Electric car thread

[kgwilson]

 

Edited Sunday at 01:00 AM by kgwilson

[onetrack]

It puzzles me that we want swappable batteries for our power tools, household and garden equipment, scooters, e-bikes and other equipment - but we aren't clamouring for swappable batteries (or even just simpler battery replacement) in the EV's currently being offered to us.

 

The EV full transition has yet to play out, and recycling is the area where EV's are carrying a major burden that goes directly against their "green" credentials. We have yet to develop adequate and satisfactory methods of EV vehicle and EV battery recycling.

There is only ONE fully operational EV/Lithium battery recycling facility in Australia, and its capacity is quite low, it's incapable of handling any more than a small percentage of Lithium battery recycling.

The majority of Lithium battery processing here is simply shredding, burying, or sending the batteries overseas for reprocessing - a procedure that generates more waste and unnecessary consumption of resources, and even at that, there's reluctance of other countries to take our waste.

 

Yet, the EV's and Lithium batteries are being put into production and scaled up at massively increased rates. Virtually all EV's produced in the period from 2010 to 2020 are essentially now scrap - but difficult-to-recycle scrap. We regularly try to improve our rubbish footprint, but it's not improving, it's getting worse.

 

EV tyres are difficult to recycle, they are different to normal tyres, and we already have a massive tyre rubbish problem that is not being addressed.

At least Lead-Acid batteries are recycled to the tune of around 98%-99%, and IC-engine car recycling is quite good. IC-engined cars are fully recyclable, even the lubricants and coolant are drained and recycled.

 

But EV batteries are full of toxic chemicals and plastics and minerals, and they are very costly to try and recycle, and the Lithium battery recycling effort doesn't produce any major value at this point.

No-one is properly addressing the waste factor associated with EV's, they're just continually kicking the can down the road.

 

At some stage, very soon, EV battery manufacturers MUST concentrate on the recyclability and ease of recycling EV batteries, or we stand to leave a legacy of mounds of EV and Lithium battery waste to our future generations.

As it is now, vast numbers of Lithium batteries are going to landfill and councils are being unfairly left to carry the can of dealing with this waste, the level of which they are woefully unprepared for, and unfunded to deal with it.

[octave]

50 minutes ago, onetrack said:

The EV full transition has yet to play out, and recycling is the area where EV's are carrying a major burden that goes directly against their "green" credentials.

EV batteries are being recycled (happy to post links)    One thing that makes it difficult is that there simply is not enough supply of dead batteries. yet. Remember that when a battery pack is no longer good enough for a car it has second-life uses. (,Again happy to post links)

 

Of course, we need to be working towards a circular economy.  This is in progress.  The fact that there is only 1 recycler in Australia is a result of a tiny EV market here.  In the US the 3 biggest recyclers are Li-Cycle, Redwood Materials and Cirba Solutions. In China the leading recyclers are Ganfeng Lithium, GEM and HUAYOU. In Europe there is Umicore, BSAF, Stena SNAM Altilium and SungEel

I would love to see the source of this "information"  Firstly, a 2020 EV is still under warranty.  My son's Tesla is a 2019 model and has minimal battery degradation.  So, how does it qualify as scrap?  I particularly like Redwood Industries who use residual power from the power packs that come in to be recycled to power the machinery. I think some other companies are also doing this

 

When we visit New Zealand, we notice a larger percentage of  EV, especially older ones.  We see many Nissan Leafs.

According to AI 

 

"Approximately 23,308 used Nissan Leafs, primarily the first-generation models, are on New Zealand roads as used imports. These first-generation Leafs, produced from 2010 to 2017, are a common sight in New Zealand due to their affordability as used imports. While many are still in good condition, some may have aging batteries with reduced range." 

 

50 minutes ago, onetrack said:

At some stage, very soon, EV battery manufacturers MUST concentrate on the recyclability and ease of recycling EV batteries, or we stand to leave a legacy of mounds of EV and Lithium battery waste to our future generations.

You talks s if no one in the industry or government is addressing any problems  

 

From Feb 2027, The EU will require every battery to have a Passport. This will track every EV battery in the EU for its full life cycle from mining until its end.

 

It is in the interests of EV manufacturers to ensure a more circular economy in terms of materials.  Remember when cobalt was the boogie man? These days most manufacturers use very little.  I believe LFP batteries do not contain any Cobalt. As well as that Sodium batteries are starting to be used with several cars on the market already using them.

 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 02:16 AM by octave

[facthunter]

Swappable Batteries seems intuitive but I don't think it is that simple, comparison with a drill etc is not valid as batteries get swapped all the time and being expensive are often less in number that the gadgets you have. Inbuild is lighter and the sophistication of the Monitoring can be much better, Batteries can Last a very Long time these days Swapping introduces a CARE factor too. Nev

Edited Sunday at 02:29 AM by facthunter
more content.

[old man emu]

40 minutes ago, octave said:

From Feb 2027, The EU will require every battery to have a Passport. This will track every EV battery in the EU for its full life cycle from mining until its end.

Imagine the data storage requirements for all that data. Gunna use a lot of electricity.

[octave]

2 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Imagine the data storage requirements for all that data. Gunna use a lot of electricity.

Probably no worse than digitising everyone's medical records and certainly not a deal breaker

[octave]

I am not sure how many EV battery packs end up in landfills fill however, this is and will be getting more and more absurd., A battery pack with 70% of its original capacity is still useful.  Here are just 2 examples

 

Enel inagurates 10 MWh second-life battery project at Italian airport

 

 

 

 

 

[old man emu]

I find it mind-boggling just how many bytes have been created and stored since Mankind started storing information this way.

[kgwilson]

Australia is always slow to get on board with new technologies but finally we get to a point of critical mass & things take off. No-one is going to set up an EV battery recycling plant until there is enough stock to make it viable. Virtually all old EV batteries and those from car write offs after a crash are repurposed for use in houses and businesses. A typical house battery is 10-15 kWh whereas old EV batteries can be 30 to 80 kWh and cost less. They have many years left in them even when they have degraded to 80% or less of their original capacity.

 

Already in the EU, US & China & probably many more countries lithium batteries are being recycled in recycling plants shown in the video posted by Octave. Black Mass, the name for the ground up components recycles 95% of all the lithium, cobalt, Nickel and other rare earths. So as the world electrifies much of the minerals needed to manufacture new batteries will come from recycled old ones.

[octave]

8 minutes ago, old man emu said:

I find it mind-boggling just how many bytes have been created and stored since Mankind started storing information this way.

I agree, but I also marvel at how long we have been constantly burning petrol. I wonder how many litres of petrol has been burned around the world in the time it takes to type this.  

[kgwilson]

1 minute ago, octave said:

I agree, but I also marvel at how long we have been constantly burning petrol. I wonder how many litres of petrol has been burned around the world in the time it takes to type this.  

Also it is a finite resource and can only be used once creating toxic by products like carbon monoxide and greenhouse gasses like carbon dioxide among the many pollutants from the exhaust.

[facthunter]

Crude oil has about 7%SULPHUR in it. It's also used to make Plastics, The sulphur when oxidised makes a strong acid with Moisture.  Nev

[facthunter]

With electric there will be no more fighting over Oil resources. No tankers on the road or rail. Blockades won't work and you are more free of Cartels over charging you. It's mostly ALL good. .   Nev

[octave]

So here is an extremely detailed tour of Redwood Materials, a battery recycling company.   This video is an hour long, so I guess most people won't watch it so here are a few key points.

 

This business is profitable, and it does not receive any federal subsidies.

 

Apart from making money selling materials recovered from batteries, it also makes cathodes.

 

At the 38-minute mark, it shows you another one of its income streams.

 

They have 20MW of Solar panels

They have 60MW of battery storage, which comes from 800 used EV battery packs.

As well as using this power for the factory, it is able to sell power to the neighbouring data centre at a price less than the grid and still make a profit.

 

 

 

 

[Siso]

On 27/06/2025 at 3:40 PM, facthunter said:

Nothing compared to an ICE motor and Auto trans I'd warrant .  Why do you need an inverter with a DC system?   Electric motors are close to 100% efficient.   Nev

The inverter is used for speed control. They use pulse width modulation to control the amount of current that goes into the motor. uses a square wave. I think the speed control on cordless power tool use the same system.

 

Something that would be cool  would be a towbar mount like they do for motorbikes for a 10KW generator to run while you are driving to extend your range for that 1 or 2 time a year when you need it. Could use it for blackouts or your business in other times of the year. 10kW running for 3 hours would give an extra 100 km plus?

[facthunter]

I think THAT has been done. A trailer set up would be OK too. "Have them for HIRE in suitable places?  IMHO the concept of electric with engine back up is sound. It's proven in desert racing  but in more ordinary work the engine could be relatively small.  Nev

[onetrack]

The only problem with that idea is the huge weight penalty of even a small genset. A 10Kw genset, even a petrol one, would weigh at least 75kgs, probably more like 100kgs if you took into account the weight of the towbar mount. I've got a 6Kva diesel twin Kubota portable genset (GL6000), and it weighs 250kgs.

 

Mazda have been experimenting with a "range extender" 1.0L Rotary engine mounted in the boot, to provide a major range boost, but I'm not sure if it's just been an experiment, or if it is actually planned for production.

[octave]

My son's first EV was a BMW I3 Rex (range extender). This is not really a Hybrid.  It had a built-in motor, which I believe was a BMW motorcycle motor.  When the battery got to a certain level (which I think you could decide) the motor would automatically start up and replenish the charge (with certain limitations) 

 

This concept was discontinued as battery tech improved.

 

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/one-week-2016-bmw-i3-rex

[onetrack]

One of the interesting things that continues to amaze me, is that the oil companies are still building new service stations on a wholesale basis.

 

I reckon the number of service stations in W.A. has doubled in the last 6 or 7 years. Someone obviously still believes there's a great future in fossil fuels - or maybe it's just that servos are a licence to print money, with their huge markup on fuels?

[octave]

I believe most petrol stations make most of their profit from their convenience stores.  I suspect this is why pay at the pump is still relatively rare; they need you to come inside. I often use a BP app which means I don't have to go inside to pay however there are all sorts of discounts on shop items that I could only redeem by going inside.

 

 

Edited 23 hours ago by octave

[red750]

I read a report where a US visitor to Australia, in a social media post, expressed amazement that here you fill up the car before going in to pay. Drive-offs and fuel theft became so rampant in the US, it is now normal to have to go in and prepay for your fuel.

[Siso]

I was thinking of a small generator powered by a 13 hp honda so probably on 5 KVA. while they seem heave, so are the batterys Ianthe car making the whole car heavy so 100kg would be a smaller % than it would be in an IC car. It would only be for a couple of times a year and I was talking about relatively flat going like heading to Alice Springs from Adelaide.

[facthunter]

You could greatly lighten the Average Genset IF you wanted to.  Nev

[Marty_d]

41 minutes ago, red750 said:

I read a report where a US visitor to Australia, in a social media post, expressed amazement that here you fill up the car before going in to pay. Drive-offs and fuel theft became so rampant in the US, it is now normal to have to go in and prepay for your fuel.

Plenty of CCTV around fuel pumps. If you drive off without paying they know your rego.

What made me laugh the other day is when I walked into the service station in my leathers with helmet to buy some chips for the kids, and the attendant asked if I had filled up as well - but there were no motorbikes near the pumps.

[facthunter]

Yeah. You can't trust those Bikies. Lock up your grandmothers when THEY come to town. I've Never been able to afford Leathers. Are they any good against Timber trucks? Nev