Fuel type for new car

[Admin]

I am considering buying a new ford territory and need advice on the best fuel system for me.

 

Firstly i am driving a ford au fairmont wagon and for the last 17 years it has had lpg duel fuel. It has done 170k in those 17 years and the dual fuel option has been great.

 

Possibly for the next 2 years i will be driving the territory doing a round trip of Melb – Canberra – Melb every 2nd weekend but with very little driving around Canberra in between. After 2 years it may average 10k a year as a normal family car.

 

The Territory I am looking at getting is the RWD only Titanium which already has ample boot space if I went for LPG dual fuel with a donut tank and the spare wheel in the boot. Diesel naturally has more torque bit dirtier, servicing cost, smaller engine and higher fuel per litre cost. But the difference in cost between a new diesel Territory versus a petrol version and dual fuel addon would possibly be around $1500 more for the LPG.

 

I would expect to keep the car up to 15 years like my au wagon now 17 years old.

 

What type of fuel would you go for?

 

 

[facthunter]

Not easy decision, Ian with the diesel but fueling them can be messy for the ladies if they are going out somewhere . The "modern" gas conversions are very high tech and you don't lose any power or MPG at all on gas. I think I would go for a second hand rear ( 2 wheel ) drive, and have it gas fitted by a good mob.. You are still dual fuel but the gas isn't a large tank and the wheel has to go somewhere else. Pleasant to drive and easy to get in and out of. Ring if you want to.. I have a good mate in the game. Ford service (Franchised) who may be able to pick a good S/H or you can try ORIX..Nev .

 

 

[Sloper]

See if you can get gas injected, not the flow through type as they produce more power.

 

regards Bruce

 

 

[SDQDI]

Well personally I like the diesel option. It does have a few cons but for me the pros well outweigh them. Keeping it for 15 years or so will mean resale value will be of little consequence but generally diesels do hold their value a little better. I'm not sure of the fuel use difference between dual fuel and diesel but diesel will be in front of a petrol option especially if you will ever use it for towing.

 

Having said that if you will end up only doing 10,000 Ks a year the difference in fuel won't be a big killer and if you aren't going to tow anything then you might only be looking at 2 or 3 hundred dollars a year difference.

 

Maybe see if you could find one of each to test drive, preferably up and down a few hills, and see which you like the most:juggle:

 

 

[dazza 38]

My folks have a dual fuel Nissan Patrol. With Gas getting more expensive than it used to be and the engine using more gas per kilometre than petrol. I don't think it is worth it. I would go for diesel.

 

 

[facthunter]

Its about 40% the price of petrol here. In some areas it may be so dear it isn't worth it. The direct engine injection doesn't use more fuel, or it's insignificant. My eldest has a crewman Cross eight 4 wd which has about 450,000 kms on it. Original untouched motor so far. Runs cheap. Nev

 

 

[Admin]

The au gas conversion was one of the earlier types which resulted in less power and more lpg used than petrol but when we got a BA series 2 it was much better and that was 8 years ago. The current dual fuel systems i believe are almost 1 to 1 with petrol in terms of power and usage.

 

You are right Nev, a very hard decision and one i am having trouble trying to decide on.

 

Although irrelavant to the decision, the one thing i do like about the lpg is i have never had to worry about when to fill up...i just drive the car on lpg till it is empty and then say perhaps i need to look for the cheapest fuel soon. This also enabled a good mix for the engine with some petrol use for the seals etc running say 90/10 between lpg and petrol

 

 

[facthunter]

The four valve head seems to operate fine on gas. If something goes wrong It's not the end of the world cost wise. You will have to replace the rear end rubber bushes every 100,000 kms. Second hand will save a fair bit but get a good one. The later gas system isn't cheap to fit or service, but it's good. You can hear the injectors but not anything like as much as a diesel.. You can calculate what mileage it will take to offset the cost. Once you have high mileage on these things they aren't worth much. If you go diesel get it new. (Warrantee) They do drive nicely . A turbo diesel does pull well. and their V6 is state of the art, but look at VW. They were too. (supposedly) Nev

 

 

[old man emu]

Re diesel being unpleasant to handle. I quite agree with that. I hate the smell of it on my hands, so I always carry a pair of leather rigger's gloves in my work bag. I put them on when I refuel, and my hands don't stink afterwards. The gloves could be stored somewhere in your vehicle. Perhaps the 'glovebox' ...?

 

OME

 

 

[jetjr]

Diesel works if you run big km trips

 

New models mostly feature DPF and some include adblue injection

 

These emmission control methods raise costs of ownership on modern diesels

 

Late model territory is a pretty good vehicle, earlier had some issues with front end and horrible fuel use. Diesel i know of has happy owners.

 

Terrotory hasnt excelled in sales stakes and as a result sees discounting. Good value for purchase but pretty sure this will hurt values but your looking at long ownership.

 

Some issue re tyre sizing on them havig few options and expensive too.

 

Running several diesels I can say the last few years have seen petrols cheper fuel wise with diesel price well above ULP

 

Personally i strongly push AWD models , safety benefits are worh the costs

 

LPG has reducing excise program so wont be cheap for much longer

 

 

[dazza 38]

Diesel prices go purely by supply and demand. When the mining boom was on here is QLD we paid 15 cents plus per litre more for diesel than unleaded. Mines buy and burn a lot of diesel.

 

Now that the boom is over, we pay nearly 20 cents per litre less than unleaded.

 

 

[Kiwi303]

Running long distance I would get the diesel, round town the LPG.

 

 

[cooperplace]

Not easy decision, Ian with the diesel but fueling them can be messy for the ladies if they are going out somewhere . The "modern" gas conversions are very high tech and you don't lose any power or MPG at all on gas. I think I would go for a second hand rear ( 2 wheel ) drive, and have it gas fitted by a good mob.. You are still dual fuel but the gas isn't a large tank and the wheel has to go somewhere else. Pleasant to drive and easy to get in and out of. Ring if you want to.. I have a good mate in the game. Ford service (Franchised) who may be able to pick a good S/H or you can try ORIX..Nev .

I'm sceptical about claims that any LPG system can deliver the same fuel economy as petrol. I've owned several LPG cars (with mixer systems, inc. a AUIII Falcon Futura wagon, great car) and they drink the stuff. Yes I know the LPG injection systems are better but you can't get away from the fact that the energy density of LPG in Mj/L is 15-20% less than that of petrol. You can't get blood out of a stone.

 

 

[hihosland]

200,000km coming up on a 2004 Territory with an LPG injection system and I cannot recognise any difference in performance between the two fuels.

 

Price differential for the fuels is very attractive in Melbourne, less so in regional Victoria and in the far north the difference is trivial and supply very scattered.

 

Where you are going to do the most mileage will make a big difference in the economy or otherwise of LPG.

 

and

 

that spare wheel takes up a large amount of the boot space,

 

 

[cooperplace]

yes that's true, LPG cheap in cities but pricey in regional areas.

 

 

[Ferris]

G'day Ian, I have two diesel Territories. One is my work car, the other for my wife/family. Each does around 50,000 km per year of country running, so a very different use to what you are planning, and I've now had 6 Territories. All except one has been excellent. The dud caused no end of trouble with fuel injection and gear box problems. Thank goodness it was still under warranty.

 

To cut to the chase, all modern diesels are very high tech and very costly to repair when they fail. If you're planning on keeping the car for the best part of two decades, expect an injector/fuel pump repair at some stage, and a bill heading towards an aircraft engine repair.

 

 

[facthunter]

This can happen with any single rail diesel and good fuel and correct filters are absolutely necessary. I did suggest IF you go diesel you get a new one, and look after it and it's in warrantee for a while and you don't know what a previous owner has done with it. I try to spend as little on a car as I can but I look after them as it's part of spending less in the long run. Nev

 

 

[Admin]

In my dual fuel BA series 2 fairmont ghia i had to have new injectors put in at around 90k on the clock but i have never had to touch the au. One stupid thing is the au always used oil on a big trip like 2 litres of oil doing a melb to brisbane. It has been like it ever since the lpg was done, all 170ks untill a couple of months ago when i had it serviced. The guy doing the service said that he replaced some metal washer or something with a plastic one so it shouldn't use any oil now. He was correct, it hasn't used a drop of oil doing canberra to melb to canberra 5 times since. The service people i use in canberra who also do lpg conversions really know what they were doing so lesson learnt is that not all lpg conversion people are the same and i would hate to think how much i have paid out in oil over those 170k

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

I own a 09 Hyundai I Load 2.4 turbo diesel. Love it. Heaps power gives V8s good run up the big hills on the M1 tows my 23ft caravan ok but you know it's there. Getting around 900ks to the 75lt tank hiway mode. Cruises easy 110 but prefers to run at 130 plus. Drives like a car. If i buy petrol again it will be as a Sunday drive performance car (2016 Mustang maybe), refueling diesel is a messing game but rag and gloves stashed under bonnet. A few jumpers on the DZ own these now and have driven a petrol version and it is disappointing. Needs anti skid driving in the wet can be a bit oopsy. Diesel is cheapest it has been for long time around 1.26lt in the Hunter.

 

 

[Ferris]

Ian, be aware that injectors and fuel pumps in diesels are very different to a petrol car, and cost a whole heap more. Some years ago I owned a diesel Patrol which needed a new fuel pump, injectors and injector rails. The bill was just over $9000, and I know of plenty of Hylux's that have cost their owners upwards of $5000.

 

The diesel Territory has been an absolutely fantastic vehicle for me; performs well, tows well and is economical, but I wouldn't own one outside of the warranty period.

 

 

[Admin]

t I wouldn't own one outside of the warranty period.

Is that because of the diesel?

 

In my mind, the high sales of diesel cars could lead to the fuel companies capitalising on this in years to come and move the price of diesel up for more profit...tomorrow diesel will be the petrol of today.

 

Perhaps LPG may be the go besides the good old trusty 4.1 litre ford engine is unstoppable. The service guy in Canberra I go to was telling me that one of his customers came in to get his ford serviced and complained that his was starting to use a bit of oil, went from full to add in the life of a service and it was an LPG converted one...the car had just clocked over 1 million ks...mind you it was a taxi though which are always running hot but still, the 4.1 is one hell of an engine.

 

The only problem I see with LPG is in 10 years time more and more service stations could begin to drop it, not all as it will still be needed but i may have to search for one to fill up instead of just going to the local.

 

Overall i think the cost of LPG per klm would be cheaper than diesel so the payback period would be sooner i.e. $1,500 extra overall would be around 30,000 to 40,000 klms and with doing canberra - melb - canberra every 2 weeks that would be 3 years and my work contract is for another 6 months but with 2 x 1yr extensions. Real crystal ball stuff though

 

 

[Admin]

Can someone check my figures?

 

NOTE, everyone may have their own opinion on the figures i have used but it is a starting point

 

Fuel cost as of today at the local petrol stations in melb and canberra

 

Petrol $1.40/ $1.31

 

LPG $0.50/$0.64

 

Diesel $1.20/$1.31

 

Travelling canberra - melb - canberra is 1,300 kms per fortnight plus running around so say 750klms per week = 39,000klms per year

 

Car stated average litres per 100klms for petrol and diesel is 10.5/8.2 - driving style would change this but unknown

 

Conversion cost of LPG is $4,500 and diesel option is extra $3,250 - could negotiate on tese prices

 

Litres used petrol or LPG is 4,095 and diesel is 3,198 per year at 39,000klms

 

Fuel cost per year of melbourne and canberra is

 

Petrol $5,733/$5,364

 

LPG $2,047/2,621

 

Diesel $3,838/$4,189

 

This would give a payback period of LPG over diesel of only 1 year and a saving of around $1,500 on fuel with LPG over diesel for each year after that at 39,000klms per year or $375 per year at 10,000klms plus cheaper servicing cost

 

Seems to me if the above figures are even somewhat correct, going LPG is a no brainer in the financial sense

 

 

[facthunter]

And you don't necessarily need a new petrol/gas car. You may have a service call on the gas, but not likely to be much.. You will run on petrol part of the time inevitably as you can't leave it in the tank forever. The petrol engine runs on 91 octane, so it's not fussy. Nev

 

 

[skyfox1]

I prefer diesel mine is dual fuel great economy lately diesel has been cheaper than unleaded here ,always had diesels bit biases .

 

 

[Ferris]

Is that because of the diesel?

In my mind, the high sales of diesel cars could lead to the fuel companies capitalising on this in years to come and move the price of diesel up for more profit...tomorrow diesel will be the petrol of today.

 

Perhaps LPG may be the go besides the good old trusty 4.1 litre ford engine is unstoppable. The service guy in Canberra I go to was telling me that one of his customers came in to get his ford serviced and complained that his was starting to use a bit of oil, went from full to add in the life of a service and it was an LPG converted one...the car had just clocked over 1 million ks...mind you it was a taxi though which are always running hot but still, the 4.1 is one hell of an engine.

 

The only problem I see with LPG is in 10 years time more and more service stations could begin to drop it, not all as it will still be needed but i may have to search for one to fill up instead of just going to the local.

 

Overall i think the cost of LPG per klm would be cheaper than diesel so the payback period would be sooner i.e. $1,500 extra overall would be around 30,000 to 40,000 klms and with doing canberra - melb - canberra every 2 weeks that would be 3 years and my work contract is for another 6 months but with 2 x 1yr extensions. Real crystal ball stuff though

Yes. The Territory is a great car, but like all modern diesels, expensive to repair. Incidentally our overall fuel consumption is 7.6 l per 100 km. Mostly highway running of course.