Melbourne now the frontline

[Teckair]

So how would you prove that you are legally entitled to be in this country? Do we have to start carrying our birth certificates or citizenship papers around with us?

I don't think you should it is up to them to prove you should not be here. I think the id you have now should do it. This sounds like paranoid stuff.

 

 

[Litespeed]

And for the budget emergency minded -

 

The actual expected extra costs for creating the Border "Farce" is budgeted as $550 million extra over 4 years. And none of that is for extra wages- the staff are expected to lose benefits and take a real wage cut.

 

But hey, they get a black uniform, a gun and lots of new laws nobody understands.

 

 

[Robbo]

I have to disagree with a lot of the comments here. My response is "if you haven't done anything wrong your got nothing to worry about".

 

I am happy for the government to take action on this matter. My partner is a member of the Police Force and its better to quistain someone before hand than clean up the mess afterwards.

 

People would be blaming the government for not taking action earlier if someone commits a major incident yet they protest about the government for trying to prevent things from happening.

 

Thumbs up to the government.

 

 

[Litespeed]

If only in the realworld.

 

Robbo- just look at all the terror raids around this year, hundreds of police and lots of arrests and the only charge possible was for two knifes and a knuckle duster.

 

Operation "freedom overkill" coming to a suburb near you.

 

 

[Litespeed]

Better to stop them and hold them in case they think of doing something-

 

That is the hallmark of facist states.

 

I recall my Family members been locked up for the duration of WW1 and WW2 even though family was in the armed forces and we came in the 1830's.

 

Why- good German and Italian ancestors.

 

Our crime was genetic and no evidence to the contrary mattered.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I have to disagree with a lot of the comments here. My response is "if you haven't done anything wrong your got nothing to worry about".

I am happy for the government to take action on this matter. My partner is a member of the Police Force and its better to quistain someone before hand than clean up the mess afterwards.

 

People would be blaming the government for not taking action earlier if someone commits a major incident yet they protest about the government for trying to prevent things from happening.

 

Thumbs up to the government.

What an idiotic comment. Good on your partner for being a cop, but how does stopping everyone in Melbourne and asking them if they're actually from overseas and overstaying their visa prevent a "major incident"?

 

A few points about how brain-dead this whole idea was...

 

1) The way to catch people over-staying their visas is NOT to announce it to everyone that you're targeting a certain area.

 

2) How the hell do you tell that someone is a recent arrival and not a 3rd generation Australian. In Melbourne.

 

3) What do you do when you ask them if they're from overseas, and they tell you they're Australian, and to f*ck off.

 

4) Who carries their birth certificate/citizenship papers around with them? Or even has them?

 

5) How are the Bored Farce officers going to carry the required 6 Australian flags around with them as a backdrop? Surely it'd slow them down a bit.

 

I'm a bit confused as to how a so-called "liberal" government can think that a reduction in personal freedom is a good idea.

 

 

[Robbo]

They let them them go and they commit a crime watch the public change there attitude towards the government.

 

Marty, overstaying a Visa is a crime, not a major incident but still a crime.

 

So by finding them and deporting them is solving a crime, simple no matter how you look at it.

 

Anyway, this is my opinion so if you think its an idiotic comment thats your choice.

 

 

[Yenn]

Didn't the police kill as many citizens as the terrorists? Remember the Lindt Cafe. One killed by terrorist? one killed by police in complete stuff up of rescue mission.

 

 

[Robbo]

Didn't the police kill as many citizens as the terrorists? Remember the Lindt Cafe. One killed by terrorist? one killed by police in complete stuff up of rescue mission.

But how many were saved?

 

Even the hostages said if the police did not storm the building they would have been shot.

 

Stuff up of a rescue mission?

 

I think the authoritys did a perfect job under very difficult circumstances they waited as long as they could.

 

You think if they kept waiting the gunman would say "ok i am bored now you can have the hostages and you can arrest me now"

 

That piece of scum was prepared to die and take everyone with him, he proved that when he shot the manager.

 

 

[Robbo]

2) How the hell do you tell that someone is a recent arrival and not a 3rd generation Australian. In Melbourne.

 

3) What do you do when you ask them if they're from overseas, and they tell you they're Australian, and to f*ck off.

 

4) Who carries their birth certificate/citizenship papers around with them? Or even has them?

 

5) How are the Bored Farce officers going to carry the required 6 Australian flags around with them as a backdrop? Surely it'd slow them down a bit.

2) Photo ID, takes a few seconds to search for there name in the computer database with the immigration department.

 

3) Fine them for indecent language, and detain them for further verification. Exactly what police do if your pulled over and act like that.

 

4) Immigration computer database

 

5) Now thats an idiotic comment.

 

With iPad's and mobile data terminals it takes a very short time to find if someone is being honest.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Thanks for your reply Robbo.

 

2) As far as I know it is not a crime to walk the streets with no photo ID whatsoever. If I'm not driving a car I don't need to carry my licence.

 

3) Indecent language? Get over it. If cops are fining people for indecent language they need to be chasing real crime.

 

4) Well if they've got such a great database, why aren't they using it and visiting last known addresses of visa holders, instead of checking the visas of "everyone who crosses our path"? You know, basic detective work?

 

5) An idiotic ultra-nationalistic image deserves idiotic comments. Don't you remember Abbott, Dutton and the new leader of the Farce standing to attention in front of multiple sets of Australian flags?

 

 

[octave]

3) Fine them for indecent language, and detain them for further verification. Exactly what police do if your pulled over and act like that.

No problem with checking credentials of people when there is "reasonable suspicion". There is a world of difference between this and the RANDOM stopping and questioning of students, tourists and other people who are not quite the right colour.

 

Thumbs up to the government.

Not sure why you are congratulating the government when they claim that random checks were not what they intended and that it was just a poorly worded press release.

 

In terms of a database, I can tell you after being a citizen since 1971 and misplacing my certificate recently, it was not just a matter of the immigration dept. finding my name on a database, I virtually had to do the whole thing again. I had assumed that it would be a matter of identifying myself, but it was much harder than that and it was not an instant check on an Ipad.

 

3) Fine them for indecent language, and detain them for further verification. Exactly what police do if your pulled over and act like that.

Who exactly is "Them"?

 

 

[dazza 38]

If only in the realworld.

Robbo- just look at all the terror raids around this year, hundreds of police and lots of arrests and the only charge possible was for two knifes and a knuckle duster.

 

Operation "freedom overkill" coming to a suburb near you.

But they let Monas slip through the cracks.

 

 

[dazza 38]

But how many were saved?

Even the hostages said if the police did not storm the building they would have been shot.

 

Stuff up of a rescue mission?

 

I think the authoritys did a perfect job under very difficult circumstances they waited as long as they could.

 

You think if they kept waiting the gunman would say "ok i am bored now you can have the hostages and you can arrest me now"

 

That piece of scum was prepared to die and take everyone with him, he proved that when he shot the manager.

There is a difference between storming a building and storming a building tripping over each other trying to get through the front door.

 

 

[Robbo]

There is a difference between storming a building and storming a building tripping over each other trying to get through the front door.

Cannot help things like this when its a highly stressful and time critical operation.

 

These police members went in when they heard a gunshot, knowing they could be shot or explosives could be set off.

 

They had a job to do and they were focused.

 

With gunfire and flash grenades going off this was not a simple task and lives were at risk.

 

The priority is to get in quick and disable the gunman.

 

I am sick of hearing comments like why didn't you take him out through the window of the tv building, well its not easy to shoot through a few different pains of glass.

 

The police members should be congratulated for the work they did and also the ongoing work to keep us all protected.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Cannot help things like this when its a highly stressful and time critical operation.

These police members went in when they heard a gunshot, knowing they could be shot or explosives could be set off.

 

They had a job to do and they were focused.

 

With stun grenades, gunfire and flash grenades this was not a simple task and lives were at risk.

 

The priority is to get in quick and disable the gunman.

 

I am sick of hearing comments like why didn't you take him out through the window of the tv building, well its not easy to shoot through a few different pains of glass.

I never said ' take him through the window' , but they stuffed it up and killed a hostage. They should have been using H&K MP5's and not M4 Carbines. Better still, they should have stood down and handed resposibilty to TAG East the Commandos at Holsworthy. But this is only my opinion.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Channel Sevens building glass had been recently up rated to bullet proof.

 

Personally i think the storming should have been done with only two officers not a tribe of them. And 12 hours earlier. But WTF do i know.

 

 

[Robbo]

I never said ' take him through the window' , but they stuffed it up and killed a hostage

Sorry, was not saying you said that just past comments I have heard.

 

What is to say the military would not have killed even more hostages in the crossfire?

 

Of course now we can say "why didn't they", "they should have" but at the time there was so much going on things were overlooked.

 

What is to say the military could have do any better?

 

The gunman could have said shit the military is here lets end it now and assassinated everyone.

 

We can quistain everything now, but would have it helped or made things worse? We will never know.

 

Anyway my opinion is the police did a perfect job under the circumstances.

 

Remember the officers involved were under instruction from the hierachy so lets remember that.

 

These police members were ready to die to save those hostages lets not forget that either.

 

Police members risk there life daily (not forgetting our military) so lets not criticise them for "could have beens".

 

Thats my final comment on this entire thread topic.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Unfortunately police commanders now have "safety" so imprinted on their brains they are loathed to act until something forces them to (such as a hostage being shot). This means they are almost always reactive not proactive. I'm sure it is very frustrating for the copper at the coal face. Police commanders get promoted by kissing behinds, not stuffing up and office politics, they are usually not the risk taking type. SAS may have handle this better but that won't happen anytime soon in our nanny state.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Last time a policeman asked me for ID I showed him my driver license and went on my way.

The difference here Techy is that, whereas you were clearly driving a motor vehicle and the officer was probably acting within the powers available to her/him, the proposed ID checks by the ABF were to be conducted on a random ...or possibly profiled basis...without reasonable grounds or even reasonable suspicion. (I'll talk about ramp checks and the CASRs another time).

 

We each of us have the right to move freely within the borders of our country and the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. What the ABF was apparently going to do was reverse the onus so that anyone accosted had to prove themselves innocent. That has been done in both communist and fascist regimes and I don't like either of them. I certainly don't want it becoming the norm in MY country!

 

Kaz

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The problem for the cops is the budget gets blown on body armour, assault weapons and armoured vehicles and they are recruited being promised that they can "take down" the bad guys.

 

You put anyone into that situation and they will go full Rambo

 

 

[dutchroll]

Last time a policeman asked me for ID I showed him my driver license and went on my way.

So I take it you're unaware that not even a policeman can simply stop you in the street and demand ID unless you are reasonably suspected of having committed an offence, being about to commit an offence, or were in the vicinity of where an offence has occurred (eg, a possible witness etc)? The exception is legal stops like RBT etc.

 

If you personally are willing to totally surrender your own rights to walk around the streets conducting your business in a law abiding manner without being randomly stopped and questioned by Government officials (including police), that's fine. Many people are not.

 

Marty, overstaying a Visa is a crime, not a major incident but still a crime.

So by finding them and deporting them is solving a crime, simple no matter how you look at it.

No it is not.

 

Overstaying your Visa is not a criminal offence (ie, a "crime"). When you come to Australia with a Visa you are classed as a "lawful non-citizen". If you overstay your Visa you become an "unlawful non-citizen". Although you must then be arrested, there is no obligation to be brought before a court. You are either granted an extension to your expired Visa, or you are removed from the country. No charges. No conviction. No crime.

 

The definitions in the Migration Act can get complicated. However you cannot be charged with a crime for simply overstaying a Visa. It is not that simple.

 

 

[kaz3g]

But how many were saved?

Even the hostages said if the police did not storm the building they would have been shot.

 

Stuff up of a rescue mission?

 

I think the authoritys did a great job.

I thought the authorities stuffed up long before the siege when they failed to keep him under proper surveillance using all the new ant-terrorism powers they had been given...?

 

Kaz

 

 

[JIMMYTWO]

What an idiotic comment. Good on your partner for being a cop, but how does stopping everyone in Melbourne and asking them if they're actually from overseas and overstaying their visa prevent a "major incident"?

A few points about how brain-dead this whole idea was...

 

1) The way to catch people over-staying their visas is NOT to announce it to everyone that you're targeting a certain area.

 

2) How the hell do you tell that someone is a recent arrival and not a 3rd generation Australian. In Melbourne.

 

3) What do you do when you ask them if they're from overseas, and they tell you they're Australian, and to f*ck off.

 

4) Who carries their birth certificate/citizenship papers around with them? Or even has them?

 

5) How are the Bored Farce officers going to carry the required 6 Australian flags around with them as a backdrop? Surely it'd slow them down a bit.

 

I'm a bit confused as to how a so-called "liberal" government can think that a reduction in personal freedom is a good idea.

There is no need to drag people down to your level of thinking by saying their comments are idiotic and brain dead

 

 

[Marty_d]

There is no need to drag people down to your level of thinking by saying their comments are idiotic and brain dead

Read the post Jimmy. Yes I said his comments were idiotic, but the brain dead part was directed at Border Force. By the way, saying "drag people down to your level of thinking" is just as insulting, so you may want to take your own advice.