rgmwa

That's the bottom line really isn't it? If you can make the required leap of faith, it neatly solves the problem (at least superficially). If you can't, you have to live with the fact that you don't have the answer, and that even if you did, you may not like it. rgmwa

No, not mocking, just bemused. I'm certainly no biblical scholar, but the relevant passage you quoted sounds more like a riddle than a roadmap to me. rgmwa

GG, in seriousness, how do you know exactly what he said or what he meant? I assume you weren't there at the time. rgmwa

Yes, all the established denominations have their own particular practices and rituals, and this example of the confessional is peculiar to the RC's. Of course there's the joke about the recalcitrant who hadn't been to confession for many years, but finally thought he should put in an appearance to clear the account. He opened the door of the confessional, went in and knelt down in the gloom, but then noticed that the confessional walls were tastefully decorated, the floor was expensively carpeted, a small shelf contained a selection of fine wines and cigars, and there were some small but expensive paintings on the walls too. "Well, this is a surprise", he thought, "things have certainly changed since I was here last". Just then the door opened, and he turned around to find the priest glaring at him. "Get out of there, you idiot" said the priest angrily. "That's my side!" rgmwa

Gnu, nobody is perfect and like all of us, I've done and said a few things in my 6 or so decades that I am not particularly proud of and would change if I could. However, I'm also not looking for redemption. I'm prepared to accept responsibility for myself and whatever I've done wrong, and I'm not at all concerned about facing whatever the future may bring, if anything. I certainly don't feel the need to rely on a Saviour or anybody else to rescue me or forgive me my sins. Perhaps that's where you and I differ. Just for the record, I had a sound Catholic upbringing - head altar boy, regular church attendance, confession. etc. I gave it away in my teens when I grew old enough to start thinking for myself and question some of the things I'd been told all my life. For instance, what do you think the average 7 year old has done that requires going to confession for the first time to ask forgiveness? All I could think of was pinching a tomato from the garden at my mate's place one weekend. It wasn't much, but it was all I could come up with to take to the priest in the confessional on the day. Penalty - three Hail Mary's and an Our Father, and I was good for another week. Pretty pathetic really, given what some of the clergy were obviously up to at the time. On another occasion, when I was about 16 my mates were around one afternoon and the topic was religion. I was a Catholic, the father of one of my friends was the C of E minister, another one was also C of E and the last was a Lutheran. My younger sister who was about 13 came in and at one point said to the Lutheran "why don't you become a Catholic?". He simply said, "I don't want to". I can still see the incredulous expression on my sister's face. She simply couldn't understand how anyone would turn down an offer of eternal salvation so casually. She had been brought up to believe that the Catholics had it right and all the others were heathens and on their way to Hell unless they could be saved. Sounds a lot like what you're trying to tell us, doesn't it? Sorry, but I just can't buy it. rgmwa

Gnu, history demonstrates pretty clearly that people of blind faith, no faith and all shades of faith in between are collectively responsible for what has happened in the past and continues today. I don't understand why you persist in demonising one particular group when there is plenty of culpability to go around. rgmwa

Maybe Ian should change the name of the site from Recreational Flying to Recreational Salvation to make it more relevant. rgmwa

Biblical version of elephant in the room? rgmwa

In which countries was Atheism ever implemented as a religion? Even in countries like Australia where many people have atheist views, they live side by side with people like yourself who have different world views. The same was/is true in all other countries I can think of. As far as "the desire to suppress anyone who doesn't agree with Atheist views" goes, well you can substitute almost any other belief system you like in that sentence including Christianity in its various forms. rgmwa

Meant to and in principle, yes - goes with the job. However, whatever he personally believes, he also has to try to interpret those ancient and questionable biblical texts and words attributed to JC in a way that makes religious, scientific and political sense in current times. The world is a vastly different place to what it was a couple of thousand years ago. I think he's doing his best to jog the conservative church hierarcy out of some out-dated and entrenched political and religious postions but whether he succeeds or not remains to be seen. rgmwa

That assumes that because it's in the Bible it must be true - a very shaky proposition IMO. rgmwa

Based on what he said, full marks to the Pope for doing his best to use the scientific method (fitting theory to observation) to explain Life, the Universe and Everything. However, his explanation still doesn't sound very convincing to me. rgmwa (ex-rc)

I always understood that there were originally 15 Commandments, but because Moses accidentally dropped one of the tablets on his way down the mountain, we only ever got to see ten. Now I find there are 613! This is the most educational thread I've read in ages. rgmwa

Hmmm. Sounds alright, but now I'm a bit worried that the endless perfection might eventually make me die of boredom. Is that possible, I wonder? Wouldn't I already be dead? But then, I suppose that boredom would be prohibited in a perfect world, wouldn't it, so I might be OK. On the other hand, it's probably an academic question. If the place is really only open to the believers as you say, then I'm going to struggle to get through the door. And even if I did, I doubt that any of my friends and relatives would be there anyway. Sorry for rambling on a bit. Just thinking out loud. rgmwa

So what do you imagine heaven would be like, rev? rgmwa

No, just hiding our ignorance. rgmwa

The FW190 was designed for easy maintenance too, and both the ME109 and FW190 usually had great looking colour schemes. Pierre Clostermann specifically mentions in his book how spectacular they looked in the air. rgmwa

Unfortunately for me perhaps, that's the bit I have trouble with. rgmwa

Fortunately, most children seem grow up relatively unscathed whatever their parent's religious beliefs may be, and eventually make up their own minds about what to believe, or not, as is often the case. Personally I find it difficult to understand what it is about any religion that convinces people to place their faith in it. The problems really start when the more zealous amongst them then go and try to convert others to their beliefs, and the whole thing gets out of hand. It has always seemed to me that some poor native happily worshipping the sun because he's worked out that it makes his crops grow and he'd like to see it come up again tomorrow, has a far more rational reason to believe in his sun god than the proseltysing missionary who comes along one day waving a bible in his face and telling him he's been wrong all his life. rgmwa

Unfortunately the devout followers of both sides have each perpetrated their fair share of massacres in good faith down through the ages. Plenty of Greek, Roman and other gods to choose from too if you want to compare attributes. rgmwa

Yes, I saw those programs too, and also stopped listening to the various popes too many years ago to remember now. It wasn't this pope who said hell didn't exist as a place anyway, it was one of the other ones. Mind you, I am a bit surprised at your own comments above. People are only human after all, even the popes, and it does seem to indicate a certain lack of Christian tolerance, humility and forbearance on your part, Gnu. Frankly, I'm a little disappointed. rgmwa

I thought the pope told the Catholics that hell doesn't exist. That makes it official doesn't it? rgmwa

No problem, Gnu. I find it quite entertaining. I'm a skeptic myself, but hoping to be pleasantly surprised one day. Between my parents and siblings, we've got an athiest, a couple of agnostics, a catholic (small c), a born-again christian (slightly larger c), and a career hare krisna (small h and k), so I reckon we've got all bases covered. I'm sure one of us must be on the right track. Can't wait to see who it is. rgmwa

Is this the definition of religion you were referring to?: http://www.hcourt.gov.au/assets/publications/speeches/current-justices/frenchcj/frenchcj14may13.pdf Their Honours said: We would hold the test of religious belief to be satisfied by belief in supernatural Things or Principles and not to be limited to belief in God or in a supernatural Being otherwise described. The joint judgment of Wilson and Deane JJ also demonstrated the difficulty of formulating a workable legal criterion for determining whether a set of beliefs, practices and observances is a religion. Their Honours identified the following indicia: • The particular collection of ideas and/or practices involves belief in the supernatural, that is to say, belief that reality extends beyond that which is capable of perception by the senses. • The ideas of the religion relate to man's nature and place in the universe and his relation to things supernatural. • The ideas are accepted by adherents as requiring or encouraging them to observe particular standards or codes of conduct or to participate in specific practices having supernatural significance. • However loosely knit and varying in beliefs and practices adherents may be, they constitute an identifiable group or identifiable groups. • The adherents themselves see the collection of ideas and/or practices as constituting a religion. When did Darwin's theory become elevated to a supernatural thing or principle? I always thought it was based on entirely natural processes. rgmwa

Turbocad has been around for a long time and may be an option. I had a copy once and it seemed pretty good, but I didn't have much need for a CAD package. http://www.turbocad.com/ rgmwa Edit: I see TP just beat me to it!