octave

Ah, but look at them now. Had a sensible, thoughtful leader from a scientific background since 2005. Proof positive that there's hope for any country if they can learn from the mistakes of the past.

It is a shame that we don't have any candidates like this

Former NASA astronaut Mark Kelly is running for the US Senate in Arizona

Kelly, who is also a former engineer, suggested that climate change will be one focus of his campaign, as warmer weather will lead to more droughts in Arizona. “We’ve seen this retreat from science and data and facts, and if we don’t take these issues seriously, we can’t solve these problems

Apparently, Australian are drinking much less alcohol than in the past. I definitely drink less than I used to. I share 1 or 2 bottles of wine a week with the wife (she is a keeper because she only likes a small glass). I also enjoy good quality craft beer (yes I am a pretentious wanker). When she and I go to a beer establishment we tend to get a tasting flight and spend a lot of time discussing the merits of the various offerings and then we may buy a schooner each of the one we like the best. The idea of drinking 8 pints of Fosters does not appeal at all. Craft beer at $15 a schooner is to be savoured and discussed not necked.

OK here is my take on this (for what it is worth)

Pell is definitely not a person I admire. Exhibit A George Pell: Ridsdale abuse 'wasn't of much interest to me'

The people who are expressing doubt are suggesting that the scenario presented seems unlikely. The points I have seen presented in defence are that it is the word of one person and a person who has since died who when asked by his mother said he had not been abused. My take is this

We know that it takes many years for people to admit that this has happened to them and that not immediately reporting abuse does not mean that it did not happen.

The suggestion that only a mad man would perform these acts in a location where they could be easily be discovered. An alternative interpretation could be that it would not be the end of the world if a colleague were to walk in.

Oh dear because of his robes. he could not get it out, What so he could not take a leak?

The complainant is lying. To what end? As far as I can tell there is not a claim for money from this person. In fact, according to the book by Louise Milligan, who interviewed this person extensively, they kept quiet about these events until the death of another victim. After this time they claim that they thought they owed it to the person who kept silent. It is possible that this person in the distant future may receive some compensation but this is a very long and arduous way to make some money. I am not sure I can believe that this man is a greedy villain.

Andrew Bolt, Miranda Divine and John Howard and a few others think that Pell is a great guy and they can't accept that he could have committed such an offence. Of course, we all believe that our friends and family are beyond reproach, it is human nature and understandable.

If we are ignoring the fact that the police, public prosecutor. judge and jury are convinced and we want to consider what is likely, we must look at whether or not there is a precedent for a Catholic clergyman to commit such an offence. I mean has this EVER happened before? Remember Pell accompanying Gerald Ridsdale to court?

Sea level data ALTERED by scientists to create false impression of rising oceans

Phil do you consider this site to be a source of reliable information?

The article states that NASA confirms sea levels are falling. This is what NASA does claim New Study Finds Sea Level Rise Accelerating (Feb 14 2018)

So how trustworthy is NaturalNewscom Natural News - Wikipedia well not very, it is known as a conspiracy site.

FACT CHECK: Does NASA Data Show That Global Warming Isn’t Causing a Sea Level Rise?

It is interesting to read a list of the "most viewed articles" on this site, here are just a few:

How the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact might unleash a violent civil war following the 2020 election… which is exactly what Democrats want

Florida now following California in forcing toxic, deadly vaccines onto millions of children

EMERGENCY REPORT: Signed Executive Orders reveal Trump is planning mass arrests, military tribunals for deep state traitors like Comey, Clinton and Obama – UPDATE

Vaccine debate makes more people question safety and effectiveness – so the industry has SHUT DOWN all discussion

3 Reasons to start your morning with a glass of cayenne pepper water

Elderberries are more effective than vaccines at protecting you against colds and flu

That old man river, " he must know something but he don't say nothing" deserves a visit from the grammar police.

Dropped words are very common in many dialects. My family and relatives were all born in Yorkshire. Some of my older relatives would say I'm going t shop.

But then as my 91-year father says

Yorkshire Born, Yorkshire Bred, Strong in't arm and weak in't head

Yes Greenspeed GT20sand I haven't so far managed to get the dog in the trailer to pedal.

I do remember going on a long ride and after a while, my 5-year-old son went quiet. We looked back to see that he had fallen asleep and restrained by his harness had slumped to one side his helmet almost touching the road. Other than that we had a great few years on that beast.

Pedal elect systems where you must pedal or the "assist" system cuts out are limited to 250 watts and 25kph"Throttle" systems where you do not need to pedal but can start and cruze completely on electric are limited to 200watts and 25kph. These are the rules in Victoria and I think the rest of Australia and quite a few other countries as well.

 

My wife and I each have pedal elect recumbent trikes with 250 watt motor and 36volt 15 amp hr batteries. I have done 120kms on one charge and still had life in the battery, and we both did last week 350 kms of Victorian rail trails.

 

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They look like Greenspeeds. Back in about the mid 90s we had Greenspeed build the first recumbent trike with pedal-powered trailer, a truly awesome machine

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AND back to Electric car's .It's come to light that there's a Big problem with All the petrol / diesel car's coming off the road.

 

It will leave a huge hole in the TAX uptake, NO federal and GST tax, being bled from the motorist.

 

Anyone rich enough to let me drive an electric car. ( second hand will do), as I hate paying TAX

 

I"m not laughing on this point. Please

 

spacesailor

I did read an article somewhere that mentioned this problem. It does seem to be on the radar and obviously, eventually, the tax will have to be replaced. Electric cars still need to use roads and these have to be paid for.

My son who lives in Wellington NZ recently bought a BMW I3 ev apart from anything else it made economic sense for him. This car is his daily drive. He does have 5 other cars including 2 motorsport cars but for his daily drive the I3 is great. Later this year I am going over there and we are going to do a road trip in the EV around the south island

.

spacesailor, house? you were lucky to have ouse we lived int shoebox int middle of road!

The idea that action to save the planet is URGENT is new and not accepted much. Not like an invasion of aliens would be accepted.But I have to admit that there are limits to what I'd be prepared to do, and I really believe that urgent stuff is needed. Most don't.

 

Take using human waste for fertilizer.. yes I would accept this but only if it were done in conjunction with population controls and similar stuff.

 

( human poo is ok for cooked food but not for salads, where tapeworm eggs survive most sewage treatment works).

 

We are one of the few countries where it is safe to eat lettuce for example. I really like living here but it's not sustainable.

Bricks Made From Human Waste Could Be The Future of The Construction Industry

New Italian Police Car

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Pity they didn't have someone who could drive it.

 

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Crash! Feds exceed the Swede limit

Regent debate aside....

It will not be long before solar covered wings with minimal weight are used to recharge. As long as there is daytime, you have some power. A bright cloudless day you have a handy amount to augment the batteries and greatly increase range.

 

We are world leaders in solar research and have been for 30 years. We now have the ability to print a solar cell onto a plastic film. As efficient as a heavy old gen cell but will only improve. Its not much heavier than a laminating film. As development continues it will be much higher efficiency and even cheaper. Its uses basically a jet printer modified.

 

100 square feet as a example can provide a lot of charge and a suitable design with lighter batteries which will happen, is a exciting prospect. Long winged solar and battery aircraft have a big future. In a motor glider configuration, range at suitable speed could be very long. Then land and recharge from the sun. Add a small fuel engine to augment range when needed and we might see 4 LTS hr or less at a nice 120 knots. The small engine runs at high efficiency only when needed for boost power such as takeoff , low settings for cruise or charging. It can be wherever design and c of g dictates. A much smaller tank of say 40 litres and you could still go a long way.

 

The pipestrel was using only 3o HP or less with good speed. A optimised hybrid with solar could get that a lot lower.

 

I can imagine 120 knts cruise and 1200 nm. On good conditions lift would mean extended fuel free periods on battery/ solar power or no power.

 

The future has come for our dinosaurs

Last night I did a deep dive into talks from the sustainable aviation foundation. It gave me a sense of optimism to see that smart people are working in the background on these issues.

Loads of interesting presentations here. It takes a bit of commitment to watch all of these talks but even a bit of skip through some of them will show the interesting research and projects being undertaken.

Sustainable Aviation Foundation

The chief designer from Pipistrel gives a talk about his involvement with the MAHEPA (Modular Hybrid Propulsion Solutions). It does look like hydrogen may be the future of passenger aircraft.

I see that Pipistrel has supplied NASA with electric motors for the x57 project.

Interesting times

How does the battery pack perform with age?

Yes that is the crucial question. The operating costs are very low however you have to compare the lifetime cost. I guess we need the batteries to last as long as the typical combustion engine. By the way the vid I just posted which interesting but a little dry suggests that traditional props are not very efficient as a turbine but symmetrical, multi bladed props (5 6 7 or 8 blades) regen becomes extremely efficient.

This looks interesting but quite long, I have only just started watching so no idea of the content

IF you are able to select a large regen figure..

My understanding is that you do not and cannot perform an action to select the amount of regen you get other than by pulling back power all the way and pitching down. In the video, the instructor points out to the person under instruction that you will hardly notice it except the power usage meter will go into negative numbers. One thing I totally agree with you on though is that the amount of charge is not that impressive. We are not talking about huge amounts of power here. As a range extender, it is not all that impressive. The study that I quoted was from a study using a converted Cirrus sr22. They managed 5.4% but they did not see this as a game changer. My prediction would be that either Pipistrel will improve the efficiency or perhaps drop it. I think if I purchased one with the option I would take it if it was no too much more.

It may also be useful in aircraft that require air brakes but that is something I am not so familiar with. I note that the Pipistrel Virus (piston) does come with airbrakes.

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Look I think we are not necessarily saying much that is radically different. Regen will either improve or it will be one of the many ideas tried and rejected but just at the moment it is still in the game and being studied from NASA down to Pipistrel.

It would come down like a brick if you were to try to get the full re gen rate

It may be more accurate to phrase this "if you come down like a brick you will get full regen (not sure what you mean by full regen)"

"Whilst I accept that a company selling a product may exaggerate or lie this has not been my only source of information. A search of the net does turn up academic papers and conference presentations such as "Matthew D. Olson. "A Conceptual Approach to Flight-Training Mission and Cost Analysis of an All-Electric Aircraft Equipped with Regenerative Energy Devices", Georgia Institute of Technology

I can only read the first page but I have ordered the rest (not to have an argument but because I genuinely would like to learn more).

Of course, I do need to carefully read the whole paper when I get it but it dose say

"Incorporating energy recapture devices improves mission performance by increasing overall at the expense of greater cost and complexity, but large uncertainty as to the device cost and performance exists. They were not considered vital for mission accomplishment in the current state of technology and accounted for 5.4% of the total mission energy requirement"

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It will be interesting to read the whole thing. Now, this is neither a ringing endorsement for regen of various types but it also would suggest that it is not a ridiculous idea.

Here is a clip of a circuit in a electro. From the 7 minute mark, you can see base, final and touchdown. During this time mild regen cuts in and out and for much of time is at net 0. The approach does not seem extraordinary.

My position is this. The company probably exaggerates, possibly quoting the figures obtained a skilled pilot in ideal weather. Interestingly in the clip with Paul Bertorelli from Avweb he asks if there is any regen whilst landing and there was none because the gusty conditions called for an approach with some throttle. So I suspect that at this stage its advantages are probably minimal and a lot would depend on the cost to benefit.

I do not believe that it makes this aircraft into a death machine (slight exaggeration of what you are saying). Whilst the notion that an inexperienced pilot might be chasing regen by lowering the nose too much it is also possible that I could look at the fuel flow meter in the Tecnam and decide that if I poke the nose down I will reduce the fuel flow but of course if I reach the ground before the runway I am in trouble

Anway pending any new information I am probably done.

I've fully explained exactly where the logic is of this is and the small savings that are likely to be obtained.

I agree these are likely to be small savings. I believe in their literature they quote 13% "theoretically" of course we know that manufacturers will provide the most advantageous figures they can calculate.

I am happy to accept your calculations of 3% The modern car is a lot more fuel efficient than the car of 30 years ago. These improvements happened in small increments. A car designer would be pleased with a 3% improvement in economy.

I think your other criticism was if I understand you correctly that because of regen the flying technique would be so different that it may endanger a pilot who has trained in this aircraft when they fly a more standard plane. I learnt to fly in a Thruster then transitioned to a Gazelle and now I fly a Tecnam or occasionally a Pioneer 300. When you pull the power on approach all of these aircraft behave differently. A pilot who learns to fly in a slippery aircraft and then transitions to a draggy machine needs to be taught to get that nose down before reducing the power.

In any aircraft, I have flown, landing is about the pitch and power - (sorry not trying to tell you how to suck eggs). I don't really see that there is a world of difference. In any of these aircraft approach speed is king. If in your electro you if you are maintaining your 60 knot approach speed and because of a steepened approach due to drag from regen you find yourself low then you bump up the throttle 10% giving you no regen so less drag and slightly more power. I don't doubt that there are probably some techniques that are different in this aircraft but the differences between a thruster and a rutan varieze are also important. I guess my point is requiring a different technique should not stand in the way of progress.

I started this thread specifically in this forum rather than the other one because I was hoping for a broader discussion on technological progress. We seemed to have gotten bogged down in one aspect. I mean for all I care they could remove the regen function or they could just call it an airbrake. I am more interested in the big picture.

I am not a Pipistrel fanboy but I do like that they seem keen to invest in progress, whether it be the 4 seater electro or the more ambitious 12 seater hydrogen plane. I believe that the future of most areas of aviation will NOT be battery powered but this training aircraft designed for circuit use not cross country is a good thing and a necessary step along the way to further progress.

nomadpete was probably right, I may have generated a broader conversation on the other forum.

That's like when I got into a lift in a car park and each button for each floor was also in braille...a car park?????

My guess would be that almost every application of elevator buttons would be usable by blind or sight impaired folks. Since having braille poses no imposition on sighted people I would imagine that when a lift is installed they just buy one and don't bother to say hey can you leave the braille off.

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Partially sighted people also use braille.

I did a search on this and found this posting on a forum

Reply

Leoninus Fate 1 year ago

Saying us that are blind cant use a mirror? I have only one eye, I can see faces, I can not read words perfectly, thus is why there is braille, for people that are like me, hell I would have loved this when I was 8 I guess cause you can see, this means you never have to touch braille, I know a lot of people that just touch it and go "wow this is how the blind see" But you dont need it, I imagine you touching it and saying " Im too stupid to understand this"

During my time as a musician in the RAAF we used to do educational concerts at schools including on one occasion a school for deaf kids. This might sound stupid but is not. Deafness is not necessarily total and even totally deaf can feel vibrations. We had kids gathered around to feel the vibrations straight from the instrument.

I would imagine a partially sighted kid would get some pleasure from this. I could also imagine explaining to fully sighted child what these dots are and what braille is for. I don't really see a downside.

Regen performance with different propellors

An Optimal Propeller Design for In-Flight Power Recuperation on an Electric Aircraft

Pipistrel reduces by 6% the energy consumption of an electrical aircraft by optimizing its propeller with FINE™/Turbo

Full paper at An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

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I would imagine these figures were obtained under ideal conditions with a test pilot and therefore may not be realised in everyday flying.

But it won't apply to other" More normal" aircraft. I'm not knocking this plane . Just quantifying the supposed efficiency gain. If you fly other types (as you are permitted to do) you had better be prepared for a significant difference in how its performance varies. Some people do this instinctively and others transition painfully..Thinking you are IN another plane is not helpful. It's more than where the blinker switch is located, stuff. If your engine fails (regardless of how noisy it is/was you must be trained to act appropriately to the situation. With electric there should be a large improvement in reliability as the INFERNAL COMBUSTION reciprocating engine is notorious for failing. It also runs out of fuel due to no fault of it's own. An Electric power unit will also run out of fuel. Planes should be operated on an energy considered basis. Height or speed interchange to a certain extent. High and fast and you must get rid of energy. Low and slow and you are in the Poo as you need energy fast.. Controlling speed with pitch is not an option then. Nev

Nev, what are the claimed figures? Within the stuff I posted they do quantify the expected return, I am just wondering if you have read the claims and dispute them, and if they are incorrect what do you calculate the actual return to be? I understand that plane manufacturers tend to give optimistic specs but I would be surprised if it was totally false. I can only go the published figures and various flight test videos. The manual which I have downloaded points out that the approach is slightly stepper than without regen but not dramatic. In terms of the transition from another plane, well, of course, it would be foolish to just a jump in a different aircraft. I fly a Tecnam and sometimes a pioneer 300 if I haven't flown the 300 for a while I get a check flight. This aircraft is specifically a trainer for use in the circuit., it is designed to be cheap to run and quiet enough to not annoy the neighbours. The circuit pattern does not look radically different and I imagine it would not take long for a piston engine pilot to transition, Here is a training vid of a typical circuit. It doesn't seem to vary wildly from a piston aircraft.

Nev, it doesn't bother me that you are sceptical and I am interested in what you have to say. It makes for a better discussion when the original material and facts and figures are sited and critiqued. The quoted figures may be incorrect but I would expect the flying schools operating these aircraft would have real-world experience.

On the Avweb vid there does not seem to be any special procedure in fact on some of the vids the passenger asks if they are using regen I cant see anything in the Avweb vid that looks to be radically different am I missing something? I think to generate a modest amount of power does not require diving towards the ground.

For a description a circuits

Pipistrel Alpha Electro: The trainer of the future? - AOPA

Several other articles do quantify the amount of regen. I can only assume that it does provide some benefit without reducing performance or safety. Would be interesting to talk to the flying school in Perth to see what their real experience .

Nev they do qote some figures. I have no idea how accurate they are. I can probably post a link to a vid with an interview with the test pilot and designer. Are you saying that regen is not useful in anyway? These aircraft are being used in flying schools in Europe and a flying school in Perth. Time will tell if they are successful or not.