Is our 2 party system just a con?

[Marty_d]

2 hours ago, Brendan said:

you reckon labour are doing a good job. net zero is costing us a fortune and in the end it will be dropped because it is unviable. bowen is a clown.  

every day we here about another labour minister abusing allowancees.

labour in victoria have handed organised crime 15 billion or more using the big build as a front.

jacintas idea for more housing is to build towers all over melbourne because they will come under cmfeu control. they don't get involved in residential home builds so no promoting that.

daniel andrews left before he had to face the music but not before he amassed 90 million for himself.

there is so much more than that too.

andrews tripled workers comp policys overnight and that makes life hard for us employers .

i never used to be interested in politics at all but these criminal and corrupt politicians made me take notice. 

i actually voted for andrews when he first ran.  the other choice was napthine and his incompetent mates.

now albo the liar is breaking his ellection promises and bringing far too many immigrants with no regard to infastructure.  and labour believes criminals should all be set free with no consequences for thier actions.     one nation might have its faults but they will be better than what we have now.

 

Firstly you're conflating state and federal politics there. I'm not a Victorian so I know bugger all about your state government.

Not sure either how Labor's current immigration policy has anything to do with their election promises, I can't remember immigration being an issue at the last election.

And if you get rid of immigrants, who looks after aged care, fruit picking and all the other jobs people born here don't want? Plus, I know it's not a popular statistic for those on the far right, but immigrants are less likely to commit crimes and more entrepreneurial than people born here.

Not at all sure either why you think Labor is soft on crime.

In terms of PHONey doing a better job than the current government, I hope you're joking. They would be absolutely hopeless, a failed experiment like the Trump one in the USA.

[willedoo]

In case anyone is wondering why I clicked the informative button on Brendan's post - I saw the post and he had a string of icons there starting to resemble a poker machine. There was left to right, 1 Like, 1 Haha, 1 Winner and 1 Sad. So I thought why not give him a crack at getting the full jackpot - one of every type, the full string. So come on blokes, don't be mean, all it needs now is 1 Confused, 1 Thanks and 1 Agree. I'm not sure if anyone's ever hit the jackpot on this forum before.

[willedoo]

One Nation seems to be getting a lot of free publicity, some good some bad depending on the media outlets, but the media is certainly giving them some oxygen. It took a shark attack in Sydney to finally bump ON off the top of Google's news feed. It's been saturation level lately.

[Brendan]

1 hour ago, Marty_d said:

Firstly you're conflating state and federal politics there. I'm not a Victorian so I know bugger all about your state government.

Not sure either how Labor's current immigration policy has anything to do with their election promises, I can't remember immigration being an issue at the last election.

And if you get rid of immigrants, who looks after aged care, fruit picking and all the other jobs people born here don't want? Plus, I know it's not a popular statistic for those on the far right, but immigrants are less likely to commit crimes and more entrepreneurial than people born here.

Not at all sure either why you think Labor is soft on crime.

In terms of PHONey doing a better job than the current government, I hope you're joking. They would be absolutely hopeless, a failed experiment like the Trump one in the USA.

typical left response. no one has ever said stop immigration.  one nation want it brought back to 130,000 per year to allow infrastructure and housing to catch up. you live under a rock in tassie by the sound of it.  i never said a thing about immigration at the last election. i talk about the allan and albonese governments as one because they basically are. you think labour isn't soft on crime.  go and do some research because you have no idea.   do you think they are white australians doing all the home invasions in melbourne and the  machete attacks.

victoria has more cars stolen per day than every other state combined because of labours youth crime epidemic . daniel andrews started that when he relaxed bail laws against the police commissioners advice.  there are teenagers here that have committed violent crime and been let out on bail 80 times or more. they laugh at the police.  2 boys in the western suburbs last year were hacked to death in the street by a gang of shitheads they didn't know, one of them was still alive when they cut his arm off.

there are sudinese familys sending their kids to boarding school in africa because its safer than melbourne,  what about the sudinese that beat a bloke ton death in footsgray a few months back , a random attack in broad daylight.  what about the gang last week that hacked up a kid with machetes in one of the big shopping centers in front of everyone. 

what about the richmond drug injecting center. daniel andrews put it next to a primary school, kids walk past drug dealers working outside the facility and sometimes they walk around dead bodies.

i could go on forever but you left turkeys will just say i am full of shit because its easier than facing the truth.

[Brendan]

1 hour ago, willedoo said:

In case anyone is wondering why I clicked the informative button on Brendan's post - I saw the post and he had a string of icons there starting to resemble a poker machine. There was left to right, 1 Like, 1 Haha, 1 Winner and 1 Sad. So I thought why not give him a crack at getting the full jackpot - one of every type, the full string. So come on blokes, don't be mean, all it needs now is 1 Confused, 1 Thanks and 1 Agree. I'm not sure if anyone's ever hit the jackpot on this forum before.

best you can come up with.

[Brendan]

1 hour ago, Marty_d said:

Firstly you're conflating state and federal politics there. I'm not a Victorian so I know bugger all about your state government.

Not sure either how Labor's current immigration policy has anything to do with their election promises, I can't remember immigration being an issue at the last election.

And if you get rid of immigrants, who looks after aged care, fruit picking and all the other jobs people born here don't want? Plus, I know it's not a popular statistic for those on the far right, but immigrants are less likely to commit crimes and more entrepreneurial than people born here.

Not at all sure either why you think Labor is soft on crime.

In terms of PHONey doing a better job than the current government, I hope you're joking. They would be absolutely hopeless, a failed experiment like the Trump one in the USA.

another thing too. because they are so soft on youth crime the gangs get hired for a few hundred bucks 

by organised criminals to do their dirty work  . have a look at the age of the people that get caught  doing all the fire bombings around the place.  they get out on bail the next day.

[willedoo]

13 minutes ago, Brendan said:

best you can come up with.

Don't worry Brendan, it's not your chain I'm jerking. I was expecting a bite from someone else.

[Brendan]

12 minutes ago, willedoo said:

Don't worry Brendan, it's not your chain I'm jerking. I was expecting a bite from someone else.

all good.   i try not too look here too much, i get wound up too much. 😁.

i am not all for one nation either ,i just think they can't be worse than the 2 parties we have now.

 

 

 

[Brendan]

On 12/06/2026 at 5:15 PM, facthunter said:

Your mate Trump is what you are describing there. GON.  He's a VAIN dictator. who only listens to those who agree with him. Albanese is chosen as Leader by the Party as in all parties here. He governs with the support of his Ministers  working together as a team. You are  really raving and exaggerating.  Votes get people elected here. Not Money and Power. let's hope it stays this way. That's democracy. Now let's get a truthful Media and we will be  doing well.. Presently OUR Media is one of the Biggest Monopolies in the World.. Nev

why do you keep going on about another country's leader.  we are supposed to be talking about australia.

[Brendan]

On 09/06/2026 at 2:08 PM, facthunter said:

It's the Coalition that's in dire trouble. Now THEY are talking about amalgamating with PHON. The Greens are in trouble internally. People aren't deserting Labor. Stop reading Sky and Murdoch LIES and find out what's really happening, wille. Yes Hanson is on a roll but if she's the ANSWER just what is the Question? She will be doing WHAT Murdoch and Gina want. Newspoll is Murdoch and not that reliable, either. You don't know just what questions were askedin the survey.  Overseas opinion of the Australian Gov't's Performance  is very different from HOW is Portrayed by the MSM Here. Nev

so who  has donated 27 million to albo over the last three years. who is he beholding too. 

[onetrack]

You talk a lot of shit, mate. Your right-wing parties are so useless they couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery if they bought their own glasses. As soon as Hanson gets any kind of power, she'll be asking Gina Hancock to help run the country.

 

And Hancock is just a robber baron, shafting every Australian, while she claims we should all bow down and be grateful to her, for ripping all our minerals out of the ground so she can make more millions without lifting a finger. She gets multiple millions a year for just collecting royalties and pays no tax, because it all goes into the Hancock Family Trust.

 

Her old man built a $20M mansion, pissing in everyones face with his blatant ripoff iron ore money, while ordinary people did it tough. Then when his Filipino floozy widow looked like taking over the iron ore income stream, Gina spent multiple tens of millions on lawyers to make the Filipino floozy get just a couple of million, and nothing else. Then Gina flattened the mansion, less than 20 years after it was built. Is this the kind of people you want running Australia? 

 

Australia is the land of lack of competition, monopolies, robber barons, and corporate lobbyists who would twist Hanson around their fingers, if Hanson ever got any kind of political power - so they could get more corporate rorts, and more extreme wealth. Now we have BHP refusing to pay electricians good money for doing a prick of a job in extreme dust and heat, and a Liberal or ON Govt would back BHP to the hilt, claiming unions were being greedy. They're the ones who know what greed looks like.

Meantimes, corporate CEO's get salaries that look like Lotto wins every week, while they claim they can't pay workers any more money. Banducci, CEO of Woolworths, gets close on $10M in salary and perks, while he shafts Woolies customers and Woolworth employees. Joyce got $25M annually for shafting Qantas customers, and employees.

At least Labor goes in to bat for the battlers, the pensioners, the veterans, and those who can't get a step up the rung of the wealth ladder.

 

Labor tries to adjust the tax system so the housing bubble doesn't explode, and tries to help young people acquire an affordable home - and all the Landcruiser-driving, big boat boat-owning, multiple property owners and developers, start screeching they've been shafted, and Labor is a pack of arseholes.

No, it's the greedy property owners who keep wanting million-dollar property gains every year, while they pay only a pittance in tax, thanks to all their wangled tax deductions - such as the Landcruisers and boats - who are shafting every Australian, and getting "unjust riches" from property investment.

 

Crime has always been with us, you watch too much TV and social media crap, that blows crime out of all proportion. Were you complaining about gun crime in the 1990's when shootings were just as common as today, but only occasionally reported? When we had the worst massacre Australia has ever had, with 35 people shot down by one bloke, just for fun? What about the Hoddle St massacre, or the Fathers Day massacre in Milperra? Those people weren't recent immigrants.

 

Car thefts were massive in the 1980's and 1990's, and immobilisers were introduced to try and stop it. So car thefts went down for a while, now the car thieves have electronic devices to beat immobilisers. We have more people in jail than ever, and yet you claim crims are getting away with crimes constantly. Not much has changed - just the rabid, rapid-fire media reporting that has increased, because the media of today want stories that attract clicks and eyeballs.

 

You need to take a hard look at yourself and your one-eyed, right wing rants, or go to America and join the MAGA nutters who claim Trump has all the answers, too. And I forgot to add, Hanson thinks Trump has all the answers as well, she worships him as the answer to the worlds problems. So we'll get a Trump-style Govt, if Hanson gets any political power. Decisions on the fly, with no reference to anyone, and decisions reversed daily, so no-one knows what's going on. Hanson is a stunt-puller, and carries the same level of nastiness as Trump, abusing people, including allies, and causing disruption, left right and centre. Albo and Chalmers are doing their best with what they got handed, and a lot of what they got handed, came from Liberal Govt decisions.

 

 

Edited 10 hours ago by onetrack

[Brendan]

5 hours ago, onetrack said:

You talk a lot of shit, mate. Your right-wing parties are so useless they couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery if they bought their own glasses. As soon as Hanson gets any kind of power, she'll be asking Gina Hancock to help run the country.

 

And Hancock is just a robber baron, shafting every Australian, while she claims we should all bow down and be grateful to her, for ripping all our minerals out of the ground so she can make more millions without lifting a finger. She gets multiple millions a year for just collecting royalties and pays no tax, because it all goes into the Hancock Family Trust.

 

Her old man built a $20M mansion, pissing in everyones face with his blatant ripoff iron ore money, while ordinary people did it tough. Then when his Filipino floozy widow looked like taking over the iron ore income stream, Gina spent multiple tens of millions on lawyers to make the Filipino floozy get just a couple of million, and nothing else. Then Gina flattened the mansion, less than 20 years after it was built. Is this the kind of people you want running Australia? 

 

Australia is the land of lack of competition, monopolies, robber barons, and corporate lobbyists who would twist Hanson around their fingers, if Hanson ever got any kind of political power - so they could get more corporate rorts, and more extreme wealth. Now we have BHP refusing to pay electricians good money for doing a prick of a job in extreme dust and heat, and a Liberal or ON Govt would back BHP to the hilt, claiming unions were being greedy. They're the ones who know what greed looks like.

Meantimes, corporate CEO's get salaries that look like Lotto wins every week, while they claim they can't pay workers any more money. Banducci, CEO of Woolworths, gets close on $10M in salary and perks, while he shafts Woolies customers and Woolworth employees. Joyce got $25M annually for shafting Qantas customers, and employees.

At least Labor goes in to bat for the battlers, the pensioners, the veterans, and those who can't get a step up the rung of the wealth ladder.

 

Labor tries to adjust the tax system so the housing bubble doesn't explode, and tries to help young people acquire an affordable home - and all the Landcruiser-driving, big boat boat-owning, multiple property owners and developers, start screeching they've been shafted, and Labor is a pack of arseholes.

No, it's the greedy property owners who keep wanting million-dollar property gains every year, while they pay only a pittance in tax, thanks to all their wangled tax deductions - such as the Landcruisers and boats - who are shafting every Australian, and getting "unjust riches" from property investment.

 

Crime has always been with us, you watch too much TV and social media crap, that blows crime out of all proportion. Were you complaining about gun crime in the 1990's when shootings were just as common as today, but only occasionally reported? When we had the worst massacre Australia has ever had, with 35 people shot down by one bloke, just for fun? What about the Hoddle St massacre, or the Fathers Day massacre in Milperra? Those people weren't recent immigrants.

 

Car thefts were massive in the 1980's and 1990's, and immobilisers were introduced to try and stop it. So car thefts went down for a while, now the car thieves have electronic devices to beat immobilisers. We have more people in jail than ever, and yet you claim crims are getting away with crimes constantly. Not much has changed - just the rabid, rapid-fire media reporting that has increased, because the media of today want stories that attract clicks and eyeballs.

 

You need to take a hard look at yourself and your one-eyed, right wing rants, or go to America and join the MAGA nutters who claim Trump has all the answers, too. And I forgot to add, Hanson thinks Trump has all the answers as well, she worships him as the answer to the worlds problems. So we'll get a Trump-style Govt, if Hanson gets any political power. Decisions on the fly, with no reference to anyone, and decisions reversed daily, so no-one knows what's going on. Hanson is a stunt-puller, and carries the same level of nastiness as Trump, abusing people, including allies, and causing disruption, left right and centre. Albo and Chalmers are doing their best with what they got handed, and a lot of what they got handed, came from Liberal Govt decisions.

 

 

 

crime is the worst it has ever been and it started with daniel andrews.

you have no clue at all. i see this shit every day working around melbourne. cars flying past on the freeway full of teenagers.  burnt wrecks every where from the thefts the night before.

albo or ellroy which is his real name and snake chalmer along with bowen are driving this place into the ground.  stop rabbiting on about overseas  governments for comparison. 

you are shit scared to even get out of your car in northam yet you know all about crime in melbourne.

i work with asians, turks, sudanese, italians and others and we all get along great. i am not a rascist i just want this country fixed.    take a hard look at yourself cut and paste cowboy.

Edited 4 hours ago by Brendan

[Brendan]

Victoria's crime rate has soared to the highest levels on record, driven by a spike in thefts across the state.

The latest figures from the Crime Statistics Agency (CSA) show continued growth in both criminal incidents and recorded offences in Victoria since the COVID-19 lockdowns.

Victoria Police Deputy Commissioner, Regional Operations, Bob Hill, said the figures were unacceptable.

"As a society, we simply cannot allow the level of crime we are seeing to become normalised and accepted," he said.

"Every Victorian deserves to feel safe in their home, within the community and on the roads.

[Brendan]

New stats reveal highest number of criminal incidents in Victoria since records began

• Topic:Crime

Thu 25 Sep 2025

[Brendan]

this crime wave was started by labour and now they are trying to do something about it because there is an election coming up.

i just hope the witch and her cohort are thrown to the curb in november.

all onetracks dribble about how great labour are he never mentions the 15 billion

they gave to organised crime.  police, nurses and firefighters have been dragged through the ringer fighting for a pay rise then we find out allan and albo have been handing over billions to crims. imagine all the good they could have done with that money.   i guess one eyed communist supporters will never see any opinion but their own.

Edited 4 hours ago by Brendan

[octave]

36 minutes ago, Brendan said:

his crime wave was started by labour

By labour, I guess you mean Labor.   

 

Here is a breakdown of the levels of crime per state.

 

Here is how the states and territories generally break down by safety and crime rates:

 

Here is how the states and territories generally break down by safety and crime rates:

• Northern Territory: Highest per-capita crime rate nationally. Cities like Alice Springs and Darwin often top national per-capita crime lists. [1, 2, 3]
• Queensland: Has the highest crime rate among the major eastern states, with surging rates of assault, break-ins, and youth-related property crime. [1, 2, 3]
• Victoria: Frequently ranks highly on a per-capita basis, with recent statistics indicating record highs in criminal incidents—particularly in the Melbourne CBD and specific regional centres. [1, 2]
• New South Wales: Despite the high total volume of reported crimes (driven by its large population), its per-capita crime rates are relatively low compared to the rest of the country. [1, 2]
• Australian Capital Territory: Consistently considered one of the safest jurisdictions in Australia with significantly lower crime rates. [1, 2, 3]

 

If you are making a connection between Labor governments and crime, you have to account for the fact that NSW has a low per capita crime rate. Is this an achievement of the NSW Labor government?  The ACT has been governed by Labor since 2001 and has significantly lower crime.    I am not spruiking for Labor here, I am not a party political person.

 

In one of your posts you link to an ABC News site, which is lists all the crime stories.   These are Australia-wide, not just Victorian.  If you keep doomscrolling, of course, you will become anxious.  I live in Victoria, and of course, I would like crime to be as low as possible; however, you have to keep things in perspective. 

 

 

[red750]

To break this battle for a moment, Brendan - get your shift key fixed. No capitals is nearly as bad as Nev's too many capitals.

[Marty_d]

Just now, Brendan said:

you live under a rock in tassie by the sound of it. 

Well I get my news from reliable sources and don't doomscroll right wing social media, is that what you mean?

 

Just now, Brendan said:

i never said a thing about immigration at the last election.

"now albo the liar is breaking his ellection promises and bringing far too many immigrants with no regard to infastructure."

 

Just now, Brendan said:

i talk about the allan and albonese governments as one because they basically are.

Wrong.  Absolutely dead wrong.  State parties may share the name but are absolutely different beasts.

 

Just now, Brendan said:

 you think labour isn't soft on crime.  go and do some research because you have no idea. 

 

You made the statement that Labor is soft on crime, therefore you should provide proof of this.  Bearing in mind the judiciary is not an arm of the government of the day, where are your statistics that show that ANY change of law that federal Labor has made is "softer on crime" than the previous LNP government?  (Opinion from Sky News does not count as proof.)

 

Just now, Brendan said:

i could go on forever but you left turkeys will just say i am full of shit because its easier than facing the truth.

While very tempted, I will restrain from agreeing with you and just point out that your post does not contain truth.  It's mainly a tirade against a state government based on sensationalist reporting of some horrible crimes, somehow conflated with the federal government which is what we're talking about here.

No one is saying that Victoria doesn't have problems with crime, and if you want to split it up by ethnicity that's up to you - but if I can give you some local examples, a few years ago a Hobart man killed his wife, chopped her into pieces and flushed her down the toilet.  His ethnicity wasn't mentioned, because he was white.  Another white man killed 35 people down the road at Port Arthur.  And a bloke I worked with was bashed into a coma by a youth gang of 15 year olds - all white.

If I were to do what you're doing I would be jumping up and down saying that Tassie has a real crime problem with white offenders.

 

9 hours ago, Brendan said:

why do you keep going on about another country's leader.  we are supposed to be talking about australia.

Because if we ignore similar patterns overseas we are doomed to repeat them.  Only a complete moron couldn't see the similarities between Trump and Hanson - they're both populists, rabble-rousers, seeking to amplify disaffected people's innermost fears and prejudices.  They're both funded by billionaires who know that they will get a great return on their investment at the cost of everyone else in the country.  They both have no trust in experts and want to control everything and make unilateral decisions without considering the consequences.  And by the looks of PHONey's business and accounting practices they're both dodgy as hell in that regard.

[facthunter]

I'm getting a bit reluctant to approve anyone's post because it will Make them a Leftist turkey.  Also IF someone approves My Posts the same inference will apply to them.  Does having a social conscience Make you a lefty? In Trumpland that is equal to being a child molester or worse.. Get some facts into your ravings. Brendan has just  experienced a severe Bout of Verbal Diarrhoea. I hope he feels better now. Nev

[Brendan]

3 hours ago, octave said:

By labour, I guess you mean Labor.   

 

Here is a breakdown of the levels of crime per state.

 

Here is how the states and territories generally break down by safety and crime rates:

 

Here is how the states and territories generally break down by safety and crime rates:

• Northern Territory: Highest per-capita crime rate nationally. Cities like Alice Springs and Darwin often top national per-capita crime lists. [1, 2, 3]
• Queensland: Has the highest crime rate among the major eastern states, with surging rates of assault, break-ins, and youth-related property crime. [1, 2, 3]
• Victoria: Frequently ranks highly on a per-capita basis, with recent statistics indicating record highs in criminal incidents—particularly in the Melbourne CBD and specific regional centres. [1, 2]
• New South Wales: Despite the high total volume of reported crimes (driven by its large population), its per-capita crime rates are relatively low compared to the rest of the country. [1, 2]
• Australian Capital Territory: Consistently considered one of the safest jurisdictions in Australia with significantly lower crime rates. [1, 2, 3]

 

If you are making a connection between Labor governments and crime, you have to account for the fact that NSW has a low per capita crime rate. Is this an achievement of the NSW Labor government?  The ACT has been governed by Labor since 2001 and has significantly lower crime.    I am not spruiking for Labor here, I am not a party political person.

 

In one of your posts you link to an ABC News site, which is lists all the crime stories.   These are Australia-wide, not just Victorian.  If you keep doomscrolling, of course, you will become anxious.  I live in Victoria, and of course, I would like crime to be as low as possible; however, you have to keep things in perspective. 

 

 

i agree about doomscrolling. 

that was just a quick search to see whats out there.

its pretty common knowledge the youth crime wave started after andrews relaxed bail laws against police advice.    crime is by far the worst it has ever been.

 

[Brendan]

34 minutes ago, facthunter said:

I'm getting a bit reluctant to approve anyone's post because it will Make them a Leftist turkey.  Also IF someone approves My Posts the same inference will apply to them.  Does having a social conscience Make you a lefty? In Trumpland that is equal to being a child molester or worse.. Get some facts into your ravings. Brendan has just  experienced a severe Bout of Verbal Diarrhoea. I hope he feels better now. Nev

nev . you are full of shit yourself. never anything decent to say except put down anyone who doesn't agree with you. the same on any topic you get involved with. i have seen first hand crime and i know people who's lives have been wrecked by home invasions. you don't care but if the machete wielders

come banging on your door at 2 in the morning you might change your mind. 

why do you never mention all the machete attacks or the 15 billion handout to crims. not a word because it does not suit your agenda.

[Brendan]

1 hour ago, Marty_d said:

Well I get my news from reliable sources and don't doomscroll right wing social media, is that what you mean?

 

"now albo the liar is breaking his ellection promises and bringing far too many immigrants with no regard to infastructure."

 

Wrong.  Absolutely dead wrong.  State parties may share the name but are absolutely different beasts.

 

 

You made the statement that Labor is soft on crime, therefore you should provide proof of this.  Bearing in mind the judiciary is not an arm of the government of the day, where are your statistics that show that ANY change of law that federal Labor has made is "softer on crime" than the previous LNP government?  (Opinion from Sky News does not count as proof.)

 

While very tempted, I will restrain from agreeing with you and just point out that your post does not contain truth.  It's mainly a tirade against a state government based on sensationalist reporting of some horrible crimes, somehow conflated with the federal government which is what we're talking about here.

No one is saying that Victoria doesn't have problems with crime, and if you want to split it up by ethnicity that's up to you - but if I can give you some local examples, a few years ago a Hobart man killed his wife, chopped her into pieces and flushed her down the toilet.  His ethnicity wasn't mentioned, because he was white.  Another white man killed 35 people down the road at Port Arthur.  And a bloke I worked with was bashed into a coma by a youth gang of 15 year olds - all white.

If I were to do what you're doing I would be jumping up and down saying that Tassie has a real crime problem with white offenders.

 

Because if we ignore similar patterns overseas we are doomed to repeat them.  Only a complete moron couldn't see the similarities between Trump and Hanson - they're both populists, rabble-rousers, seeking to amplify disaffected people's innermost fears and prejudices.  They're both funded by billionaires who know that they will get a great return on their investment at the cost of everyone else in the country.  They both have no trust in experts and want to control everything and make unilateral decisions without considering the consequences.  And by the looks of PHONey's business and accounting practices they're both dodgy as hell in that regard.

so you haven't seen what is going on in the uk and ireland.

and i said youth crime gangs not ethnicity, typical left trying to bring that card out.

[Brendan]

i am signing out again.  this is just a forum where you  bully anyone with a different opinion to you.

Edited just now by Brendan