How Australia Perfected Solar Power and Then Went Back to Coal

[Old Koreelah]

...CO2 is a fertilizer, by the way; plants structures are built from it. I would imagine that it would make considerable sense to use some of the CO2 emitted by power stations to promote the growth of food crops in intensive (greenhouse) cultivation. I've no idea of the acreage involved; but it's a pertinent question I think - makes more sense than CO2 sequestration.

I totally agree, Dafydd. If we have to keep burning fossil fuels, we might as well get double value from them. We in the lucky country have traditionally wasted so much. In the sixties, Kawasaki pumped used hot water from their steel mills to eel farms, squeezing a bit of value from their waste. There are some promising developments in growing algae for conversion into liquid fuels. Run CO2 straight from the smokestack thru an algae farm to produce go juice.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

There are many abandoned mines in Australia. They could be used for pumped hydro storage to smooth out the peaks of other power sources. Each mine could generate 20MW for eight hours each day using a 500m head and 5 cubic metres per second of water, which could easily be stored in the abandoned workings and recycled.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Interesting idea, pm. I believe that, after the Balmain colliery was closed the mine workings, which ran under Sydney Harbour and out to sea, were used to store gas.

 

 

[Guest Captain1]

Surely some power stations can be economically retrofitted to improve efficiency. There are other ways to boilwater besides burning coal. Not far under Bayswater PS is one of Australia's most promising concentrations of hot rock. Why can't we tap that heat to run the two thermal power plants sitting right above it?

 

The last I heard about this fascinating resource was years back when a measly $5 million was grudgingly allocated to research its potential. Was it found to be a dumb idea, or has King Coal nudged the idea aside? .

 

The concept of using alternate heat sources has already been trialled: solar collectors at the nearby Liddell power station preheat some of the water for its generators.

 

The infrastructure is already in place and functioning. Why not give it a try?

So easy to say/write isn't it OK? And to chuck in a bit of good old ratbag Coal Industry conspiracy theory too.

 

 

 

But let's all try to take your post seriously, so I respond as follows:

 

 

 

I was involved the development of Bayswater Power Station so I know just a little about those units.

 

 

 

I also posted previously about being a supporter of geothermal power and did some work on that in NZ, but you may not have noticed that NZ is in a slightly more geothermally active area than are we in good old stable OZ. You can tell that by the way that there is no fresh lava evident in our region at the moment, we don't need to bother about flying into any volcanoes within a couple of hundred kms, and no bubbling mud or geizers etc in the Wyong/Lake Macquarie area.

 

 

 

You say that Bayswater PS is above our most promising "Hot Rock" concentration, yet the map by Geoscience Australia does not show that too clearly. See the map below.

 

 

 

I can't recall the temperature of the superheated steam feeding to the Bayswater Turbines but I'm pretty sure that it is well above the 255 C temp at 5 kms depth, so to consider this any further would need to go much deeper than 5 kms too. But we'd be foolish not to give it a try, wouldn't we?.

 

 

 

So "Why not give it a try?". Why don't you take all of your savings and assets and pump them into forming a company to commercialise Geothermal Power in the Bayswater Power Station region. It is certain to be a success and you will surely receive backing from all of the other anti-coal zealots. Why not give it a try? $750 M should get you going on a small pilot installation, and perhaps the next Labour/Greens government will subsidize it, except that some local group of rent-a-protester wacko's will probably chain themselves to the deep drilling machines to stop that work before you get started.

 

Regards Geoff

 

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[fly_tornado]

some hard numbers on the CSG business, going to be an environmental disaster once that gas leaks through the aquifers. Once upon a time CSG was seen as a cleaner energy source but the current thinking is once the gas starts leaking into the atmosphere any CO2 emission saving over burning coal will be lost.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/specials/coal-seam-gas-by-the-numbers/

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

So easy to say/write isn't it OK? And chuck in a bit of good old Coal Industry conspiracy theory too.But let's all try to take your post seriously, so I respond as follows:...

A disappointing approach, Captain. Do you suspect my intentions in raising this topic?

 

...you may not have noticed that NZ is in a slightly more geothermally active area than are we in good old stable OZ...and no bubbling mud or geizers etc in the Wyong/Lake Macquarie area.....

If you or anyone else has greater knowledge then we should all be happy to read about it; adopting a condescending tone does nothing for the discussion.

 

...You say that there is our most promising "Hot Rock" concentration...

Please Captain, if you are going to quote me, get it right: I actually said ."...one of Australia's most promising concentrations of hot rock." That's how it was described at the time.

 

The map you attached (which may be more up to date than the one I relied on) barely shows hot rock under the Muswellbrook area. I shall defer to your greater knowledge of the subject.

 

So "Why not give it a try?". Why don't you take all of your savings and assets and pump them into forming a company to commercialise Geothermal Power in the Bayswater Power Station region. It is certain to be a success and you will surely receive backing from all of the other anti-coal zealots. Why not give it a try? $750 M should get you going on a small pilot installation, and perhaps the next Labour/Greens government will subsidize it, except that some local group of rent-a-protester wacko's will probably chain themselves to the deep drilling machines to stop that work before you get started...

Sorry you chose to take this line, Geoff. I have few resources to invest, but am one of the interested little people who have a vested interest in the wise and sustainable investment of our nation's capital. As you may have noticed, many projects rely on the taxpayers' dollars to get them off the ground.

 

 

[Guest Captain1]

Sorry you chose to take this line, Geoff. I have few resources to invest, but am one of the interested little people who have a vested interest in the wise and sustainable investment of our nation's capital. As you may have noticed, many projects rely on the taxpayers' dollars to get them off the ground.

OK

 

I'm not for a moment having a crack at you, or anybody else's circumstances.

 

But I am critical of your post which on my understanding of the facts, is biased, base-less and incorrect.

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[Methusala]

The amount of energy falling upon the surface of Australia is prodigious. The means of harvesting this energy are well understood and production costs are falling rapidly. The (partially) true 'truism' that 'energy produced from renewable sources is harvested at inconvenient times' is used by (mostly) intellectually dishonest supporters of old polluting energy production systems in order to support their arguments. There are means available to bank this energy and, again, the technology is well understood and available. Thermal energy can be efficiently harvested by heating water or alternative matter to store solar energy for reuse within limited time frames. Pumped storage is already installed in the Snowy. I have seen a well engineered plan to add greatly to the Snowy's potential in this field involving a 55km , large diameter tunnel from Tantangara to Talbingo dam. This scheme foresees an enlargement of Tumut 3 power station and pumped storage using the largely unused reserve capacity of Tantangara pondage. The Tumut 3 power station already has 2 large capacity pumps installed for use of pumped storage. The main problem is the lack of political will and reluctance by the controllers of capital to engage in such projects. These projects are only the tip of a veritable iceberg of possibilities that could be realised if innovation was unrestrained. Sorry for introducing the concept of conspiracy but 'if it quacks like a duck..etc'. BTW conspiracy theories abound when one notes the stories from ICAC concerning Big Business and politicians.

 

 

[SDQDI]

I'm not going to get drawn into this argument but I wanted to bring something up that might be of interest to all.

 

While living out at hillston I heard of a small scale 'power station' being trialled in the lake cargelligo area. It was basically a group of towers with graphite used as a heat bank and to heat this tower they had them surrounded by concave mirrors which were on the ground and focused the sun on the graphite towers. I never got an opportunity to go and look at it but talked to a few that had and they were quiet impressed by it. I'm not sure if it is still running I would love for someone that had seen it in operation to tell us about it.

 

The idea of the graphite (not sure but think it was compressed into brick like form.) was that it was able to withstand and hold high temps which was used to boil water on demand.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

OK

I'm not for a moment having a crack at you, or anybody else's circumstances.

 

But I am critical of your post which on my understanding of the facts, is biased, base-less and incorrect.

 

Regards Geoff

Thanks for that clarification, Geoff. I presume you are referring in particular to the poor potential of hot rock under the Hunter region. On the basis of your map I would have to agree. Any bias I am guilty of may result from my life experiences, perhaps too much trust in my fellow man, and wishing the best for our children.

 

 

[SDQDI]

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/solar-energy-in-the-australian-outback-at-8ckwh-44381

 

Ok I googled it

 

 

[fly_tornado]

are these the guys who worked out a cheap way to purify graphite?

 

 

[Guest Captain1]

are these the guys who worked out a cheap way to purify graphite?

FT,

 

 

 

FYI I have just been involved in a major investigation of graphite projects and am not aware of any cheap way to purify it.

 

 

 

Graphite has been a sexy product over recent years due to the world's battery requirements, but most of the graphite products rely on high purity and controlled particle size and shape, all of which comes at reasonably high complexity and cost although the individual processes are well known. Mainly fairly conventional comminution, multi-stage flotation, regrinding and drying then screening, but often with chemical treatment and high temperature drying.

 

 

 

Spherical graphite product needs a mean particle size of 10 microns and a carbon content of a minimum of 99.95 wt % and that takes a lot of processing to achieve with certainty for a very picky market.

 

 

 

Brake pads need 92 - 96 wt %, Carbon brushes need 96 - 99 wt % in the 45 - 100 micron range, the lubricant market needs 99 wt % but fine in the 4 - 6 micron range with a maximum of 20 microns and pencils need 96 - 99 wt % carbon content and down around 4 - 6 microns median particle size.

 

 

 

Sorry about all the boring detail (I'm starting to compose my posts a bit like Daffydd) but with new Graphite mines coming on line all over the world, and given the almost exponential rise in battery development and production for all the new energy saving vehicles etc, this is quite a big deal and a licence to print money if anyone can genuinely find a cheap & guaranteed reliable way to process graphite to high purity and controlled fine particle size and shape. There are a few claims being made by opportunists as there always is when a material becomes sexy in the world market.

 

 

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I remember seeing a news item a while back about an Australian company that had perfected a cheap way to produce graphite.

 

Meanwhile in California

 

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2014/google-invests-145m-to-turn-oil-field-into-solar-plant-35455

 

 

 

[Methusala]

Saw this plant in the Mojave Desert between Las Vegas and Los Angeles a few months ago. Very impressive.[ATTACH]47456._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

[Marty_d]

which of our brown coal generators is not required any more , the more solar and wind power generated the more normal electricity will cost because the brown coal station is still needed to generate all the needed power when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine but most of the costs of a coal power station are fixed ie makes no real difference wether they are generating or not which also a bit like the desal plant

Geothermal anyone? Temperature underground doesn't change much.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Oh this thread still going ...

I am not anti electric this and that, I am anti bu11shite, hype and ridiculous amounts of my money going to research that hasn't gone anywhere and isn't going anywhere until someone comes up with something that we simply do not understand yet, and that usually comes by accident when looking for something else.

 

My City of Chengdu, best known for Pandas, just up the road from my City of Deyang (I own houses and live periodically in both cities) is one of the leading vehicle environment cities in the World and has been since before I arrived here. All taxis, buses must run natural gas and motorcycles are completely banned other than electric scooters. Cars are all recent of course, Euro 4 minimum and it is 100% against the law to modify them in any way.

 

I can sit outside at an Ex-Pat's pub at one of the cities major intersections with a major bus stop 20 meters away with one stopping less than every minute, and talk to people in complete peace without smelling exhaust fumes, listening to loud sports bikes, Harleys or idiots in their turbo Nissan/Subaru/POS. The biggest danger is stepping in front of an electric scooter because they are dead silent and you don't hear them coming.

 

I agree that the pollution is merely moved elsewhere but isn't it better that kids can walk a city street without breathing immediate condensed crap into their lungs.

 

In the last couple of years there has been a huge surge in tiny electric cars, think of a Smart but smaller again, and along with all the millions of electric scooters, their is no registration required as long as it goes no faster than 40kmh. - imagine the Australian Government letting any unregistered vehicle on the road.

Sounds like paradise Bex, but smacking your 40kmh scooter into a smart car doing 60kmh is still enough to kill you or damage you seriously. Without registration who pays the MAIB / injury insurance premiums? Of course the same goes for bicycles here now, they're subsidised by other road user's registration but they're a minority and most bike riders are also car owners. If you have a city full of unregistered vehicles it would become a problem.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

"Geothermal anyone? Temperature underground doesn't change much."

 

Geothermal = fracking radioactive rock = nuclear but remote areas (in Australia) and with limited control.

 

Why not have a proper controllable nuclear power plant positioned where you need it & save all the transmission runs also? As a bonus it will also work consistently unlike Flannerys dud thing.

 

Bottom line, if you like geothermal you like fracking and nuclear, good for you. Nuke is natures power source of course.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Without registration who pays the MAIB / injury insurance premiums?

Most Chinese have personal accident insurance. It's cheap of course because the Doctors and Hospitals are State run for the people as they damn well should be. The State also gives you a health debit card that's charged up each year building in value till you use it.

 

2 days ago (yes, Saturday) my Missus went for an endoscopy after having sever stomach pains for a few days; To see Doctor, endoscopy with pictures and report, blood test and prescription medication = $110 and in and out in about 3 hours.

 

Also, all cars are fully insured here, can't get registration without it, but that's for the cars, not injury. No stupid lawsuits will get through a Court here either.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

^ standard CCP line again. You are a real mouthpiece for the Chicoms buddy, a useful idiot as Stalin would say.

 

Tell us about the pheasant who had to amputate his own leg as the Chinese hospitals wanted a $48k deposit from him.

 

This Man Amputated His Own Leg: That’s How Bad China’s Health Care Crisis Is

 

More here....

 

 

[Marty_d]

the pheasant who had to amputate his own leg

LOL

 

"I'm not the pheasant plucker, I'm the pheasant plucker's wife...

 

And when we pluck together it's a pheasant pluckin' life..."

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

"Geothermal anyone? Temperature underground doesn't change much."

 

Geothermal = fracking radioactive rock = nuclear but remote areas (in Australia) and with limited control.

 

Why not have a proper controllable nuclear power plant positioned where you need it & save all the transmission runs also? As a bonus it will also work consistently unlike Flannerys dud thing.

 

Bottom line, if you like geothermal you like fracking and nuclear, good for you. Nuke is natures power source of course.

 

Don't get too hung up on transmission costs; if our government would allow the spread of rooftop solar to continue, more energy would be collected right where it's needed. Our cities could eventually become net energy exporters.

 

Nuclear power has only ever been economical when integrated with weapons development. During the Cold War many countries put up with the vast expense and safety issues because they were told nuclear would secure their future.

 

Now a much more ominous threat to our future has been identified. We should be prepared to pay for a solution. Nuclear fusion provides limitless power, and it's available everywhere. The reactor is a safe distance... 150,000km away. Smart countries are investing in that clean future. Australia is becoming increasingly isolated as an exporter of dirty energy.

 

.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Don't get too hung up on transmission costs; if our government would allow the spread of rooftop solar to continue, more energy would be collected right where it's needed. Our cities could eventually become net energy exporters.

Nuclear power has only ever been economical when integrated with weapons development. During the Cold War many countries put up with the vast expense and safety issues because they were told nuclear would secure their future.

 

Now a much more ominous threat to our future has been identified. We should be prepared to pay for a solution. Nuclear fusion provides limitless power, and it's available everywhere. The reactor is a safe distance... 150,000km away. Smart countries are investing in that clean future. Australia is becoming increasingly isolated as an exporter of dirty energy.

 

.

I'm actually a supporter of nuclear. Unlike Japan, we're on a relatively stable landmass not subject to high levels of tectonic movement. Trouble is, they should have started 25 years ago, not now.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

^ standard CCP line again. You are a real mouthpiece for the Chicoms buddy, a useful idiot as Stalin would say.

Tell us about the pheasant who had to amputate his own leg as the Chinese hospitals wanted a $48k deposit from him.

Gnarly, it's beyond belief that you could consider here in peasants'ville that a hospital would demand $480 let alone $48,000. But here's one back at you, did you know all Farmers in China are on a pension? Doesn't matter if they are productive or not, they get it anyway.

 

I have had minor surgery here 4 years ago, was $30 including meds. I arrived at hospital, no prior arrangement, and I was on my way home 45 minutes later. Most of my upper teeth are now caps and one bridge, 4 major sessions at the Dentist, $220 total, fantastic work too.

 

I had the same procedure done in Logan 8 years earlier, went to GP, referral to Specialist, saw Specialist, minor surgery 6 months later - sound familiar? I have also raised 3 kids in Logan, I have sat countless numbers of hours at night at Logan Hospital waiting room just waiting to be seen - I'm sure that one sounds familiar to a lot of people reading this as well.

 

I reckon you need to put your energy into Australia's health care rather than being an ignorant muppet for whatever cause of your's it is. I seriously can't believe anyone in this day and age of communications and information availability still falls for the Government's old line of pointing to another country to hide their own failings.

 

$48,000, bloody hell, they could have tried it out at $4,800 and had some resemblance of believable

 

 

[fly_tornado]

GNu's facts aren't what they used to be.