Celebrating Positives (offset of the Gripes Thread)

[Litespeed]

Here in OZ, the Lams system is a winner.

 

Basically a  sensible power  to weight ratio, tat ,eams a large selection of motorcycles are approved if under 47hp and up to 210kg approx. Max capacity is 650cc.

 

This allows  a  large range of small to medium size bikes that are adequate even to tour on and certainly enough to ride for many years and not get bored or suddenly find yourself moving up to a bike that far exceeds your ability.

 

My Twin has just bought a new Truimph speed 400 for his partner for her brithday. Lovely bike and small enough for a small framed lady but big enough for fun and safe open road riding.

 

Triumph have just released a recall for the timing chain and stopped sales until the bike is retrofitted. So it will be delivered with the change next week.

 

We had to wait for a red tanked one, red is faster...

[facthunter]

Red or yellow easier to see. Not that tin top drivers actually LOOK. Nev

[onetrack]

Headlights on at all times is the go. I do it, even in my car, utes and truck. Anything that advances your visibility is a plus for crash avoidance. Even the W.A. Police advise keeping your headlights on at all times. I get thoroughly sick of people in dark grey cars driving in gloomy weather and after sunset, with no lighting.

 

I started to pull into a roundabout that runs around an unlit underpass several months ago, it was at least an hour after dark. As I started to move, a black car with not single light on it anywhere, flashed an indicator as it swapped lanes in the roundabout, just 30M to my right. Then he turned his headlights on. I don't know how he could even see where he was going prior to switching his lights on - and if that indicator hadn't flashed, I would've pulled straight into his path, as there was no indication of any kind that there was a vehicle there. Idiot!

 

Edited yesterday at 11:13 AM by onetrack

[Jerry_Atrick]

When I first got my motorcycle learners permit in Vic in the early 90's, there was a blanket 250cc limit for learners. Given the nanny state Victoria is, I was surprised to see what the current rules are with repect to LAMS. I am not entirely convinced it is applicable here for a few reasons:

 

• I am not convinced sticking a 16 year old (that is the age you can get a learner permit here) on a heavier machine even if limited to 46bhp is a great idea. Many of their bodies, although better than mine no doubt will not be used to hurtling a biogger machine in traffic, pedestrians, etc. They are basically expected to come off their bikes and handling the heavier machines to me sounds not like a great idea.
• There are plently of low top-end (bhp) bikes with ooldes of bottom end (torque). Yeah, they may not be able to get to 100mph, but they can get to speeds awfully quickly. Do they have enough experience to manage twitchy throttles and not cause mayhem.
• The UK ia 1/33rd the size of Australia with over twice the population. Outside of dual lane A roads and motorways (of which learners are not allowed on the latter), the streets and ropads are crowded, congested and claustraphobic - often with not enough room for two cars to pass when there is a parked car. In the cities, having rvrn 45bhp is not really required, but providing the power in the hands of inexperienced is a recipe for disaster. 
• Most of the fast food delivery is done on motorbikes/scooters and by perpetual learners. Imagine if they were allowed to race around the streets on much more powerful bikes...
• I agree that for touring, even for learners, it is a better idea to have a more powerful bike. But even in Aus, what is the proportion of learners that tour or go on longer rides? Certainly in the UK, it insn't many that would go for a ride greater than a couple of hours. But if you think you can't tour comportably on a 125 - and a lower powered 125 (this is 11hp as opposed to the 14.6hp), then check this playlist out:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbYb-grfUfY&list=PLgGFg0Z6OmSj6FhGj7POJUnHAoY_RbyNr

 

I think it is horses for courses. In Australia, it makes eminent sense to have more power options open to the learner rider. In the UK, I think it should be 250CC and maybe a max of 33hp or something like it, because of the different environment inexperienced riders operate in. And lets be honest, most young make riders, especially those buying bikes like my son, are going to be boy racers. 

 

But also over here, licensing is different. It is almost as complicated as flying licenses, but generally:

• From age 17, you can get an A1 license. You are fully licensed and can ride anywhere - including motorways - but are still restricted to 125cc and 14.6 max bhp. My son's Yamaha R125 will comfortably do 70mph, hand has a top speed of 80. 
• From age 19, you can get an A2 licence. Again, you are fully licensed, but restricted to a bike with a max of 46bhp. It can be a bike with a max of 92bhp with a restrcitor kit fitted that takes it down to 46bhp. 
• From age 24, you can have an A licence - full licence; no restrictions. 

For the A2 and A licence, you have to have achieved your CBT (learners) and do the test on a bike that is rated at 46bhp (or greater for the A licence) as well as meet the age requirement. There is no other experience requirement. Most schools will run a zero to hero course to get you your CBT and test ready for the A2 or A depending oin your age and then you will do the test. 

 

My son is 10 months from being able to get an A licence, but he has not indicated a desire to get a bike bigger than 92bhp. He doesn't want to move to Australia without having his A licence for some reason (Australian states recognise the A2 and I think will put him on a P plate if I recall correctly). We have no concept of probationary drivers/riders here. My understanding is the test requirements are virtually the same for the A2 and A, and if you have an A2, you have to do another test for your A to mke sure you haven't developed bad habits.

 

Some if it is clearly nuts, some if it makes sense. 

 

 

[onetrack]

It always staggers me to see the number of bike riders who either ride with their feet down, or who hang their feet out well prior to stopping, or who hang their feet out, long after taking off. 

Seems to me that a lot of bike riders have either had bugger-all training, or they had dodgy instructors.

Riding trail bikes around farms and bush soon educates you about keeping your feet on the pegs at all times, except when you're stopped. Seen more than one bike rider with a broken ankle, thanks to poor riding skills.

[Jerry_Atrick]

I have to admit.. sometimes aftert the long rides I do, to stretch the legs a bit, I let them dangle as I come to a stop. As I am of shorter stature, there is little risk of them inadvertently contacting the tarmac until I want them to. 

[Marty_d]

I kind of agree with the Australian laws.

We used to be limited to 250cc here, but then people would buy 250's that were quite capable of doing 200kph and getting there quickly.

Power to weight ratio is smarter. As to the heavier bike thing, I think it makes sense for a learner to start being able to control a heavy bike at low speed, rather than learning on something light and zippy and assuming all bikes feel like that.

9 hours ago, onetrack said:

It always staggers me to see the number of bike riders who either ride with their feet down, or who hang their feet out well prior to stopping, or who hang their feet out, long after taking off. 

Seems to me that a lot of bike riders have either had bugger-all training, or they had dodgy instructors.

Riding trail bikes around farms and bush soon educates you about keeping your feet on the pegs at all times, except when you're stopped. Seen more than one bike rider with a broken ankle, thanks to poor riding skills.

I was riding yesterday and felt the tarmac scraping the heel of my left boot in a corner. It was on the peg!

[facthunter]

Learn serious off road, or you never  really learn at ALL..  Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

10 hours ago, Marty_d said:

kind of agree with the Australian laws.

We used to be limited to 250cc here, but then people would buy 250's that were quite capable of doing 200kph and getting there quickly.

Power to weight ratio is smarter. As to the heavier bike thing, I think it makes sense for a learner to start being able to control a heavy bike at low speed, rather than learning on something light and zippy and assuming all bikes feel like that.

Probably should start another thred... I don't intirinsically disagree as things are rarely black and white and we should try and cater for individuals where possible. And I agree that a blanket CC limit is futile - the pre-2011 unrestricted Aprilia RS125 could easily hit 170kph... But so can many of the approved Vicroads LAMS models. The BMW G650GS is onme approved bike... According to Google it also has a top speed of 170mph. The difference is that in  a larger bike, the torque usually provides much better acceleration and smoolther ride, masking the feel of speed to inexperienced riders. 

 

Also, in the UK, it is nto a blanket 125cc limit. The bike cannot exceed 14.6bhp.. period. 

 

The other thing to bring into the equation is that the risk of an inexperienced rider having a crash, if insurance data is at all reliable is a lot higher than that of experienced riders. Even if the power/weight ratio is the same, the consequences on a heavier bike have the potential to be much higher than a lighter bike thanks to Newton's second (force = mass x acceleration) and 3rd law (every action has an equal and opposite reaction). Collisions will by definition be subject to greater force if the mass is greater. 

 

I would be surprised if too many learners would think bigger bike such as a G650GS, let alone a Pan European or Triumph Trophy is going to be light or zippy as a scooter.

 

In the UK, you have to take the test on the class of bike your licence level permits you to ride. Before you are permitted to ride a class of bike on the road, you have to have experience and proved you can safely handle it. Admittedly, the classes are probably too narrow..  For the driving environment in the UK, which is very different to Australia, except probably for some inner city suburbs such as Port Melbourne or Brunswick, I think a 125CC/14.6bhp bike is generally too small even for a 16 year old (let alone the 18 year old minimum in Vic - at least it was 17 years and 9 months when I did it). I think, for the UK, a 250cc of the ilk of a Honda CB250 would be adequate. In Australia, where the closed ion congested environment is by far the minority of the driving environment, LAMS seems more appropriate. 

 

I liken it to flying. Very few start ab initio training in a complex fast single (I understand Cirrus has a program). Most start in a light and simple beast, albeit rarely nippy; get familiar with the basics and progress. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Jerry_Atrick

[facthunter]

Small wheeled bikes and Scooters are NOT safe. Ride them (If you must) and find out for yourselves. NOT ONE response to my OFF road suggestion. You should know how to DROP a bike and manage slippery surfaces. Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

I take your point on the off road learning.. and I also think, for example, spins and probably basic aeros or at least upset prevention and recovery training should be taught as part of the PPL syllabus. But syllabus content is not the question.

 

I was using scooter as an example of a bike a 16 tear old can ride. A 16 year old with a CBT (learners permit) can also ride a 125CC bike, of which wheel size (except for width of cheaper ones) is comparable with bigger bikes.  Mind you, it is more the behaviour of the riders than the size of the wheels they are on that is the issue. My stepfather happily rode a C90 to and from work in Melbourne and the only times there were problems were other drivers or himself.. and those darned tram tracks. 

 

I happily rode my 11bhp CG125 around London and even on the motorways - although it was embarressing being overtaken by laden tippers on uphil sections... Although I can see there could be situations where not having enough power coiuld be dangerous, in the c. 6 months daily riding in all conditions before going onto the unrestrcited licence training and taking the test on a Kawasaki ER5 and moving straight to the VFR750, I never encountered any such situation. 

Edited 4 hours ago by Jerry_Atrick