "Leaders" we have in Belarus and Hungary?  Nev

[willedoo]

15 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I may have missed something, but I don't recall the west being particularly threatening to Russia much after the cold war ended.. Happy to be corrected, though.

There mightn't be any direct threat, but it's a perceived threat to the Russians. They look at the expanding geography of NATO and see it as a future threat, particularly as it's not expanding in the opposite direction of Russia. The map below explains some of Putler's paranoia, especially if you add the NATO wannabes like Sweden, Finland, Georgia and Ukraine. Out of the countries in Russia's neighbourhood, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia,Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro, North Macedonia and the former East Germany have joined NATO since the Cold War ended.

[facthunter]

It's the same with Taiwan . You have increasing restrictions applying in China and life it Taiwan is much better. you can't make people love you by beating them up. Chiang Ki Shek might have been a bit of a crook but that's a long time ago now. The students who raided the US embassy in Iran didn't want some Nutty God botherer running the show either who can't be voted out, but that's what they got and THEY are pretty educated bunch. with a long History and culture. Nev

[Old Koreelah]

50 minutes ago, willedoo said:

There mightn't be any direct threat, but it's a perceived threat to the Russians…

So… the rest of the world has to adapt to the traditional Russian paranoia?

Perhaps it’s time Russians learned what (most of) the western Europeans have: living with their neighbours leads to peace and properity.

[pmccarthy]

Something like 600 villages in Belorussia were burned by the Germans in Ww2 and all the people killed. We sometimes forget the history behind current emotions and prejudices.