octave

Grew up on a farm, well aware of what goes on in an abattoir, just think that it's obscene, that everyone has to follow certain rules, but you can claim your religion requires that you don't have to comply with the rules and that makes it OK. (see posts 241 & 244)

It is interesting that people are concerned about Halal but don't seem to be as concerned about Kosher

Halal and kosher slaughter - Facts - Aussie Abattoirs | Slaughterhouses, killing animals for human consumption

All I know is that I can't understand it. But I must be in a tiny minority or it wouldn't happen.

 

$489k for a school principal? wow

not sure about that figure, unless that is what a Principal gets in the private school system. Here are the pay levels for the NSW public system

"Beginning teachers in NSW public schools enjoy one of the highest commencing salaries of any profession. In 2013, four-year trained teachers start on a salary of $59,706. Salary increases are by annual increments subject to satisfactory performance, with our most experienced classroom teachers earning $89,050 in 2013.

Of course, our school leadership positions earn higher salaries, reflecting increased levels of responsibility. For example, our assistant principals and head teachers earn a base salary of $102,482 and primary and secondary deputy principals earn $119,654. A principal of a large high school earns up to $153,050. Read more about ourteachers' salaries and allowances."

Benefits and incentives - NSW Department of Education

It seems that most of the population which is not centred on London voiced its anger at the loss of industry and employment. It seems that the London lifestyle, powered by the financial sector is foreign to the lifestyle of he rest of the country. The pampered ones care not a zot for the workers.

Scotland????????

"According to polling data from YouGov, 75% of 18- to 24-year-olds voted to remain in the European Union. On Friday, the UK voted to leave, with 52% of the overall vote."

It seems that young people prefered to stay, and why wouldn't they? I can certainly understand why young educated people would want the option to freely travel and work in Europe. I suspect the leave vote may mainly comprise of older people. As someone who was born in Britain but left at the age of 2 (1964) because Britain was not the vibrant place it is now, I am quite familiar with and have many relatives who are what I would refer to as "Little Englander's"

Anyway, no need to argue about whether leaving is the right decision or not, time will tell whether Britain thrives or not.

What I find mind blowing about Einstein (and others) is that the mathematics preceded the actual observations. The implications of Einstein's theory of general and special relativity must have seemed like nonsense to those who were unable to understand the maths and yet we now, many years after Einstein's death, have observational proof .

The same applies to the Higgs boson, black holes and recently gravitational waves. What a great time to be alive.

In terms of belief, I would say that I do not believe in science but I do believe that scientific method is the best way to work towards truth. The strength of science is that it is self scrutinizing.

Some religious people accuse people like me of being religious and that my religion is science. I of course reject this notion, but if it were a religion at least would be a religion that changes and evolves as new discoveries are made rather than one that is fixed and unalterable. The bible (insert any of the religious texts) is not up for peer review.

as far as the precision of alignment goes, this is quite interesting https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn174-pyramid-precision/

the link posted by turbs http://transmissionsmedia.com/the-inexplicable-precision-in-the-construction-of-the-great-pyramid-at-giza/ apparently is an exerpt from a book called “Fingerprints of the Gods” by Graham Hancock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerprints_of_the_Gods . The agenda is in the name!

The thrust of the book seems to be amazing technology, engineering and science therefore god (or aliens)

Just in case anyone thought Theism was the default setting for homo sapiens:

Atheism is as natural as religion, new research suggests, throwing doubt onto the notion humans are preprogrammed to believe in deities.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/atheism-is-as-old-as-religion-new-study-suggests-a6879341.html

Just listening to this - the history of atheism https://radio.abc.net.au/programitem/pgzY744e47?play=true

God single, the God that led to the creation story in Genesis in the Bible. Genesis was clearly written thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years after the event, or millions actually.

The further back we go the less bible errors affect what we find in artifacts.

 

I'm looking for realistic useable data, but I don't expect proof in the form of God's sneakers or false teeth

 

Can you come up with proof God does not exist?

Can you come up with evidence that unicorns don't exist?

Surely you would agree that the burden of proof lays with proving something does exist rasther than something doesn't exist. http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/146-proving-non-existence

But of course I could be wrong, let's assume that god does exist, does it make a scrap of difference whether I believe in him/her /it???? My question would be does this god require me to believe in him/her/it? If I use the intellect I was born with and the education my parents and my society provided me and I come to the conclusion that she/he/it doesn't exist will I be punished by it/she/he??? Why does this god care what I think????

I haven't been following the front end of the research lately, but from memory, the human race as we know it is known to be around 300,000 years old based on artifacts. We need to get back into that area to get fresher data on belief or otherwise in God.

Also, you seem to place great deal of importance on the length of time that humans have believed in gods as if this adds to the gods credibility. The belief in witches is not rendered any more credible by its long history.

I haven't been following the front end of the research lately, but from memory, the human race as we know it is known to be around 300,000 years old based on artifacts. We need to get back into that area to get fresher data on belief or otherwise in God.

Turbs, I think I should warn you that I am feeling particularly argumentative today:book:

300,000 years? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens

"Anatomically modern humans first appear in the fossil record in Africa about 195,000 years ago (seeOmo remains), and studies of molecular biology give evidence that the approximate time of divergence from the common ancestor of all modern human populations was 200,000 years ago.[18][19][20][21][22] "

Yes, and our base motivating factors are very similar.

Absolutely, I am quite sure that if you suddenly lost your religion you would be just as moved by the plight of a starving child or an accident victim. This is empathy and it is not exclusively a human characteristic. I don't doubt that religion can motivate some people to do great things but then perhaps the belief that this life is the only one you get can also be a motivator to do great things.

Maybe I should have said "Ever seen a socialist group organise funds to build a school?" I also work with and donate to when in their meetings political parties I don't vote for, so I can understand your point. And no, you're not a prominent example.

So you donate to political parties that you don't vote for and I have donated time and money to a school at which I have no children, I would say then that you with your belief and me with my non belief actually behave in similar ways when it comes to donating.

Same reasons, atheists have a way of getting up your nose with their constant denials, and people don't like it so they just close ranks.

Interesting, "constant denials" It certainly is not my practice to introduce myself as a non believer, I would say many of my friends and colleagues would have no idea what I believe in or not, it simply is not relevant to my day to day dealings with people. If someone asks me about my position on religion I am happy to discuss it but I do not believe defending my position could be described as "constant denials" or shrill.

I have never had an atheist knock on my door to discuss atheism. I don't believe I have ever been in a social or work situation where someone apropos of nothing has proclaimed their atheism, in my experience it has only ever been in response to a believers questions (which can be quite fascinating and even friendly) or their proselytizing (usually not so friendly)

that is because people who believe in God and particularly who read the Bible get a message that it is essential to look after those worse off than you. There's nothing really stopping atheists doing the same.

I have, as long as I can remember, had a payment to charity taken out of my account (even through lean periods). I donate to Oxfam Australia which at least claims to be independent and secular. Whilst I applaud charity carried out by religious groups I am keen to avoid the kind of charity that comes with a bowl of rice in one hand and a bible in the other hand.

There are many secular charitable organizations such Red Cross, Médecins Sans Frontières/Doctors Without Borders, Amnesty International, Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. My wife works with a water engineer (and non believer) who donates his time to Engineers Without Borders, helping to supply clean drinking water in 3rd world countries.

As a non believer I donate time and money to charity not for any reward or because a book tells me to but I guess out of a sense of empathy and a realization that I have been born into a time and place of great relative wealth.

Do tell me turbo if I am getting too "shrill" for you

with an anti-God drive many atheists also drift to the left into the socialist camp, and we have a couple of prominent examples posting here. Ever seen a socialist organise funds to build a school?

Am I a "prominent example"? Have I ever seen a socialist raise money for a school? I see what you did there, you conflated atheism with socialism and then asked if I had ever seen a socialist organise funds for a school. I have helped raise money for a school (and I did not even have a child attending that school.) I have many friends who work pretty hard to raise money for schools.

Morning Turbo, long time no argue!

It's illegal to discriminate against someone on religious grounds, illegal to even ask them in an interview, but a lot of atheists are so in your face every hour of every day taking every opportunity to ridicule believers, attack the Bible, tell people they are wasting their time going to church, that they shouldn't be surprised if they are quietly shifted to the side. Much earlier in this thread I quoted the Collins New English Dictionary definition of an Atheist as "one who denies the existence of God." Don loudly proclaimed I had the wrong dictionary, but many of the shrill posts in this thread match that description.

Not quite true, there are exceptions http://www.humanrightscommission.vic.gov.au/index.php/exceptions-exemptions-and-special-measures/exceptions

Shrill posts? I guess I can only speak for myself but I always put great effort into challenging ideas not attacking people. Remember how this thread started, a lame joke about how stupid atheists are. I could be wrong here but have any threads been started by someone pushing their atheism?

See you are attempting to argue from a position of profound ignorance; if you knew even the most basic tenets of Christianity you would understand this one.

Atheism has 'evolved' from straight out Marxism to rage against God. Sad really, you shake your puny fist in ignorance unwilling to spend a few hours reading enough to understand the basics of what life is all about.

Well perhaps you could educate me. I note that you did not answer any of my questions.

Marxist rage against God?????? Are you saying that before Marx there was no atheism????

No I am in denial because I am scientifically literate.

 

But perhaps you could convince me. So tell me, were there kangaroos aboard the ark? How did they get to the location of the ark? Once the flood waters receded how did they get to Australia without leaving a single fossil outside of Australia?

 

Presumably fish were not considered evil enough to be killed. Was nobody else in possession of a boat? Was the only way for god to deal with the defective humans he created to drown them? Why did god create defective humans (surely he could of forseen this). Why did he drown badgers but not fish?

 

Who is the fantasist?

Yes, this is how Darwinian evolution is supposed to work, except without any hands. Just needs blind faith - a lot of it.

Yes, where as believing a universal flood and the accommodation of 8.7 million species on a wooden boat is totally logical an believable.

A free VPN allows me to watch BBC programs just after they are aired in the UK. Most recently I watched (almost live) the space walk of British astronaut Tim Peake with commentary from Brian Cox, Dara O'biain, retired astronaut Chris Hadfield plus 2 other experts. Very engaging as they did have an emergency during the space walk.

It amazes me when people bag the BBC, either they hate science or they don't actually watch it.

Not a crime at all.

Refer to my last post.

as far as business goes, I guess it depends on the business, as I said preciously I am a musical instrument teacher, I work for myself and also for a music studio. the owner of this studio has a FB page as well as other social media. On this page various student achievements are posted (with the students agreement). Exam results, Teacher profiles (important to prospective customers) Exam deadlines etc. Most of the customers are younger people and this is how they get their information. In a business sense it is a case of evolve or possibly become extinct, this has always been the case in business.

Social media is for socialising and showing the world how big your ego is, what you ate for dinner, that your bum does look big in that etc.

if this is what happened when you used social media (and you must have used it in order to form this opinion) maybe it says more about the people you connected with. You said that forums are different because that are special interest groups, my fB page is also a special interest group, it consist of people I get pleasure from communicating with and presumably people who enjoy communicating with me, is that a crime?

Yep Facebook is all scary and evil - this is what I use it for:

I live in Melbourne and my 25 year old son moved to Wellington NZ 18 months ago, although I do of course miss him, every day he will send me a link to something he knows I am interested in and I will will do the same. I know what my son is up to and I know he is successful and happy. I get to share in his life and he is interested and likes to share in my life also. We also skype regularly. we share jokes that we know will amuse each other because we have the same twisted sense of humour.

My 87 year old father who lives interstate is on FB, he is getting old and frail but loves to research and find old shipmates from his Navy days in the late 40s and early 50s. Although he lives interstate I know when all is going well with him, we also skype regularly. Interestingly his mother back in England when she was still alive would never use the telephone being deeply suspicious of it and its effect on society - sad really, other than visits the only contact was the weekly letter.

The first 12 years of my working life was spent in the RAAF where I met some great friends but as often happens I lost touch with them, I now, through Facebook have regular contact with the ones I want to have contact with.

I have been a musical instrument teacher for the last 25 years. During this time I have taught hundreds of students, I have always cared deeply for my students and it brings me great pleasure when they make contact with me and I see how their lives have turned out. An ex student of mine has been travelling the word and she is quite a gifted photographer, I am keen on photography so obviously I absolutely love seeing her daily upload of pictures (so much better than anything I do but very inspirational)

At the moment I am on holiday, staying with my son in NZ, as a keen photographer, every day I upload some photos. Amongst my contacts on FB some people probably don't look at my photos (and that is fine) some may look at them and make the odd comment, others may ask questions about where I have been and others will discuss the finer points of photography with me . In the good old days I can recall my blood running cold whilst visiting a friend who has recently returned from a holiday when they unfolded the screen and brought out multiple carousels of slides. Now if my friends have gone on holiday I can choose to look at there pics on Facebook or not, I can like or not but the choice is mine.

Often the accusation is made that FB friendships are shallow, I am the sort of person who will say hello to someone on the the street, when I go to my local shop I am thrilled to hear about the young woman's recent trip home to Turkey, is this shallow? (I don't even know her name).

Apart from the social aspect there is of course the business necessity to have a social media presence, most successful businesses understand that it is important to have a social media presence. For many years I worked for a guy who said he didn't need a web presence because he spent huge sums of money on a large yellow pages add (can't remember the last time I used a real phonebook) needless to say he eventually had to catch up with his competitors (the world wont stop innovating just because some are uncomfortable with it)

It is interesting that most people who complain about social media don't actually use it and seem to have a skewed idea about how it can work. My elderly father (who is getting close to the end of his life) today posted pictures of himself when he used to perform in amateur musicals, he does seem to be accepting that his days are numbered and he seems to be looking back over his life. I found these pictures to be very moving (and I am not easily moved) as have other people. I guess the FB knockers would say he was an insecure narcissist idiot???????

Social media in the way I (and many others) use it adds to my life, if that makes me shallow, narcissistic or stupid then so be it. I Guess I think that social media now is the the same as the telephone that my grandmother in England refused to use.

Whilst I get annoyed by silly rules and regs, it can't be denied that deaths in the workplace have been drastically reduced. (I have had too many glasses of shiraz to post supporting stats, but please feel free to check).

I recently took a friend flying, this friend knew nothing about flying. When I called "clear prop" before starting, they were quite bemused. Can't you see that there is no one around they asked. I could only answer that aviation involved trying to avoid any possible accident scenario wherever possible. I am fine with that, I will continue to call "clear prop" even when I am confident that there could no possibly anyone around. If I have to wear glowy jacket, fine (as long as it does not make my arse look big).

As a small child I was allowed to stand in the car in the front seat in front of my mother with my face inches away from the metal dash. my parents were not bad or neglectful parents, that is just what people did, now we know better and the law reflects this. When some of these laws were introduced they were considered to be over the top.

Of course that does not mean every new rule is good but lets not throw the babyout with the bathwater. If glowy jackets are not a safety enhancement but indeed a safety hazard, this will show in the accident stats. I notice that so far this discussion has only involved anecdotes and feelings rather than hard facts and stats. I would love to post some hard facts but... damn you Pepperjacks shiraz :P

or the Chinese system which is truly democratic, would see improvements.

Can you explain how democracy works in China? (not trying to be a smart arse, just don't really know how it works)

Twice the comment was made on the news that in both Paris and Brussels there are 'no go' areas where non Muslims are not welcome and will not venture into. Multicultural society, what a effing joke. How long before we have that here?

I have no first hand knowledge of how accurate this statement is,. I am aware that people on all sides will present truths, half truths and total distortions as fact. As far as no go areas here, I literally live directly across the road from a mosque and although, like anyone else, I do have some fears of terrorism, I do try to keep it in perspective. Whilst watching the kids at the mosque playing soccer, I do not think they are planning to do me in. I am probably more afraid becoming collateral damage from someone like this guy.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/vic/a/30144973/prominent-reclaim-australia-member-arrested-after-police-seize-weapons/

I know these attacks cause anger and fear (as they are designed to) I have fears, but I try to be rational. As an non theist I think all religions are ridiculous but I certainly don't think that my friend Azedeh, who with her parents escaped Iran in the 70s (persecuted for being educated intellectuals) has any kind a plan to do me in or take over my country and should not have to be subjected to suspicion or public comments shouted from a passing car.

The dangers of Islamist terrorism are very real and can not be ignored, we need to go to war with the terrorist not a whole community, that is just inefficient and dumb.