The future of the mail deliveries.

[octave]

Denmark becomes first country in world to end letter delivery       

 

 

 

 

 

[onetrack]

There goes all my Danish penfriends!!  😄 

[red750]

You just have to use email. Puts the postcard industry out of business.

[Jerry_Atrick]

 Obviously the article thows up a lot more questions than it answers. And of course. snail mail is subject to similar issues. 

 

The problems I see are that individual email servers can be configured differently, and, although I guess a lot more reliable than snail mail, issues of reliability have to be questioned. 

 

For example, the execution of legal court documents - how does one prove the receiver received it. I know summons are served by bailiffs, couriers, and the like, but lesser documents are usually done by mail. Where there is no physical recording of receipt (I can set up my own mail server which will contain my email address and switch off delivery receipts for example). 

 

Forgery of emails is stupidly simple. I can forge the email I receive or purported to send. Who did the forgery - the sender or the receiver? Unlike paper copies (which can too be forged, but a lot easier to pick up), there is no definitive record unles someone deploys a stsndard of file system protection (of which the standard's name I forget). 

 

How does this help scammers. While personal letter usage has undoubtedly dropped off the charts, all government and most financial services correspondence is done by snail mail. You will sometimes receive notification to expect the snail mail and to not treat it as junk mail. This means those scammers that phish via impersonating government  departments - for example the nations revenue service - will have a field day; anbd it will be the more vulnerable to fall prey to it. 

 

Of course, I am sure there are answers to the questions, but I don't trust bureaucrats nor corportate types to think of them until it starts happening. 

 

[octave]

In Denmark, although the government postage (letters) is being discontinued, a private company is still running a letter delivery service but as a private enterprise,  this should satisfy the need for paper-based communications.    

 

A couple of years ago, having the power of attorney over my mother, I had to sell her house interstate.  I thought I would be required to travel interstate; however, I was able to do it remotely. I signed the contract electronically. My understanding is that this is probably more secure than a signature on paper.

 

I think the headline is a little alarmist, but the article does explain that it is only the government postal (letter) service that is ending.  If there is a need or desire to send a piece of paper in an envelope, that can still be done via private companies. 

 

I think the issue is that the cost to post a letter is much greater than the cost of a stamp, and this is subsidised by the parcel service. 

 

These days, I probably only check the mail once a week, if that.

[Jerry_Atrick]

My point is, though, that the government letters - e.g. tax demands, welfare info updates, etc ig being done electronically, may open up a pandoras box of phishing based scamming and unless the government have dep-loyed lots of education and safeguards, there may be an adjustment period where someone had better have the resources to repay victims of fraud... 

 

It is only an anecdotal premonition, of course.

[octave]

I think the point is that these things (government letters, etc.) are already largely being done electronically, and therefore little demand for letter services. In Denmark, it is not a case of having to change these functions to digital because the mail is stopping, but they are stopping the mail because these things are already being done digitally.

 

Even in Australia (and I presume Britain), most of these functions are already done digitally. In the Danish situation, their post office is still delivering parcels, which is a growing and profitable area. I imagine they could also deliver documents.  I think the question is a what point does the traditional postie become unsustainable. 

 

 

[red750]

Maybe it would be better if Australia Post services were curtailed. They are pretty RS and have been for some time.

 

I sent a Christmas card and lotto ticket to my brother-in-law in Queensland. It was fully addressed with street name and number, town and postcode  We have sent cards to the same address for a number of years without problems. This year, it was returned with a big yellow sticker on it - "Post box unknown, Town name."

 

There are lots of complaints on Facebook, presents sent a week or two before Christmas still not delivered, parcels going within Victoria stuck in Perth. It's been the same for years.

[facthunter]

There's a HOLE in the Bucket, dear Lisa dear Lisa. Well, FIX it dear Henry, FIX it.  Don't throw the Baby out with the Bathwater. A  Letter Leaves no trace. Anything online is NOT  secure.  As they said in WW2, "Even the Walls have EARS". AND Loose Lips Sink Ships.   Just Because Tyres have Punctures WE are NOT likely to return to solid Rubber tyres. You STILL have to transport Objects.  MAKE it Happen. Nev

Edited 12 hours ago by facthunter

[octave]

Just to be clear, the Danish situation is not that you won't be able to send a standard letter. It is that the public postage system will no longer do it a private company will. There is also a law in Denmark that says the public post system must guarantee that either they or a private company must fulfil this service.  It comes down to whether we think one part of the postal system (parcel delivery) should subsidise a loss-making part of the business. 

 

I have been looking through some figures, and it seems the average price to process and deliver a letter is around $2.80. However, a stamp is only $1.70. The problem is that as fewer standard letters are sent, the delivery costs don't go down much; the postman has to travel down a given street whether they deliver 1 letter or 20.  In 2024, delivering standard letters cost almost half a billion dollars. The government does not subsidise this senders of parcels do. 

 

I am not necessarily against subsidies, but I do think we need to always be looking for more efficient and sustainable practices. The number of letters posted is dropping dramatically. Whereas once perhaps a posty would have a letter for perhaps 9 out of 10 houses, these days it might be 1 in 10. My point is, as this figure drops, do we pay half a billion a year to deliver to 1 in 100 houses, or do we find another way?

[onetrack]

Letter delivery services in most civilised countries were obliged to deliver letters at low cost when they started up. It was called the USO - Universal Service Obligation. This started with Britains Penny Post in 1840 and the system developed along similar lines in many other countries. When letter-writing ruled supreme and all documents were on paper, the system worked well.

 

But when the electronic messaging system started to take over from the start of this century, and letter deliveries started dropping in sizeable volumes, the costs of keeping up the USO became unsustainable. The USPS incurred horrendous debts with continuing losses over many years, and they had to up their charges and revamp their delivery system. The problem is the number of older people in particular who can't accept the demise of letters and who aren't computer literate. My 94 yr old neighbour checks his letterbox about 5 times a day, a habit he can't break.

 

He reckons computers are evil, the people with them have all the power, just like the Catholic Church did when he was a child! He said, if you didn't keep in with the priest when he was young, you didn't get a job!

So now he reckon computers have taken over from the Catholic Church, because all the information is now held secret from you, on computers! Maybe he's right! 😄 

[Marty_d]

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

Letter delivery services in most civilised countries were obliged to deliver letters at low cost when they started up. It was called the USO - Universal Service Obligation. This started with Britains Penny Post in 1840 and the system developed along similar lines in many other countries. When letter-writing ruled supreme and all documents were on paper, the system worked well.

 

But when the electronic messaging system started to take over from the start of this century, and letter deliveries started dropping in sizeable volumes, the costs of keeping up the USO became unsustainable. The USPS incurred horrendous debts with continuing losses over many years, and they had to up their charges and revamp their delivery system. The problem is the number of older people in particular who can't accept the demise of letters and who aren't computer literate. My 94 yr old neighbour checks his letterbox about 5 times a day, a habit he can't break.

 

He reckons computers are evil, the people with them have all the power, just like the Catholic Church did when he was a child! He said, if you didn't keep in with the priest when he was young, you didn't get a job!

So now he reckon computers have taken over from the Catholic Church, because all the information is now held secret from you, on computers! Maybe he's right! 😄 

[octave]

N

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

He reckons computers are evil,

We had to put my mother in care a couple of years ago. She lives in SA, and we live in Vic. We make a supreme effort to visit for a week four times a year.  Although I would not call her computer literate (she is about to turn 93), she is able (with a lot of help from us 😒)  to video call us and her friend of 70 years in the UK.  The other "inmates" at her home do not use tech and are of the opinion that they are too old, which I find very sad. As people age, it may get harder to "keep up", but it's the way to ensure happiness in old age.  

[octave]

Since Australia is a large country, postage has always been tailored to our spread-out population in terms of economics.

I just did a search for a picture of my old letter box from the property where I lived from 1990 to 2011.

 

 

My ex letter box is on the far left.  It is made from a barrel we found on our property when we bought it in 1990. It is made of plastic. This picture was apparently taken in 2019, and I am amazed that this plastic barrel has not had to be replaced. This mailbox was 4km from our property. We used to get our mail delivered 3 days a week by an old guy called Sid, who tendered for the contract and I suspect was really being ripped off. Living out there, we accepted that a daily mail delivery was not viable.  If we are going to continue letter deliveries, it is going to have to be perhaps on a weekly basis, or the prices are going to have to rise. Half a billion dollars is a lot of money for something that can generally be done a cheaper way.

 

[onetrack]

That's a classic photo of Australian rural mailboxes, Octave. You must have been living "out beyond the Black Stump"? 😄 

[octave]

6 minutes ago, onetrack said:

You must have been living "out beyond the Black Stump"? 😄 

Not really. We lived on 44 acres `17 KM from a town called Braidwood. Those mailboxes are at a village called Mongarlowe 4km from our place. As you can see from the small number of mailboxes, the population of Mongarlowe village is quite low. During the early gold rush days, the population was around 30000, I think, and there were pubs and shops etc.  Now, no miners, just hippies, artists, musicians and retired CSIRO scientists.

Our property was exactly 100km from the centre of Canberra

 

 

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

12 hours ago, octave said:

I think the point is that these things (government letters, etc.) are already largely being done electronically, and therefore little demand for letter services. In Denmark, it is not a case of having to change these functions to digital because the mail is stopping, but they are stopping the mail because these things are already being done digitally.

 

Even in Australia (and I presume Britain), most of these functions are already done digitally. In the Danish situation, their post office is still delivering parcels, which is a growing and profitable area. I imagine they could also deliver documents.  I think the question is a what point does the traditional postie become unsustainable. 

 

 

A lot of government business is done digitially (online) these days in the UK as well. Most of it does not require a letter to be delivered, but the government still posts letters - reminders if you will. Some stuff is sent out via email, too. For example the UK has a separate TV tax to pay for the BBC (called a TV licence). As I recall I opted out of paper reminders and I get thw two I have to pay for by email. I am comfortable getting them by email as I have pretty good anti-scamming defences in place. I am not sure elderly, younger, or less diligent adopt the same approach. 

 

At the moment, other government services - even reminders by snail mail don't have an opt out of receiving paper based correspondence. His Maj's Revenue and Collections (HMRC), the DVLA (government road authority), and a hist of others will send correspondence via snail mail, and you have a chouce to satisfy the givernment business online or offline. So, yes, they are done digitally. But, they offer the service "manually" as well.. which with today's technology is largely automated from teh receipt of the form, anyway - well except for handwriting like mine. 

 

The problem I have with being forced to receive email is it is a scammers paradise. Sophisticated phishing scams presented as authentic emails (and SMS) from HMRC and other government departments have untittingly cost billions in stolen money, because people click the link in the email (or SMS) that takes them to very well imitated sites where they enter their credentials and before you know it, their accounts have been siphoned or their identity sold on. Because, for these scammers, they have already automatically logged onto the real system with your details before you realise it was a fake site. 

 

Yes, letters have their downsides - I have said that in my first post. Sadly, for Australia - not getting delivered ort being deliverered very late seems a common theme. Although the Royal Mail was privatised, it still is held to high standards and is seen as a very reliable service. So, as I said, it is horses for courses. But, one of the things post is good for is reducing the occurence of this style of scamming. It is expensive to send lettets - especially since privatisation - but because the success rates of phishing is very low, the net result is likely to be a cost to the scammer - not a profit - so they don't bother. Contrast email - especially since very few people are on encrypted and secure email - once I have the digital assets to accurately impersonate the site - which is not expensive - gooing phishing is cheap - how much does it cost to send a few billion emails? Probably the cost of one postage stamp here. 

 

Yes, snail mail is expensive at point of use.. but at what cost later? I am not sure about Australia, but here the law or at least the code of conduct is that banks will reimburse money scammed from customer accounts (after proving it was a scam - and some banks are worse than others). If it is the same in Australia, don't complain about the account fees you get.. everything has to be paid for at some stage. 

 

I am not against the dropping of snail mail, but email is a horribly insecure method of communication. Using simple packet sniffers, the vast majority of emails can (and probably are) easily read by anyone. No doubt, Kali Linux has some tool that makes it even easier than masterin TCP/IP to get at your email. I think snail mail should be an option for official government business unless the user opts out after being explained the risks, as they accept (or choose to ignore) the risks. People are naturally lazy, and email is quicker and easier. For 99% of correspondence, that is probably not an issue, but for formal correspondence, it can be,. 

 

Banks here and in Europe send emails, but never provide a link, nor provide attachments. The email will tell you to use your app or log into online banking. Same with utilities and other businesses. And they are forever sending emails to remind us never to click on their links. Yet, people receive an email looking authentic saying their accoutn will be closed unless they confirm a transaction - and click here to confirm... and they click. 

 

I agree with everything that is efficient and beneficial of using email over snail mail.. but I am not convinced the security has been properly addressed and we are paying for that downstream.

[octave]

I guess there are different levels of security. As far as correspondence from the government goes, mine doesn't come to my physical mail box or my email box; it is sent to my MYGov account, which has pretty stringent security (dual authentication, etc.). This is where I receive anything to do with tax, social security, Medicare, etc. To me, this seems safer than a letter.     hanging out of my mailbox.  

 

As far as official letters go our drug-dealing neighbours (that we gave evidence against and eventually had thrown out) got numerous eviction letters delivered, they simply threw them away and claimed that the letters never arrived. When there was a registered letter, they would simply not answer the door. The deliverer would then leave a card telling them to pick up the letter from the post office. Of course, they claimed they did not get it. I would suspect that the right kind of expert could tell if an email had been sent and when and where it was opened. These house is still empty, however, the mailbox is overflowing with all sorts of official mail

22 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

People are naturally lazy, and email is quicker and easier

I don't think necessarily  "lazy"

 

We have to travel interstate regularly to do things for my mother, who is in care. Sometimes we need to go on short notice. It is comforting to know that I do not need to think about what bills may be falling due. I can continue to administer my financial empire (such as it is)  from interstate or even overseas. On top of that I also have power of attorney over my mother, who, as I say, lives interstate. It's no good her getting letters because she can no longer act on them. She does get government communications to her MyGov (which we have access to, but even the most benign letter would send her into a panic. We now sign into her email and check before she does, and we can remove the things that are unimportant and may panic her. Doing this at her mail box (at the home) could be done, and in fact, sometimes they do forward her mail to us.  A  good example is that although she is in a home, she still needs ambulance cover. Early last year, she had to be transferred to hospital.  Later, she received a large bill. She rang us in a panic, wondering why they charged her when she has insurance. My wife and I decided that we could not remember paying it. It turns out that the renewal was sent to her old address.  I am thinking we neglected to change the address. This might make us sound dumb, but taking over someone else's administration is stressful and complicated, especially when that person can't tell you what needs to be done. Email follows you even when you do change your physical address. Now most of her admin can be done online or by direct debit. It would be a nightmare to rely on letters in this case.

 

As far as I know, as long as I use common sense (which seems to have worked so far) any fraud is pretty much not my problem.

 

Just to reiterate, I am not lobbying to have Australia Post. I don't hide behind my mailbox and throw stones at the posties as they go past.   People are not being forced to use digital (as far as I can see), but rather the Post Office is under pressure BECAUSE most of us don't post regular letters. The situation in Denmark is not leaving people or the government with no letter service, but the social obligation is being handed to a private company which will have to work out a way to provide the service. I dont see why this must be done by Australia post any more than the government owning an airline. The government still subsidises airlines on unpopular routes I don't see why a similar arrangement could not apply to the mail.

 

If using email is too dangerous (which I don't generally believe) then isn't the answer to further improve online security? 

 

As I said I do everything that I can online. However, my credit card just modernised their online app (thank god, new one is great) but my preference for no paper was somehow reversed (changed back now) I received a paper monthly statement, much to my dismay. Firstly, it seems to be printed on exremely high quality paper and it went straight into the recycling. Most importantly, I check my accounts and credit card every Friday. I buy everything on my credit card and then zero it out on Friday. I need to know the balance on Friday afternoon. I don't want to wait a month plus postage time so that i can balance my accounts and check for fraud.  Fraud is more easily detected early rather than late

 

I don't have a problem with a certain amount of cross-subsidy, however, if at some time in the future the posty rides down my road, which may have  100 or so houses on it and only delivers one letter, I'm sure you would agree that that is a luxury we can't really afford

[Marty_d]

1 hour ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

A lot of government business is done digitially (online) these days in the UK as well. Most of it does not require a letter to be delivered, but the government still posts letters - reminders if you will. Some stuff is sent out via email, too. For example the UK has a separate TV tax to pay for the BBC (called a TV licence). As I recall I opted out of paper reminders and I get thw two I have to pay for by email. I am comfortable getting them by email as I have pretty good anti-scamming defences in place. I am not sure elderly, younger, or less diligent adopt the same approach. 

 

At the moment, other government services - even reminders by snail mail don't have an opt out of receiving paper based correspondence. His Maj's Revenue and Collections (HMRC), the DVLA (government road authority), and a hist of others will send correspondence via snail mail, and you have a chouce to satisfy the givernment business online or offline. So, yes, they are done digitally. But, they offer the service "manually" as well.. which with today's technology is largely automated from teh receipt of the form, anyway - well except for handwriting like mine. 

 

The problem I have with being forced to receive email is it is a scammers paradise. Sophisticated phishing scams presented as authentic emails (and SMS) from HMRC and other government departments have untittingly cost billions in stolen money, because people click the link in the email (or SMS) that takes them to very well imitated sites where they enter their credentials and before you know it, their accounts have been siphoned or their identity sold on. Because, for these scammers, they have already automatically logged onto the real system with your details before you realise it was a fake site. 

 

Yes, letters have their downsides - I have said that in my first post. Sadly, for Australia - not getting delivered ort being deliverered very late seems a common theme. Although the Royal Mail was privatised, it still is held to high standards and is seen as a very reliable service. So, as I said, it is horses for courses. But, one of the things post is good for is reducing the occurence of this style of scamming. It is expensive to send lettets - especially since privatisation - but because the success rates of phishing is very low, the net result is likely to be a cost to the scammer - not a profit - so they don't bother. Contrast email - especially since very few people are on encrypted and secure email - once I have the digital assets to accurately impersonate the site - which is not expensive - gooing phishing is cheap - how much does it cost to send a few billion emails? Probably the cost of one postage stamp here. 

 

Yes, snail mail is expensive at point of use.. but at what cost later? I am not sure about Australia, but here the law or at least the code of conduct is that banks will reimburse money scammed from customer accounts (after proving it was a scam - and some banks are worse than others). If it is the same in Australia, don't complain about the account fees you get.. everything has to be paid for at some stage. 

 

I am not against the dropping of snail mail, but email is a horribly insecure method of communication. Using simple packet sniffers, the vast majority of emails can (and probably are) easily read by anyone. No doubt, Kali Linux has some tool that makes it even easier than masterin TCP/IP to get at your email. I think snail mail should be an option for official government business unless the user opts out after being explained the risks, as they accept (or choose to ignore) the risks. People are naturally lazy, and email is quicker and easier. For 99% of correspondence, that is probably not an issue, but for formal correspondence, it can be,. 

 

Banks here and in Europe send emails, but never provide a link, nor provide attachments. The email will tell you to use your app or log into online banking. Same with utilities and other businesses. And they are forever sending emails to remind us never to click on their links. Yet, people receive an email looking authentic saying their accoutn will be closed unless they confirm a transaction - and click here to confirm... and they click. 

 

I agree with everything that is efficient and beneficial of using email over snail mail.. but I am not convinced the security has been properly addressed and we are paying for that downstream.

Your best typo yet... "untittingly" 😆

[octave]

I came for the discussion but stayed for the "untitting"

[octave]

As usual, these discussions prompt me to do some research.  Whilst there are plenty of online scams, there are also scams involving physical mail theft.  One particular scheme involves stealing a bill from a letter box and reprinting it with different bank details.

 

Physical bills can be used in ID fraud. If you are receiving physical bills, you ought to shred them before disposal

Advice from Victorian Police Delivery and Mail Security says:

 

Minimise the amount of mail delivered to your home by:

• Not having bank or utility documents sent by post. Instead, have them sent by email.

 

[pmccarthy]

It is about twenty years since I had a physical meeting with my accountant, I have forgotten what he looks like. He does tax for three companies and the family trust as well SWMBO and me. I used to scan all the documents for him, but now they all come in electronic form and I just download and forward them. We use physical mail for the stuff that needs signing.

[rgmwa]

Same here. Haven’t seen my tax accountant for about 25 years since he moved out of the city. Everything is done by email. I just send him all the details once a year and he has it done the next day.  

[onetrack]

I got some plans drawn up for a shed, using a modified shed frame I already had. I contacted the gent via email, we corresponded via email as regards what I wanted. But I had to sketch out dimensions of what I had, and what I wanted done.

Then I had to scan my sketches and email them to him. He then visited me in person to make our acquaintance, and have a general "shed engineering" discussion. He then went home and drew up the plans, and emailed them to me.

But then he delivered plans on paper with his signature and company stamp on them - which is what councils require to be supplied to them, when making application for a building permit!