The climate change debate continues.

[pmccarthy]

No one shows the holes in the ground to get the copper, rare earths, nickel, aluminium etc to make the turbines and new distribution lines. Much of that in third world countries with poor environmental controls. For example, this is an Indonesian nickel mine. Lots of other examples if you want them.

[onetrack]

Have you counted the number of open pit mines opened up, just to get gold? A pretty yellow metal that has a small level of industrial use - but which mostly gets uselessly socked away from sight for decades, after being mined! Alluvial gold mining is one of the most destructive methods around.

[facthunter]

Heat /light comes from the Sun and would be coming here anyway. OME.

  Gold also Uses ARSENIC and there's not a lot of gold and a lot of rock which releases other things,  when crushed that are not  nice for the environment.  Bauxite is essentially CLAY to make Aluminium but both that and copper ores are electrolytically refined using Lots of electricity.  . Much more that to just MELT them. Nev

Edited 3 hours ago by facthunter

[octave]

1 hour ago, pmccarthy said:

No one shows the holes in the ground to get the copper, rare earths, nickel, aluminium etc to make the turbines and new distribution lines. Much of that in third world countries with poor environmental controls. For example, this is an Indonesian nickel mine. Lots of other examples if you want them.

 

That picture isn’t actually an argument against wind turbines — it’s an argument for better mining standards, which applies to all forms of energy. Every energy technology, including coal, oil and gas, requires huge amounts of mined materials. Fossil fuels require steel, concrete, copper, and aluminium too — plus they involve continuous extraction of fuel forever.

Wind turbines, by contrast, require one-time mining, then they produce energy for 25–30 years with no fuel burned and no ongoing extraction.

 

1. Wind uses far less total mined material over its lifetime than fossil fuels.
Coal and gas plants need constant mining and drilling for fuel. Wind needs materials once, then no more digging.

2. Minerals for renewables are increasingly coming from countries with strong environmental and labour standards.
Australia, Canada, the US and Scandinavia are ramping up production of nickel, copper and rare earths precisely to avoid reliance on poorly-regulated mines. The solution is improving supply chains, not ditching clean energy.

3. Wind turbines don’t use many “rare earths” anyway.
Only some turbine designs use them, and manufacturers are rapidly shifting to rare-earth-free generators.

4. Fossil fuel extraction also happens in countries with poor environmental controls — and much more of it.
Oil spills, coal sludge, gas flaring, and abandoned wells cause orders-of-magnitude more environmental damage than the mining required for renewables.

5. Modern wind turbine materials are highly recyclable.
Copper, steel and aluminium — which make up most of a turbine — are recycled at very high rates, reducing mining needs over time.

6. Showing a single mine doesn’t prove wind is bad; it just illustrates that mining should be cleaner.
If the standard is “this technology requires mining,” then all energy sources fail. The real comparison is:

• Mining once for decades of clean power (wind)
  vs

• Mining and drilling  continuously and decades of pollution (fossil fuels).

Edited 2 hours ago by octave

[Grumpy Old Nasho]

We suffered through a 30hr power outage Wed-Thurs, have to throw out $150 worth of food. This was just after paying my concession elec bill of $437, but which really ended up as $587.

 

Had it been paid outside of the due date, the bill would be $600 + $150 rotten food = $750

 

It's not solar or wind that determines if I get cheaper electricity, it's due dates.

 

Actually, it should be illegal to charge like that. Due dates shouldn't affect concessions.

[Marty_d]

Anything in a freezer should be ok for 30 hours without power, especially if you don't open it. 

Was it all in your fridge?

[facthunter]

A Battery would have helped that. Power companies  supply electricity. Not LOAN people Money. IF you want to Pay LATE, you are being subsidised by those who Pay on time.  Nev

[pmccarthy]

Lithium is one of 34 critical raw materials listed under the EU’s Critical Raw Materials Act (CRMA) and a key component of the EU’s ambition to shift away from fossil fuels. However, the EU still relies heavily on lithium imports particularly from Chile, which holds 42% of global reserves and produces 30% of the world’s supply. Chile’s Salar de Atacama is home to one of the world’s largest lithium mining operations. These operations affect water-scarce regions inhabited by Indigenous communities, raising serious concerns about environmental degradation and water depletion.

 

As I said, there are lots and lots of examples. Don't just show a picture of a coal mine and say this is bad.

[octave]

Interesting article about emissions in China. 

 

Here is the short version

 

A new analysis by the Centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air (CREA), published on Carbon Brief, shows that China’s greenhouse gas emissions have been flat or declining for the past 18 months, starting from March 2024. This puts China on track for a possible full-year emissions drop in 2025, which would be symbolically significant because China has previously left its peak-emissions timeline vague.

Key Findings

• Power sector: Even though electricity demand grew sharply from July–September 2025, power-sector CO₂ emissions stayed flat.

• Renewables boom: China added 240 GW of solar and 61 GW of wind in the first nine months of 2025, setting up another record-breaking renewables year. Solar electricity output grew 46% in Q3; wind grew 11%.

• Transport: Rapid EV adoption reduced oil-related transport emissions by 5%.

• Industry: Emissions fell in cement and metals by 7% and 1% respectively; steel emissions also declined.

• Chemical sector: Emissions rose 10% due to growth in plastics and chemical production, partly offsetting reductions elsewhere.

Context and Challenges

• China is still off track for its 2020–2025 carbon-intensity target (emissions per unit of GDP), meaning deeper cuts are needed.

• Analysts note China has a history of under-promising and over-delivering on climate goals.

• China’s newly submitted 2035 climate plan (NDC) commits to reducing net economy-wide greenhouse gas emissions by 7–10% from their peak.

Global Perspective

• COP30 officials praised China for driving down renewable energy costs globally.

• A new UN analysis including China’s updated pledge says current global climate commitments put the world on track for a 12% emissions reduction by 2035, up from 10% in the previous assessment.

Here is the longer version:

 

https://www.euronews.com/green/2025/11/11/have-chinas-carbon-emissions-peaked-new-analysis-shows-they-havent-risen-in-18-months

 

[octave]

4 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

As I said, there are lots and lots of examples. Don't just show a picture of a coal mine and say this is bad.

I take your point, but it’s worth recognising the difference between mining coal—which is burned once and contributes directly to emissions—and mining metals like copper, nickel and lithium, which are long-lived, recyclable and essential for clean-energy infrastructure. The environmental footprint per unit of long-term usefulness is simply not comparable.

I’m not anti-mining; in fact, through my ethical super fund, I hold shares in PLS (formerly Pilbara Minerals). Mining is unavoidable if we want electricity, transport, communications, and modern technology of any kind. The real issue is how we mine.

That’s why I think the focus should be on raising environmental standards and supporting responsible producers. Australia is actually well-positioned here: strong regulations, better labour standards, and the potential to supply much of the world’s demand for critical minerals needed in batteries, electrification, and renewable energy. If anything, responsible mining in countries like Australia reduces reliance on operations in places with poorer environmental controls.

[onetrack]

Facthunter - Arsenic is not used in gold mining, perhaps you were thinking of cyanide. Arsenic can be a by-product of gold extraction. Cyanide is safe enough when used correctly, the important thing is to keep alkalinity of the aqueous gold/cyanide solution high, at least a pH of 10 or more, by using lime thoroughly blended with the ore or tailings.

I personally used a lot of cyanide for gold mining in the 1980's, our family mining and mining contracting business carried out a lot of vat leaching for gold recovery - and the interesting part is, we re-treated huge tonnages of tailings, that had all been treated with cyanide, from the 1890's up to the 1980's.

We had no problems with any cyanide residues or handling, and the mining and leaching operations were all subject to environmental regulations.