Middle East conflict

[facthunter]

Iranians are NOT Arabs.  BTW did anyone watch Trumps SPEECH about 2 Hours ago? Nev

[Siso]

26 minutes ago, Litespeed said:

Provocation is the excuse of bullies, tyrants and murderous regimes.

 

So, when a child throws a rock at a invading tank, that's sufficient to shoot them dead?

 

Happens daily and Israel just justifies itself.

So its OK if they come into a country, kill 1400? civilians as well as other incursions over the last few years. Is Israel just supposed to talk about and contact their local Employee assistance program to help them get over it? 

[facthunter]

No one thinks that Incursion was Justified But why did BIBI Ignore the Advice from the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood that  Something BIG was about to Happen and where was Mossad at the time?   Israel is also Clearly expansionist. Nev

[rgmwa]

41 minutes ago, facthunter said:

BTW did anyone watch Trumps SPEECH about 2 Hours ago? Nev

Yes. I think he just read out the last four weeks of his midnight Truth Social rants. 

Edited 7 hours ago by rgmwa

[Marty_d]

48 minutes ago, Siso said:

So its OK if they come into a country, kill 1400? civilians as well as other incursions over the last few years. Is Israel just supposed to talk about and contact their local Employee assistance program to help them get over it? 

Of course it's not ok. But do you think the response was proportionate? 

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

Iranians are NOT Arabs.

That's right. The nation originated from the migration of Indo-Iranian tribes (Medes, Persians, Parthians) from Central Asia to the Iranian Plateau around the 2nd millennium BC. They established some of the first civilisations in the region of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. Their religion was Zoroastrianism. It is one of the world's oldest monotheistic faiths, founded in ancient Persia (modern-day Iran) by Prophet Zoroaster. Its influence was reduced by Islamisation during the 7th Century CE. A lot escaped to India where they mainly live in Mumbai.

 

Persian (Fārsi) is the official language of Iran, spoken natively by roughly 50-70% of the population and understood by most others. As an Indo-European language, it is unrelated to Arabic, though it uses a modified Arabic script.

 

 

[Siso]

54 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

Of course it's not ok. But do you think the response was proportionate? 

Maybe, maybe not. I have never been in this position, but I feel it was about more than just this one incident.

[rgmwa]

19 minutes ago, Siso said:

Maybe, maybe not. I have never been in this position, but I feel it was about more than just this one incident.

Yes, it was also about Netanyahu trying to keep himself in power and out of prison.

[Siso]

2 minutes ago, rgmwa said:

Yes, it was also about Netanyahu trying to keep himself in power and out of prison.

mmmm!

[Marty_d]

33 minutes ago, Siso said:

Maybe, maybe not. 

That idiot from Australia went to NZ and gunned down 51 people.

If NZ then invaded Australia, killing 2500 people of which maybe 100 were white supremacists, and destroyed masses of public infrastructure including your house, would you think it was a fair response?

Because that's what Israel has done.

[red750]

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

Iranians are NOT Arabs.  BTW did anyone watch Trumps SPEECH about 2 Hours ago? Nev

Well it was on the tele at the Shed, but I couldn't hear it. Others talking over the top of him, making jokes, and someone in the workshop using the belt sander. But I knew he was lying, his lips were moving.

[Siso]

 

24 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

That idiot from Australia went to NZ and gunned down 51 people.

If NZ then invaded Australia, killing 2500 people of which maybe 100 were white supremacists, and destroyed masses of public infrastructure including your house, would you think it was a fair response?

Because that's what Israel has done.

apples and oranges, 1 person goes and kills a heap of people is a lot different to a state sponsored mass killing, especially if they have been poking the bear for many years. It is not nearly the same thing!

[facthunter]

Who's been poking who? It goes back to about 1948.. Nev

[Siso]

12 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Who's been poking who? It goes back to about 1948.. Nev

Yes it is a complicated situation. How far do you actually want to go back. Its been going a lot longer than that.

[facthunter]

Once they start saying "chosen by God" I'm lost for words. Hitler's Final solution was Diabolical. Settling in the ME is a hard ask.. Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

6 hours ago, Litespeed said:

Provocation is the excuse of bullies, tyrants and murderous regimes.

 

So, when a child throws a rock at a invading tank, that's sufficient to shoot them dead?

 

Happens daily and Israel just justifies itself.

Begore I call BS, show evidence. - and that it is systematic.

 

Even Australia has its eveil people - Roberts Smith hasn't even been tried while the whistleblower languishes in prison. Doesn't mean Australia is systematically war criminals 9but it seems to harbour their own, anyway). 

 

You think consant firing of rockets at civilians over the years.. and then breaking through and brutally killing 1500-ish people and taking hostages is throwing stones? 

 

So far peacepul Palestinian protestors? And now that?

 

Give me a break about no antisemetism

Edited 2 hours ago by Jerry_Atrick

[randomx]

One thing l've wondered a lot is, how has Israel, a country of way less than half even our population here, been bombing the hell out of everything over there one way or another 2yrs or however long it's been?

How does such a small country have all these weapons and jets , there's not a hope in hell we could do that .

[Jerry_Atrick]

Maybe because they are living under constant threat, historically from all of their neghbours and if they lose, its curtains. 

 

Read the Hamas Charter - specifically article 7.. It leaves no doubt there is no intention to spare any Jew... anywhere. 

 

Remember, they are a proxy of Iran.. and yes, there are still a few Jews in Iran. 

 

Funny.. if that were in the constiution of Israel - but in reverse - how much attention that would get?

[old man emu]

2 minutes ago, randomx said:

One thing l've wondered a lot is, how has Israel, a country of way less than half even our population here, been bombing the hell out of everything over there one way or another 2yrs or however long it's been?

How does such a small country have all these weapons and jets , there's not a hope in hell we could do that .

Isreal has been a major manufacturer of weapons for yonks. Israel’s industry is heavily dominated by high-technology, innovation, and advanced manufacturing, driven by a strong R&D sector and over 350 multinational centers (e.g., Intel, Apple, Google). Key sectors include electronics, cyber security, defense, pharmaceuticals, and chemical products. Despite limited natural resources, Israel has become a net exporter of natural gas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel

 

Also, like the Arab nations supplying petrol dollars to Arab militants, international Jewry, especially American Jewry, has been funding all sorts of things in Isreal.

[Jerry_Atrick]

On 01/04/2026 at 8:15 AM, Litespeed said:

Jerry, 

 

Israel is a murderous Zionist state that openly commits war crimes and murders thousands of innocent civilians.

Hmmm.. quite a strong statement.. But... I think you mean the other states.

Hamas attack Israel's defenceless citizends when they can identify military targets and rely on theiur defenceless citizens as human shields. Israel seek to destroy their military capability, which is a reasonable response. But Hamas proffer up as their defences - their own defenceless citizens.. Israel even warn of when they are going to attack and where (albeit not enough notice to mobilse a lot of citizens). 

 

Who exactly is the murderous state? I don't recall Israel wantonly going into war without being attacked or in the case of 1967, the obvious mobilisation of an attack on Israel. But if you can name one, I will happily take it back. 

 

Also, for your reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_war

 

Now I haven't done the maths lately, but it represents around 1,000 Palestinians per year ex the current war, but even if you looked at the last 2 year war in isolation, it is 35,000 Palesinians with no sepaation between Hamas and citizens. But lets assume citizens.. And by the way - numbers provided by Hamas, and were once reduced by them.

 

Syria - Civil war - Around 11 years from 580 thousand to 656,00.. Minimum 50,000 year - brutally with barrell bombs and the like.

 

Yemen/Oman - in 6 years, 377,000: https://caat.org.uk/data/countries/saudi-arabia/the-war-on-yemens-civilians/ 

That makes it around 63,000/year. All Yemenis. .Yet hardly anyone even knows about this war - and there wasn't much about it at the time.

 

Iraq/Iran 300,000 civilians including targtetting 200,000 Kurds.. 

 

I could go on.. 

 

Nary a word from anyone. I guess that saying, No Jews, no news.. holds true?

 

Back to Israel. 

 

Answer me this: What killings has Israel perpetrated that were not the result of a threat or an attack? And I am not talking about rogues, for which Israel at least did hold accountable? https://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-02/21/c_136074394.htm

 

And I quote the Israeli judge: ""There was no reason for shooting the terrorist, certainly not at his head," (my bold). Say the roles were reversed.. Would there even be a trial? Or would it be considered an automatic tribulation. 

 

Now to Hamas (and the Palestinians that support them): I suggest you dig out the videos that Hamas took on their attacks. I understand they are available on platforms such as Telegram. I have to admit, I haven't seen them, but the commentary is not one for the squeamish. Remember, these people targetted civilians and murdered them in brutal ways. And according to the commentary, rape in front of their families before behading, heading in front of their families, etc. And it was systematic of the attack (I am sure not all were doing this, but there was enough). And of course the famous soundbyte of a Hamas militant calling his mother celebrating he killed Jews..

 

Now, who is murderous?

Edited 1 hour ago by Jerry_Atrick

[Jerry_Atrick]

On 01/04/2026 at 8:58 AM, facthunter said:

Can we take that as a comment? Depriving people of the essentials of Life and allowing no reporting?  Nev

Even if it were true, by that definition most of the middle eastern states are engaged in some form of terrorism. Haven't heard anyone call Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, etc a terrorsist state yet? 

 

Or is Israel held to a higher standard than anyone else?

 

In other words (and this is not to yourself in particular, Nev), even if Israel did do everyting they are alleged to have done, they receive a lot of venom when there are others that do much much worse, and nary raise an eyebrow. 

 

I call it anti-semitism.. You can hide behind "I am criticising a Zionist government", but even that is anti-semetism.. Because since when is the belief in a Jewish state a problem when there are numerous Christian, Muslim, Hindi, etc states. 

 

Maybe people should have to live - not just visit or layover or attend business meetings in some of these places. And then form a judgement. 

Edited 1 hour ago by Jerry_Atrick

[Jerry_Atrick]

23 hours ago, rgmwa said:

It probably depends what you mean by `terrorist attacks'. I don't think the Israelis are terrorists but their relentless killing of the ordinary civilian population in Gaza and the property destruction they have carried out to make the place virtually uninhabitable borders on genocide. Netanyahu would certainly like to get rid of all the Palestinians, both in Gaza and the West Bank. Of course, most of Israel's neighbours would like to get rid of the Israelis too. Nevertheless, as far as Gaza is concerned, Israel's reprisals against the Palestinians for Hamas's October 7 attack have gone well beyond what Hamas did to them. Also, when it comes to carrying out targeted assassinations, the Israeli intelligence services are pretty ruthless and efficient. 

I don't disagree that Netanyahu would want to see the end of the Palestinians. After the October 7 attacks, I would suspect a growing number of the Israeli population are aligning more that way as well. 

 

And yes, I am sure that the relentless attacks that have taken place have been part motivated by a desire for retribution and growing hate of the Palestinians in Gaza (and probably Ramallah). But that is what a lot of wars are borne from. But, I would also contend that growing hate is as a result of the relentless attacks on them, and no desire to seek peace (Hamas, and others - not necessarily the Palestinian people themselves not wanting to seek peace). I think part of it is motivated by a desire by Netanyau to stay in power as he was increasingly unpopular again and was facing corruption charges. 

 

But, I think in part. And while Netanyau is the boss, it is stilla democracy and he does not ruule alone. Of course, he does have his share of right wingers that are keeping him in power and I think he is doing some of their bidding. But there are moderates, too. But also, remember, Hamas, Hezoboilla, & Co. have been attacking Israel on a daily basis. Mainly through rockets, which, due to the investment by Israel in protecting its citizens, rarely gets past their iron dome or whatever it is called. There are foiled terrorist.ground attacks on a too regular basis, and October 7, which on a military planning and execution scale seemed a rag-a-muffin scale, got through. And I think atonement for that embarressment (sp?) is also a motivator for retribution and if not targetting civilians, at least even being less concerned about their plight. 

 

But, having been proven the might of the Israeli military is not 100% able to guarantee the safetly of a large number of its civilians, and I am only speculating, the prime motivation is not a relentless attack on their civilians, but a relenteless pursuit to completely dismantle Hamas military capability regardless of the Palestinian civilian cost. It would make sense that they would go to destroy the capability, as it would be impossible to kill all Hamas combatants and not have people take their place or create a new militia. But if you destroy their military assets and capability, your threat - at least fore many years - is greatly reduced. The question is whether that disregard for civilian life is justified, even when the action is legal, is a moral one and not a legal one. And I think the answer will depend on the morals of people, but also the nuances around what is happening. 

 

As I mentioned, it makes sense to destory the military capability and not even Hamas, nor the doctors in hospitals under which Hamas has built its assets (as one example) deny that these assets exists in strategically civiliant areas. I think it was more a relentless pusuit of Hamas' military assets regardless of the cost. There are a couple of reasons. 

 

First, as I have mentioned, Israel warn civilians. This is a minimum 10 minute warning but they have given much longer warnings when they were going to obliterate whole areas. It may only be a token gesture to give some semblance of not targeting citizens - that is a judgement we have to make for ourselves. Secondly, Gaza is not big and the Hamas milttary assets were spread out underground. It is pretty had to attack all their military assets without creating the amount of damage that they have done to Gazan property. Again, you could assert they were targetting civilians/their property and I think there may be some truth in it. But I think their prime motivator was to destroy Hamas military assets, and the by-product is what we see - which plays into Hamas narrative. That is my opinion, but why else would you hide behind your civilian assets?

 

Thirdly, Netanyahi has said from very early on.. they will end the war immediately on the two conditions of returning the hostages and Hamas disarm. The former is out of religious beliefs with respect to returning the dead to god in a timely manner - a belief which is shared by Muslims. The second seems pretty obvious to me, and would not entirely achieve wha I think is one of the aims - destruction of the military capability - so maybe my assumpotion is wrong. 

 

But no one in the international community tried to assert the same type of pressure on Hamas to accede and at least call Netanyahi#ss bluff. Instead, they called on a ceasfire, which really meant for Israel to stop. The logistics of disarming are nto easy, I get it, but thinking about it, the international community could have proposed a solutiuon that probably would have worked,. A UN backed peacekeeiping force overseeing the dismantlement of Hamas and guaranteeing protection of the Palestinian territory (along with the return of the bodies). Hamas would have to guarantee they would disarm and show signs of it before the peacekeeping force entered; and of course, Israel would have to back away from Gaza and accept the UN would enforce any violations from either side. 

 

Naturally, the devil is in the detail, but I am sure there could have been a compromise - on the basis Hamas was willing to stop attacking Israel.. which I am not so sure of. But because such an attempt was not made, we will never know - at least until next time. But the international community were just calling on a ceasefire which ultimately meant Israel stopping.  Maybe a call for a circuit breaker would have been more appropriate - but again, there would need to be an enforcement mechanism. 

 

So, yes, I agree, Israel has not cared about the Palesinian civilians and there was some malice, if not motivation towards Palestinian civilians. But, I agree with both Biden and Chump - a ceasfire without any conditions on Hamas would have been handing Hamas a victory for terrorism. But, I don't beleive Hamas and its predecessor, the PLO has the Palestinian civilians interests at heart - this to me looks like a religious war, not territorial. The poor Palestinian civilians are pawns in this. 

 

In terms of genocidal intent, Hamas has made clear its intent. Israel's actions outside of this war would suggest anything other and I am not convinced, although I understand why others would think, there is a  bordeline genocide in this war. 

 

Note, the International Criminal Court, which is frequently cited as wanting Netanyau on charges of genocide, want him for crimes against humanity and targeting civilians, but not genocide, which is a very different criminal charge: https://www.icc-cpi.int/defendant/netanyahu

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

7 hours ago, old man emu said:

I'm just upset that the conflict between Isreal and the Arab world has caused to deterioration of how ethnic relations in Australia have been hurt. 

To be honest, I think it is throughout the western world.