octave

I am not sure how many EV battery packs end up in landfills fill however, this is and will be getting more and more absurd., A battery pack with 70% of its original capacity is still useful. Here are just 2 examples Enel inagurates 10 MWh second-life battery project at Italian airport

Probably no worse than digitising everyone's medical records and certainly not a deal breaker

EV batteries are being recycled (happy to post links) One thing that makes it difficult is that there simply is not enough supply of dead batteries. yet. Remember that when a battery pack is no longer good enough for a car it has second-life uses. (,Again happy to post links) Of course, we need to be working towards a circular economy. This is in progress. The fact that there is only 1 recycler in Australia is a result of a tiny EV market here. In the US the 3 biggest recyclers are Li-Cycle, Redwood Materials and Cirba Solutions. In China the leading recyclers are Ganfeng Lithium, GEM and HUAYOU. In Europe there is Umicore, BSAF, Stena SNAM Altilium and SungEel I would love to see the source of this "information" Firstly, a 2020 EV is still under warranty. My son's Tesla is a 2019 model and has minimal battery degradation. So, how does it qualify as scrap? I particularly like Redwood Industries who use residual power from the power packs that come in to be recycled to power the machinery. I think some other companies are also doing this When we visit New Zealand, we notice a larger percentage of EV, especially older ones. We see many Nissan Leafs. According to AI "Approximately 23,308 used Nissan Leafs, primarily the first-generation models, are on New Zealand roads as used imports. These first-generation Leafs, produced from 2010 to 2017, are a common sight in New Zealand due to their affordability as used imports. While many are still in good condition, some may have aging batteries with reduced range." You talks s if no one in the industry or government is addressing any problems From Feb 2027, The EU will require every battery to have a Passport. This will track every EV battery in the EU for its full life cycle from mining until its end. It is in the interests of EV manufacturers to ensure a more circular economy in terms of materials. Remember when cobalt was the boogie man? These days most manufacturers use very little. I believe LFP batteries do not contain any Cobalt. As well as that Sodium batteries are starting to be used with several cars on the market already using them.

Here is an extremely detailed analysis of swap vs charge. It is quite long and nerdy, but worth watching. For those who are interested but don't want to invest 34 minutes, you can jump to the 29:52 point for s succinct summary.

Just 2 further points: How many swap stations would be required to replace the Shenzhen charging hub (637 chargers and a throughput of 3300 cars per day)? If a swapping facility needs more than one battery capacity or physical size, then that number grows. I am not sure if this is a good use of resources.

I think that simplifies a huge problem. There would have to be at least several form factors for very different cars (Rivian - Mini). I feel a problem is that this would lead to the car being designed around the battery, which could hold innovation. I agree that phones should have replaceable batteries (actually you can change the batt on just about any phone but it is a bit onerous) The non swappable battery is just not to make more money but does actually serve a purpose. A couple of months ago I slipped while getting out of my kayak and I fell into chest deep water with my phone in my pocket. The phone was well and truly submerged but it was fine. Any way I digress. Whoa there, that is a big claim. An IC car can last 40 years or more, but this is rare and calls for meticulous maintenance. I have never had a new car and my cars do tend to be older but at some point, mechanics start to complain that they cant get that spare part that you need to get back on the road. Do we want to drive around in a 40 year car in terms of safety features? There are early EVs around that have had their battery replaced. Initially this was expensive however the price is falling. There are 3rd party battery solutions. Cost: 40 kWh battery: Replacement can cost around $6,500 - $7,500. 62 kWh battery: Replacement can cost around $8,500 - $9,500 24 kWh battery: Replacement can cost around $3,000 - $5,000. 30 kWh battery: Replacement can cost around $3,500 - $4,500. I am not sure about that but I will have a look around. It stands to reason that the battery has to be paid for somehow. The battery swap station is not supplying the battery for nothing. Battery leasing, I imagine, would be cheaper up front however, not in the long run. It is like renting a house is cheaper up front than buying a house. When I lived in the bush, I used to go through a 9kg cylinder a week. With the cylinder swap system, you do need to start with a cylinder or pay more for the first one. Mostly I would get them refilled because it was much cheaper. Batteries ARE lasting the distance (see the research). The standard battery warranty is 8 years and 160,000 km, and some now are 10 years or 250,000 km. If I buy a new EV with a brand-new swappable battery and the first time I swap, I may get a battery that is towards the end of its life. Although I think Tesla batteries form part of the structure, this does not mean they are not replaceable. What about the convenience and economy of charging at home? I believe Nio charges to 90%. The charging rate slows down substantially for that last portion of the charge. My son charges his EV to 80% however, for a road trip, he will charge it to 100% He is able to manage his own charging regime. This is not correct. The majority of Taxis in China are not battery swap models. "In China, most electric vehicle (EV) taxis utilize plug-in charging rather than battery swapping. While battery swapping is an option, particularly for commercial vehicles like taxis and logistics trucks, plug-in charging remains the dominant method for EVs in general. China is also rapidly expanding its network of both battery swap stations and fast-charging stations." To be clear, I am not against battery swapping, and I see room for both, but when I eventually purchase an EV, I want to charge it mostly at home from relatively cheap (at the moment) overnight power or my excess solar.

This is one example of an early EV. EVs of this vintage had poor battery management and no battery cooling. In the last 10 years, battery chemistry and construction have improved massively. Don't take my word for it, just search for rigorous studies. If you hope to convince me, you need to post something more than one of the very early examples of an EV https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2024/12/existing-ev-batteries-may-last-up-to-40-longer-than-expected+ https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/ev-battery-longevity-concerns-unfounded-study-finds When it comes to battery swap, I think there is probably a place for it, but let's face it, it is not the solution for recharging large numbers of EVs If you look at countries that are way ahead on EV adoption, battery swaping does not seem to be a flourishing area of enterprise. Of course, at this stage, only one or two models are compatible. The idea that every EV could take the same battery regardless of whether it is a 2-seat convertible a family sedan or an enormous 4-wheel drive a little problematic. The battery for a Rivian is not going to fit in an EV Mini As an example, my son (if his car had a swappable battery) could drive to work for 4 or 5 days and then go to a battery swap centre and spend 5 or 10 minutes getting the battery swapped (assuming no queue) and pay a fee that covers the cost of the electricity, fitting etc. or he could drive into his garage once or twice a week, plug the car in and forget it. At 5 cents a kWh overnight it is hard to see how battery swap could compete. Tesla batteries are exceeding expectations, so what would be the benefit? Apart from that, how would battery swap stations work in the situation in this clip? 637 chargers serving 3300 cars a day

https://www.drivencarguide.co.nz/news/how-long-ev-batteries-really-last-according-to-new-data/

Apparently, commercial building owners can lease their roof space to a company that will put up solar panels. https://upstreamenergy.com.au/solar-solutions/roof-licensing

I have just been reading about megachargers. I think perhaps what is being missed by those who say you can't supply enough power to charge 10 vehicles simultaneously at a fast rate is the fact that these megacharge facilities that exist right now rely on storing energy in a large battery (battery buffering). These batteries can be charged 24/7 from the grid and supported by solar, etc. China's ultrafast EV charging station can charge 20 cars in 8 minutes

I have often come across or been sent this cartoon or similar versions. Besides the fact that most grids do not rely solely on coal and the fact that every year the percentage of renewables increases, it ignores the fact that petrol and diesel are also reliant on power from the grid. Of course we need to compare like with like, so for EVs this must include all inputs and likewise for IC According to AI It takes approximately 4 to 6 kilowatt hours (kWh) of electricity to refine one gallon of gasoline. This is equivalent to the energy needed to power an electric vehicle for roughly 16 to 24 miles, depending on the vehicle and its efficiency. Breakdown: Refining: The core refining process consumes about 4-6 kWh per gallon. Total Energy Input: This figure doesn't include the energy used for extracting the crude oil, transporting it to the refinery, or delivering the gasoline to the pump. These steps also require energy, some of which may be electricity. Comparison to EVs: A typical electric vehicle (EV) gets around 4 miles per kWh. This means the electricity used in refining a gallon of gasoline could potentially power an EV for 16 to 24 miles. Important Considerations: Efficiency: The efficiency of refineries and EVs can vary, so these are just estimates and Oil refineries are highly energy-intensive, and their electricity consumption varies widely depending on size, complexity, and specific processes. A medium-complexity refinery with a 150 kbbl/d capacity might need 50 MW or more of electricity. A rough estimate for a 30 MMTPA (million metric tons per annum) refinery is around 300 MW. Electrification of refineries, using low-carbon electricity for process heating, is a key strategy for reducing carbon emissions. Here's a more detailed breakdown: General Energy Consumption: Refineries consume a significant amount of energy, with some sources indicating it can be as high as 5-10% of the energy content of the crude oil processed. Electricity vs. Thermal Energy: While a large portion of a refinery's energy needs are met by burning fuels for process heating, a considerable amount of electricity is also required for various processes, including pumps, compressors, and other equipment. Factors Influencing Consumption: Refinery size, complexity (number of processing units), and the specific mix of products produced all affect the total energy and electricity demand, according to Concawe. Electrification Potential: Many refinery processes can be electrified, meaning they can be powered by low-carbon electricity sources, which is a crucial step in decarbonizing the industry. Example: A refinery processing 100,000 barrels per day (b/d) of crude oil might consume 6.3% of that amount in energy, with a portion of that being useful power (electricity). Cost: While electricity might only represent a small percentage of the total energy consumption in a refinery, it can account for a significant portion of the total energy costs.

The idea of shopping centre carparks with solar panels and charging stations is already a reality. Electric vehicle fast chargers have landed at Elizabeth City Centre

I agree. This is already starting to happen. There are a few that have already been in operation for a few years shopping centres such as Chadstone in Victoria and Elizabeth in South Australia. I am familiar with the one in Elizabeth SA, as I visit this area 4 times a year. Elizabeth Shopping Centre – Solar Car Park Shade and Membrane Structures Australia

This looks like similar to the unit i this vid. In this case, it is connected to the grid and when the battery is full and or demandis low it can sell back to the grid. Also, this was installed in 3 hours.

I believe Tesla already has a Megacharger for their semi trailer at their factory, and that they are building 46 in the US that canoutput up to 1.2Mw https://evchargingstations.com/chargingnews/tesla-develops-46-megacharger-stations-for-semi-trucks/ https://kempower.com/solution/megawatt-charging-system/

I do get your point, but I think the 5-minute charge is unnecessary. I am guessing that a charging station will not allow large numbers to charge simultaneously, and it will come at a cost. By the way, no Tesla can charge at that rate anyway; few cars can. It does not seem to be a killing blow to the adoption EVs Interestingly, BYD who I believe is pioneering 5 5-minute charging, don't believe there is much demand for it at the moment, especially given the cost-to-benefit analysis.

Yeah I get that. I think, though, that it is setting the bar very high. You must be able to refuel in 5 minutes flat. The long trip I did with my son's Tesla we never charged it to more than 80%. Each stop coincided with a piss stop or lunch or coffee. Other than lunch I don't think we stopped for more than 10 or 15 minutes. Sure, there are those for whom this would not be good enough. Some folks want to drive for hours without a stop. I guess the point I am making is that the naysayers construct these edge cases where they need to charge in 5 minutes, but this I would suggest, is rare. I get that charging 10 Teslas in 5 minutes simultaneously would be a bit of a stretch; however, I doubt that this is going to be how people charge and that it would be price prohibitive. The video from the charging station at Schengen is interesting. It takes about an hour to charge for a whole days driving. The taxi driver gets an hour a day to relax. The cost is a fraction of the cost of petrol and the historically polluted air of this city is improving. This sounds like everyone is winning.

OME have a look at some of the videos I have posted.

"Large batteries are increasingly being used to support EV charging stations, providing several benefits like reducing grid strain, enabling faster charging, and enabling grid stability through Vehicle-to-Grid (V2G) technology. These batteries can act as buffers, storing energy during off-peak times and discharging it during peak times, or when there is a high demand for charging, helping to manage the load on the grid". https://www.power-sonic.com/blog/battery-buffered-ev-charging/

Some very large charging stations, Shenzhen 637 chargers. these are not superchargers but yes all these taxis do charge at once (30 40 or 50 Kw) Merkingen Germany 250 chargers of various capacities. Barstow California 120 superchargers

Are you saying it takes 1Mwh to put 100Kwh into the battery?

How do you arrive at that figure? EV charger efficiency typically ranges from 85% to 95% for Level 2 charging, and slightly lower for DC fast charging. This means that for every 100 kWh drawn from the grid, 85-95 kWh are effectively stored in the vehicle's battery. The efficiency can vary based on the charger type, age, and maintenance. Elaboration: Charging Efficiency: This refers to how effectively electricity from the grid is converted into energy stored in the vehicle's battery. Level 2 Charging: This is the most common type of charging for home and public charging stations. It generally has a high efficiency, typically between 85% and 95%. DC Fast Charging: While DC fast charging can be quicker, it may have slightly lower efficiency compared to Level 2 charging. Energy Loss: Energy loss during charging primarily occurs as heat due to the conversion of AC power from the grid to DC power required by the battery. Factors Affecting Efficiency: Charger type, age, maintenance, and the vehicle's on-board charging system can all affect the overall efficiency. Importance of Efficiency: Higher efficiency means less energy is wasted during charging, potentially leading to lower electricity bills and reduced environmental impact.

I cant think of any country that is pushing for immediate EV adoption. Most countries have targets for 2030 to 2035, and this only applies to the sale of new vehicles.

Is it impossible to build a factory that has large power requirements in a country town? Some countries have a high EV uptake. Is Norway's grid collapsing? Are there enormous queues to charge? Certainly, Norway is not a vast country, although it is quite hilly and cold, which doesn't help. The premise that we don't have enough power rests on the idea that things never change.

Sure, at the moment, the grid could not support universal EV ownership. But are you saying that the grid has reached its ultimate capacity? Once upon a time, travel in remote areas in petrol cars was difficult. We are comparing a mature petrol distribution system with a developing charging network. Elsewhere in this forum, people have expressed an opinion that Australia should get back into manufacturing. We could say we don't have the power or grid to support lots of factories. This would be short-sighted. You build the grid you need. I don't believe there is any scenario where the number of EVs on the road increases massively in a short time. If you drive around the outskirts of most large cities, you will see vast estates being built. All of these houses require electricity. The grid has to grow to meet demand, and it will. As far as EV adoption goes we are way behind many other countries. This means the experiment is being done for us. Are other countries' grids with greater EV adoption collapsing? If enough people are driving long distances in the country and the facilities are insufficient, isn't this then a business opportunity?