Why is inexpensive electricity so expensive?

[nomadpete]

I note that although the recent official graphs show a slight decrease in domestic electricity consumption, I think they cannot measure most of the locally consumed rootop solar, so they miss that. In my case, my solar has logged as much power as my street meter consumption, but my bill only showed a third of that going back into the grid.

So nationally, average household power consumption has increased steadily over the years. Of course bills go up.

 

Consumer lifestyle is the real reason for the increased power bills. 

 

[onetrack]

Your power supply reliability is largely determined by the distance your power lines cover to get the power to you - and the terrain. If you choose to live in remote mountainous, or even hilly terrain, expect more blackouts than people in closer to the power generation facilities and in open, more level terrain.

 

Living in Central Perth, I have experienced so few blackouts, it's hard to recall when I last had one. Mostly any blackouts happen after a long dry Summer and dust and salt build up on powerline insulators. Then we get a very moist morning or even a tiny amount of rain, not enough to wash the insulators, and we have "flashovers", where the insulators fail to do their job and the power supply shorts out. A lot of times, flashovers also cause pole crossbar fires, and that makes things even worse.

 

We pay 32c a unit and a $1.16 a day supply charge. 45% of our bill goes to the company that operated, and maintains and manages our power network - Western Power. WP manage over $30 billion worth of assets, including 42,000 transmission towers and 758,000+ distribution poles. Our system is called the South West Interconnected System (SWIS) and it is the biggest totally isolated network in the world, and it covers the most populous areas of S.W. W.A.

 

Currently we have only 3 coal fired generators left supplying our power, and they are slated to close in 2027, 2029 and 2030. Those dates may be extended a little. Those 3 coal fired generators are the most costly power generation in W.A. and have been losing money hand over fist for years.

 

Failed refurbishment of one coal-fired power station here, cost taxpayers over $300M, to get nothing in return, except abandonment of the project, as the power station corrosion problems got bigger and bigger as the project proceeded.

So there's nothing cheap about coal-fired power here in the West. We rely on natural gas power generation (15% of W.A.'s natural gas supplies are reserved for W.A. consumers and businesses), solar, wind, and now big batteries.

By 2030, we will be running on solar, wind, big batteries, and minimal natural gas power generation. Solar power generation via household roofs in W.A. is a massive source of W.A.'s energy, and it is being harnessed via those big batteries.

 

Edited yesterday at 12:25 AM by onetrack

[facthunter]

 General statement.....36 cents gives you a Horsepower for 1.25 hours & about $300 per annum keeps you connected.  Australia is a Big Place with a lot of wide open spaces to service. Stop whingeing and get on with your life. There's a lot worse things going on out there to be concerned about. Nev

[Siso]

Solar and wind is the cheapest form of electricity but it also needs a lot of backup, extra transmission, storage and artificial inertia which makes the whole package expensive. Snowy 2 was quoted at $4B currently at $12B and they are talking $20B. I know a lot of you won't like the host(some of his views are a bit out there) but his guest has a pretty good explanation of what is really happening. it can be seen by those inside the industry as well.

 

 

[Grumpy Old Nasho]

18 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

if I remember corectly, you are in QLD (but maybe mixing it up with Willidoo). 

No, I'm in Mid-West NSW, with a supply of candles in my pantry. They get used at a rapid rate because four are used at a time for lengthy outages. Memories come flooding back how my Grandmother, living by herself, in the fifties, without electricity, just candles after sunset in the evenings. And here I am, living the same way on many occasions, in 2026 modernity. Although, now I have small portable LED lights as well as candles.

[Grumpy Old Nasho]

21 hours ago, facthunter said:

If he keeps GON it could be GAY.  but I doubt that's on the cards, but I'm not expert there, either..

Is that an insult? Are you getting me mixed up with someone else?

 

The topic is Solar/Wind power and what it's costing us.

[octave]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Old Nasho said:

No, I'm in Mid-West NSW, with a supply of candles in my pantry

 

The good thing about today is that modern technology supersedes candles, etc.  Modern LED lighting, cheap solar panels, lower cost batteries mean that even without a full-on rooftop system with battery, you can cobble together quite a good backup power system. Action is better than whinging.

[onetrack]

I've got a small industrial block in a small country town, in the Wheatbelt of W.A., about 130kms NNE of Perth. Despite having a 3 phase powerline only 50M away at a T-junction, the power has never been supplied to my block.

The worst part is - if I want mains power, I have to submit a usage plan, pay $450 application fee to Western Power, plus about another $1300 for them to investigate, doing engineering studies, and provide me with a quote for running mains power to my property.

It's highly likely that quote will come in anywhere between $10,000 to $20,000, just to run the powerline 50M to my property. Such are the joys of our W.A. mains power supply being a Govt-owned monopoly.

 

And if I reject their quote as too costly, I lose my $450 application fee. If I go ahead with the proposal, I'm then looking at a monthly supply charge plus power usage costs. Likely to be at least $30-$50 a month bare minimum.

To top it all, the area suffers from frequent blackouts - as a result of a long power line supply. Apparently some of those blackouts have lasted for up to a week.

 

Accordingly, I bought two excellent condition small diesel gensets - one single phase 6KVA, and one 3 phase 19KVA. They cost me less than $5000 in total. I use about 20L of fuel a month, probably less than the cost of the supply charge for mains power. I can run them when I want, and not run them, if I don't need the power.

I'm shortly going to invest in a solar and battery setup, utilising used solar panels and used lead acid batteries.  I reckon that setup will cost me no more than a couple of thousand dollars. That will then give me a constant power source for fridges and lights, and if I want to do some welding, grinding, tyre changing, or run my big air compressor, I fire up the gensets for the necessary period required.

 

You have a multitude of options in todays world, unlike people in the fifties. But even back then, most rural people had small Dunlite gensets and batteries - and Dunlite even built small Wind turbines, which turbines are still sought after today for their durability.

[facthunter]

You'd be Mad to go onto the grid and why would they want you as a  customer IF you don't use Much Power? Have you got enough Power to weld?  240 V is  a dangerous voltage.  415 more so.  Make sure your compressor unloads for starting or the genset might struggle.  Some of those early gensets were 36 V DC. Pretty useless today. Maybe for safety?  Nev

[Grumpy Old Nasho]

Yeah I'll have to get a generator and some solar panels, the mains power supply has proven to be unreliable and too costly.

 

There's one more thing I can try. My provider (AGL) suggests on my bill, to change my plan, so I'll research that and see what I come up with.

[old man emu]

3 hours ago, Grumpy Old Nasho said:

I'm in Mid-West NSW,

I live in the Orana Region NSW. Over the past four years I have only had one or two blackouts. They were due to thunderstorms. Otherwise, the only power outages I have had have been due to infrastructure upgrades. The power company gave ample forewarning of these outages to allow for making alternative arrangements. And the outages were usually on Sunday.

[facthunter]

Whopper downpour here in the Last Hour  Some of my workshop flooded. That will be a day of cleaning up and WD ing.  Lots of Lightning. and noise. SOME HAIL. Doggies don't like it.  Solar has disconnected. Nev

[willedoo]

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

Some of those early gensets were 36 V DC.

Nev, do you mean 32 volt? That's what all the properties ran when I was growing up. Still got the generator in the shed. I just wish I still had the Southern Cross diesel we ran it with.

[willedoo]

I can't remember if the battery bank was 4x8 volt or 5x6 volt + 1x2 volt. They were stuffed, just there for show. As soon as the genset died, the lights went out.

[old man emu]

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

Whopper downpour here in the Last Hour

I hate you with hulking hunks of horrible hate. 

 

All I'm getting is strong wind. 

 

And I haven't had a baked been for a week.

[facthunter]

32 V it is.   Nev

[onetrack]

When I first left school and started in the earthmoving business with the brother, we lived in a rented farmhouse that had been built around the early 1950's, and it had a 32V power supply.

This was a bank of 16 x 2V lead-acid Exide batteries backed up by a Southern Cross YB 4HP engine that drove a 1500W 32V generator. But the batteries were largely buggered, so the YB was run most of the time - except after bedtime.

 

But the genset and batteries were set up in a shed about 200M away from the house, so it was a chore to go out on a dark, cold wet night, to shut the engine down.

But it was even worse trying to get the YB fired up on cold Winter mornings. It wasn't unusual to have frosts on many Winter mornings in the W.A. Wheatbelt, and it certainly gave you a workout, cranking the YB into life.

 

Fortunately, the engine had a cold start assist system which was a short length of enclosed pipe screwed into the rocker cover. You unscrewed it, filled it with engine oil, poured the oil into the hole, replaced the piece of pipe, and the oil sucked into the intake increased the compression and ensured a prompt start - most times. These blokes below are mucking around endlessly with a very tired old YB, and I fail to see where they use the original cold start assist system.

 

 

[Grumpy Old Nasho]

What do you make of this? I used the automated chat feature in my provider's (AGL) website and asked if I am charged more for still having an old meter instead of a new digital meter. This is the answer I received ...

 

The type of meter you have can affect your electricity charges. If you have an old basic meter, you may receive estimated bills more frequently, which can lead to higher charges if your actual usage is lower than estimated. Digital meters provide more accurate readings and can help you avoid estimated bills, potentially leading to lower costs. However, whether you are charged a higher rate specifically due to your meter type depends on your tariff plan and usage patterns.

 

Apparently they're allowed to estimate usage and charge me accordingly. Huh! Is this North Korea we're living in?

[willedoo]

58 minutes ago, onetrack said:

This was a bank of 16 x 2V lead-acid Exide batteries backed up by a Southern Cross YB 4HP engine that drove a 1500W 32V generator.

Now that I really think about it, that would have been the battery setup we had. I remember a lot of them so they were probably all 2 volt. We had a YB as well, it was a good old motor.

[willedoo]

4 minutes ago, Grumpy Old Nasho said:

Apparently they're allowed to estimate usage and charge me accordingly. Huh! Is this North Korea we're living in?

My supplier, Origin, are doing the same thing now. Previously when they estimated it, it was based on my own average useage. Recently they changed it to an estimate based on average household use across the board which is about four times what I use. Most of the readings now are estimates, so every three monthly bill I receive a way too high bill, then submit a self read, then they reissue the correct bill. I guess it's the way it will be every three months from now on.

[willedoo]

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

This was a bank of 16 x 2V lead-acid Exide batteries backed up by a Southern Cross YB 4HP engine that drove a 1500W 32V generator.

onetrack, I must admit part of the attraction to the YB, apart from nostalgia and being a good engine, is a bit of local pride. Back in the day the foundry was one of the biggest businesses in town.

[onetrack]

The previous W.A. electricity provider, the State Electricity Commission, started this "usage estimation" technique in the 1990's in rural areas, because they deemed it too expensive to keep sending around meter readers every couple of months.

So then they'd send readers around every 6 mths to read the meters. They wouldn't trust property owners to read the meters correctly.

 

Nothing has changed with newer corporate entities that now control our energy supply. If your property is remote, or the reader can't access your meter, due to locked gates or big threatening dogs, they estimate the power bill based on previous usage levels, until they can finally access the meter to read it. You can challenge estimated meter readings.

[facthunter]

I had one meter that wore out and overcharged Immensely. The "Provider" wanted to charge what it read even though they replaced the (very  obviously faulty) Meter.  Get a good provider IF you have a choice. Nev

[onetrack]

Willie - Yes, the days of our proud local engine manufacturers such as Ronaldson Bros & Tippett, and Southern Cross are long gone, but their good products still survive in restoration groups and museums.

 

When I was a kid, my father purchased a twin cylinder Ronaldson Bros & Tippett engine, type CK, rated at 25-27-1/2HP. It came from the powerhouse in Williams, about 160kms ESE of Perth, so it had probably done tens of thousands of hours before we got it. The thing must have weighed nearly a tonne, and I have no idea how Dad got it into the shed and set up.

 

Dad bought it to drive a 4" Stalker centrifugal pump to pump water for our dairy and to do some small scale irrigation. We had an unlimited water supply at 6M deep, in deep sand, from the Gnangara Mound.

Stalker pumps were another great local (W.A.) manufacturer, they had their own foundry and produced thousands of good pumps.

 

The engine was a monster to me as a kid, and my two older brothers did some workouts cranking it up. I think they only did about 1000-1200RPM.

Here's a bloke in Victoria who got one running again. The video is crap, and the engine is running half disassembled, but it sounds just as I remember it.

The fool is running it with no water in it. I can't believe the idiocy of some of these restorers.

 

The valve train arrangement is curious, I never saw ours apart, so I didn't know about this weird arrangement, and can't figure out the design principle behind it.

 

 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by onetrack

[willedoo]

Beautiful sounding engine. I used to like listening to those hit and miss engines at the pioneer shows. Another favourite was watching the Lanz Bulldogs idling.