The climate change debate continues.

[nomadpete]

I remind you that the Brisbane pumped hydo has been running for about 45 years. it has two turbines capable of 600Mw with online ability in seconds.

 

Maintenance costs are a fraction of other generator types as there are no burners, fuel delivery or storage, no waste or boilers or turbines.

 

There must be plenty of other locations suitable for more plant like this.

 

I suspect that Snowy was more of a political than sensible decision.

 

 

 

Edited 5 hours ago by nomadpete

[facthunter]

They ran into terrible rock formations that were unexpected with the Snowy site. It's there for energy  Storage and available at short Notice. There's Plenty of suitable sites all along the East Coast of Australia with no need at all to use salt water.  You use the water over and over. Nev

[Siso]

If they are so good(and I love pumped hydro) Why aren't they building more. Ireland has one that fills up at night with coal and then runs with coal during the day. That runs well. Turlogh hill I think. You are right there are other spots around the east coast of Australia, doesn't do the rest of us much good. You think they would have had some geologists and engineers that would have allowed for hitting rock when boring through a mountain in the initial price. I think they under quoted so they could get started and then slug the government more money later on. bet that has never been done before!! Same ting is happening with a lot of transmission projects

 

https://www.afr.com/policy/energy-and-climate/transgrid-inflated-cost-of-running-power-line-underground-farmers-20230718-p5dp2o

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-03-01/energy-transmission-project-billion-blowout/104983108

 

 

 

[nomadpete]

1 minute ago, Siso said:

Why aren't they building more.

My cynical suspicion is the same reason that Australian infrastructure  always lags behind the needs of the populace. There are no votes in infrastructure that won't be finished before the next election. Combine that with the desperate attempts to avoid the opposition labelling it "overspending", and winning the next election.

 

This applies to highways, railways, public transport, hospitals, power and water. etc, etc.

 

Maybe also, the public has learned to expect that even after all these years of practice, governments still can't write a decent contract that doesn't allow for endless cost blowouts.

[octave]

11 minutes ago, Siso said:

Why aren't they building more

If you are referring to the whole world, well, they are building more.

 

• Globally, pumped hydro has ~200 GW of installed capacity
• That represents the vast majority (over 90%) of long-duration energy storage
• Dozens of new projects are still being built each year

So while individual schemes are large and relatively few compared to, say, solar farms, they are widespread and globally significant.

---

📍 Where are they?

🇨🇳 China (world leader)

• Largest total capacity (~50+ GW)
• Massive new projects like Fengning (one of the world’s biggest)
• Hundreds more under construction

👉 China uses pumped hydro heavily to stabilise its huge wind and solar buildout.

---

🇯🇵 Japan

• ~20+ GW installed
• One of the earliest adopters
• Built to balance nuclear and now renewables

---

🇺🇸 United States

• ~16–17 GW installed
• Famous example: Bath County (often called the “world’s largest battery”)

---

🇪🇺 Europe (widely distributed)

• Major countries: Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Spain
• Example: Germany has multiple plants used for grid balancing
• Scotland hosts many of the UK’s biggest schemes

---

🇦🇺 Australia

• Existing:
  • Shoalhaven scheme (NSW)
  • Tasmanian hydro system
• Major new build:
  • Snowy 2.0 (huge expansion project)

 

---

🌎 Other notable regions

• South America – Brazil and Chile expanding capacity
• India – growing fast to support solar
• Africa – early-stage development (e.g., South Africa)

---

👍 Are they successful?

Short answer: Yes—very successful, but with caveats

✅ Strengths

1. Proven and reliable

• Technology has been used for 50+ years
• Extremely well understood and dependable

2. Grid stabilisation

• Acts like a giant battery:
  • Stores excess power
  • Releases it when needed

3. Long lifespan

• Often lasts 50–100 years (much longer than batteries)

4. Scale

• Can store huge amounts of energy (hours to days)

---

⚠️ Limitations

1. Geography matters

• Needs suitable elevation and water
• Not every location works economically

2. High upfront cost

• Big civil engineering projects (tunnels, dams)

3. Long build times

• Projects like Snowy 2.0 take years and can face delays

4. Environmental concerns

• Land use, water impacts, and community opposition

---

🤔 Big-picture takeaway

• Pumped hydro is not new or experimental—it’s the backbone of global energy storage.
• It’s especially valuable as countries add more wind and solar.
• While batteries are growing fast, pumped hydro still dominates for large-scale, long-duration storage.

🌍 How much is being built?

• Around 100+ GW of pumped hydro is already under construction globally
• The total development pipeline is enormous (~600 GW)
• Annual additions are rising and could double to ~16.5 GW per year by 2030

👉 That’s not a niche build-out—that’s a major global infrastructure push.

---

📍 Where is the construction happening?

🇨🇳 China (dominates the boom)

• By far the biggest builder
• 200+ GW under construction alone
• Adding multiple large plants every year

👉 China is essentially treating pumped hydro as core grid infrastructure for renewables.

---

🇮🇳 India & Asia-Pacific

• Rapid expansion to support solar growth
• New multi-GW projects announced (e.g. Maharashtra schemes)
• Strong growth across Asia-Pacific generally

---

🇪🇺 Europe

• Lots of medium-sized projects and upgrades
• Example:
  • New plant in Norway (Illvatn) under construction
  • Hybrid wind + pumped hydro projects (e.g. Crete)

👉 Europe is modernising older hydro + adding storage rather than building mega-dams.

---

🇺🇸 United States

• Several projects in development:
  • Example: Seminoe (900 MW)
• Many more proposed—potential to more than double capacity

---

🇦🇺 Australia (your backyard)

• Active pipeline:
  • Kidston (QLD) nearing completion
  • Snowy 2.0 under construction
  • Multiple NSW & QLD proposals

⚠️ But:

• Some projects have been delayed or cancelled due to cost blowouts or geology issues (e.g. Pioneer-Burdekin)

---

🌎 Other regions

• Spain: dozens of projects progressing (25 advancing in 2025 alone)
• Africa: early but accelerating growth
• South America: Chile & Brazil expanding

---

📈 Why the sudden surge?

This is the key shift:

👉 Wind and solar are now cheap—but intermittent
👉 Grids need long-duration storage (hours to days)

Pumped hydro is:

• Proven
• Long-lasting (50–100 years)
• Scalable to huge sizes

That’s why it’s having what’s been described as a “renaissance” in energy systems

Reality check (it’s not all smooth)

Even though many are being built:

✔ What’s going well

• Strong government backing
• Clear role in renewable grids
• Massive scale possible

✖ What’s slowing things down

• Long build times (often 7–10 years)
• Cost overruns (common in big civil projects)
• Environmental approvals
• Site-specific risks (geology can kill projects)

 

 

[kgwilson]

In 2017 the ANU identified 22,000 potential pumped hydro sites In Australia.

 

https://arena.gov.au/assets/2018/10/ANU-STORES-An-Atlas-of-Pumped-Hydro-Energy-Storage-The-Complete-Atlas.pdf

 

So despite our flat geography there are 22,000 potential batteries for the huge amount of solar energy we are generating from rooftops and solar farms right now.

 

These are the current projects.

 

Numerous pumped hydro schemes are in development along Australia's east coast, driven by NSW and Queensland's transition to renewables, with key projects including Snowy 2.0 (2,200 MW, NSW), Borumba (2,000 MW, QLD), Pioneer-Burdekin (5,000 MW, QLD), and Phoenix (810 MW, NSW). These projects, targeting completion between 2025–2035, aim to provide large-scale, long-duration storage to firm wind and solar capacity. 

Key Queensland Projects

• Borumba Pumped Hydro (2,000 MW/48,000 MWh): Located near Gympie, slated for 2030 completion.
• Pioneer-Burdekin Pumped Hydro (up to 5,000 MW): Proposed near Mackay, touted as a massive long-duration storage project for 2032–2035.
• Kidston Pumped Storage (250 MW/2,000 MWh): Currently in development, expected in 2025.
• Mt Rawdon Pumped Hydro (2,000 MW): Planned for the early 2030s. 

Key New South Wales Projects

• Snowy 2.0 (2,200 MW/350,000 MWh): Connecting Tantangara and Talbingo reservoirs, expected fully operational by 2028-2029.
• Phoenix Pumped Hydro (810 MW): Located near Mudgee within the Central-West Orana REZ, expected 2029.
• Western Sydney Pumped Hydro (700 MW): Located at Lake Burragorang, currently deemed critical infrastructure.
• Oven Mountain Pumped Hydro (900 MW): Scheduled for 2030.
• Muswellbrook and Dungowan: Regional projects aiming for 2027-2029 completion. 

Strategic Regional Potential

• Mine Conversions: Research indicates significant potential to convert retired mines, such as the Coppabella Mine or pits near the old Liddell Power Station, into pumped hydro sites.
• Existing Reservoirs: Potential exists to upgrade existing infrastructure like Lake Lyell, Windamere, and Burrendong dams. 

These projects are often located in renewable energy zones (REZs) to pair with solar and wind, or near high-voltage transmission lines to support grid stability

 

 

Edited 40 minutes ago by kgwilson

[Siso]

Specifically talking Australia.  Yep, remember when that report came out. Pumped hydro also has a round trip efficiency of about 80% which is pretty good.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Re nuclear, We have oodles of solar, wind, and wave... 

 

Re cost blowouts.. well, I wouldn't worry - I have never worked on a nuclear plant that didn't have one, and Hinkley Point C, in 2016 prices is going fro an original £18bn to £35bn in 2016 money (about £46bn in today's money). 

 

According to Google AI, Australian industry is moving to solar:

 

Again, you can stick to old ways of doing things and hamstring us with high costs. Well done. Making Austalia Competitive Again (MACA).. Maybe that is all we will be able to afford to eat - MACCAs

 

When I first entered the nuclear industry - now 30 years ago, I was all for Australia getting coasstal nuclear power stations. The renewable technology was not really there yet and it made a lot more sense that staying with coal - especially since we bloody well own the resources needed to run the darned thiungs. 

 

But we also have abundant sources of renewable energy and the technology has progressed immensly since then. Nuclear is, for Australia, the new fossil fuel. 

 

Even in the UK, where the sun is variable at best, wind is being used as is solar. Rooftop solar, before the Iran war, was steadily pickung up and the government ar debatign about whether to make it mandatory for new build properties. 

Edited 6 minutes ago by Jerry_Atrick

[Siso]

Australian industry is moving overseas! Bell bay smelter is closing down by the looks of it.Solar is high cost when you look past the generating electricity part.