octave

Octave, you are avoiding the fact that the average height of many tribes of Africans is greater than the average height of any asians, Cambodians included.Mind you, it is a real good point you made about how knowing about different racial characteristics is of no practical use. For example, you select a basketball team on their heights, not on their ethnicity. It is only afterwards somebody notices that they are mainly negros and no asians.

The reasons are many. Do Australians have natural ability when it comes or surfing or do they have more access to the beach? Of course differrent ethnicities may statisticsl tendencies to different physical charactoristics. It is not as if there are no tall asians or short africans. By the way do marathon runners need tp be tall?

7

You only have to look at how big they are to see why asians are not as fast as negros. Don't tell me that size is determined by cultural stuff.As for typical Australians, how can you have such a person when they are so many born overseas?

So you reject the notion of a typical Australian because we are born in many places and I would agree. Asia covers many countries and cultures, it is very broad term which could include a Japanes business man or a Cambodian villager.

[

You only have to look at how big they are to see why asians are not as fast as negros. Don't tell me that size is determined by cultural stuff.As for typical Australians, how can you have such a person when they are so many born overseas?

yeh octave have seen still don't know neil

Neil I don't even know what that means. Have seen what??? still, don't know what????

check your mouth the crap still spilling out neil

Neil why are your posts so angry and aggressive?. I assume you are unhappy and disappointed with your life. There are many people here I disagree with but most of us are dignified and intelligent enough to have robust but polite debate.

"Perhaps NZ should impose an Aussie ban "How would you get to see your son !.

 

I have friends there & prefer to host them to Sydney and see a Hot sunny day.

 

spacesailor

irony

I have a great affinity with NZ as my son lives Wellington and had just left Christchurch. I visit NZ regularly and find it a peaceful and relaxed place. Perhaps NZ should impose an Aussie ban akin to the Muslim ban. Of course, not all Aussies are terrorists but you can't tell which ones are. If you want to see crazy have a look at Fraser Anning's twitter feed. Jeez, I am sick of right wing morons.

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Take any stereotypical characteristic you like, and I do not fit that characteristic. I'm the most boring person you ever came across.Don't drink, don't smoke, don't have tattoos, haven't played sport since school, haven't been to a footy game this century, my only drugs are prescribed medications, celebate for more than 15 years. (too much information), haven't been to a cinema this century. Yes, I have attended a few concerts - Rolling Stones, Fleetwood Mac, John Fogarty, etc.

You are a typical Australian, by that I mean unpredictable and unique.

Since I accept that different groups have particular characteristics, I hereby bet that I will donate to Octave's choice of charity $50 every time a person of Chinese appearance ( Includes Japanese, Koreans etc ) wins the 100 metres gold medal at the Olympics.And I'm not a racist because my bike is too slow, I'm only a bit misogynistic and only a bit alcoholic.

I note that the Chinese excel at table tennis does this mean that they are genetically endowed in some way? A more rational explanation may be that the Chinese government funds certain sports due to some notion of national identity? Australia has traditionally done well in swimming. Is this because of some kind of genetic disposition, probably not. More likely to do with our climate combined with our beach loving culture as weoll as some past success. Does this mean that Asians are unsuited to swimming ..... unlikely?

No one has so far been prepared to give me a profile of the average Aussie male.

Just like someone saying "Bloody Aussies!"Which is a generalisation that suggests that the typical Aussie male can be expected to commit atrocities.

To be clear that statement from my son was ironic.

Since I accept that different groups have particular characteristics, I hereby bet that I will donate to Octave's choice of charity $50 every time a person of Chinese appearance ( Includes Japanese, Koreans etc ) wins the 100 metres gold medal at the Olympics.And I'm not a racist because my bike is too slow, I'm only a bit misogynistic and only a bit alcoholic.

What characteristics do ageing Aussie men have?

Whilst at the leading edge of performance it may be true that there may be no Asian Olympic medalists in running (and you know I am going to look it up) this does not mean that I would win a running race with 20 random Asians...... does it? it is said (but of course I need to check the facts) that men are better at maths than women. I haven't done formal maths since 1979 but my wife taught maths for several years. Draw your own conclusions as to which one of us an INTELLIGENT person would ask for help with a maths problem

" If we accept that different groups have particular characteristics, how do we use this information?

What stereotypes can we apply to Australian men?"

 

With regard to the first,

 

Why would one wish to use this information? To what end? These are esoteric questions. I don't understand how or why one would use stereotype information to relate to an individual, since generalisations, by their nature are not specific to individuals.

 

With regard to the second,

 

I have no interest in what stereotypes that may be applied to the 'average' Aussie males, or females, apart from having a laugh at the way that stereotypes don't seem to fit most of the people I know.

 

I'm sorry to hear your son has been having problems. We visited Christchurch before and after vthe quake.(if that's what you are referring to). NZ is a nice place. I deeply admire the work you do. Unfortunately I haven't a musical bone in my body (I'm a typical Aussie white middle aged, poorly educated male). Thank you for the debate.

 

Personally, I wait until an individual says or does something before I start making judgements. After that it's open slather.

Sorry been bit of a tough day in my usually easy life.

If there is no point in using a stereotype then perhaps there is no point in holding a stereotype. I guess this is my point. I am in no way suggesting you are. Nah my son left a day before, but when I enquired about the incident he said "bloody Aussies"

Well !,If Trump gets trumped, on that wall, he should Sack all the personal working there.

 

Lets see what happens when thousands of illegals Walk into the states,

 

How much money will be allocated to catch them After they're in.

 

spacesailor

There is no emergency but it is a good way to fire the anxious and poorly educated.

After the recession ended, Mexican border crossings stayed low; in 2017 alone, the population of Mexican-born immigrants in the U.S. dropped more than 300,000, according to an analysis of Census data by the Pew Charitable Trusts. “The sudden plunge,” Pew reported, “seems to be an acceleration of a long-term trend of native Mexicans returning to their homeland.”

Immigration crisis? The stats tell a different story

More than 60% of undocumented immigrants who arrived in the US in 2016 (the latest data available) overstayed their visas, not crossed the border illegally, according to a new report by Center for Migration Studies (CMS).

Most undocumented immigrants don’t cross the border illegally

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Are you suggesting that"Asians tend to be nerdy but not well rounded" ?

 

What sort of generalisation is that?

lol no, I am suggesting that is a commonly held stereotype, but not held by me. I have been teaching since 1990 and although I have not kept a list of how many students I have taught hundreds of students and I can honestly say that least useful predictor of success, failure or mediocrity is ethnicity or culture, if it is there it is small and overshadowed by other things. I have found at least in my field that parental involvement does actually play a part.

OME's generalisation about Asian kids being more likely to posess grest theoretical skills but lack practical application skills does (to me) make a point.

My observation is that highly academic folk tend to lack practical applied logic (generally, of course). For instance, I know a couple of uni grads and doctors, who can't be trusted to start a lawn mower or assemble an IKEA kit without making silly mistakes.

 

But the generalisation is not a ethnic one, so much. Its a result of spending most of their waking time studying instead of learning by trial and error. The school of hard knocks tends to teach practical stuff. The school of universities tend to teach theory.

 

That's my generalisation.

Is it important for a doctor to be able to start a lawnmower and assemble Ikea furniture? I imagine the average doctor would say "why the hell would I want to mow my own lawn when I can pay someone to do it" seems fair to me.

The variations within a group are greater than the variations between groups. I have had many Asian students who are not particularly academically gifted. I recall an Asian student complaining to me that it was annoying that people assumed they were academically gifted.when they were actually pretty ordinary.

We tend to look at other groups and assign characteristics whilst there may be tendencies perhaps due to cultural differences these differences are usually small and not that significant.

Most people fall into many contradictory groups.

How can I be categorized?

I am a musician - what stereotype can be applied.

I spent 12 years as a musician in the military - this comes with a stereotype

I owner built a house, am I a builder type?

Home educated my son - what type of person does that make me?

Born in England - what does this say about me?

I was an immigrant - what type of person does this make me?

I consider myself Australian - does this mean I am obsessed with sport?

Grew up in the suburbs.

Lived on a large rural property

Live I in an apartment

Am I a South Australian a New South Welshman a Victorian.

I am a recreational pilot.

I am all of these things. All of these groups have different stereotypes.

I am not saying there are not tendencies, for example, immigrants may be more economically and academically ambitious. I work a couple of days a week at a studio in Footscray which has a large ethnic population. The Asian population in this area by and large fall lower down the socioeconomic scale, they are mostly not accountants and doctors. The usual stereotype tells me nothing about what these people are like.

The fact that someone who has just spent many years doing a medical degree and may not have learned skills outside of this area applies across the board regardless of ethnicity. By the way, a lot of a medical degree is done in hospitals with real patients and is practical.

If t Asians tend to be nerdy but not well rounded perhaps this is an advantage if I an employer is looking to employ accountants. They perhaps are not required to deal with customers but must be fantastic at the numbers. Perhaps they could eliminate all the resumes that do not have an Asian name on them.

Some questions I would love an answer to are:

If we accept that different groups have particular characteristics, how do we use this information?

What stereotypes can we apply to Australian men?

Your students are simply becoming skilled in a mechanical task. They aren't taking the physics of harmonics into untried areas.

Can you give an example a musician who is "taking the physics of harmonics into untried areas"

. Many of my students are improvising which involves understanding the chord structure and then composing a melody on the fly. This melody has to do more than just not sound wrong it has to lead somewhere, it has to be original. When learning a written piece of music the student may be able to play the correct rhythm and correct notes it then has to be interpreted. The piece needs to be phrased. In my area (woodwind) notes are not automatically in tune but you have to listen an adjust each note as you go (intonation). I could on (and on). In the classical music field, there are probably hundreds of different recordings of let's say the Beethoven symphonies. If we were talking about purely about a mechanical skill there would be no point in anyone else recording, we would just have the definitive one version. I would have thought that you would credit your favourite musicians with more than just being able to sing the correct pitch and place their fingers in the correct place on the fretboard. In terms of a music degree, you have to have the mechanical skills before you are admitted, during the course, you learn how to actually be musical. There is a high failure rate.

Anyway, my point was more general and related to

These Asian and Oriental kids come out of universities with few practical skills other than those which might be associated with their field of study. Even then they most often only hold theoretical knowledge.

How do you know this is true?

I am saying that this is not my experience and is merely a stereotype not born out by my students or indeed fellow teachers many of whom are Asian. I did use to work with a Russian music teacher who used to say that Australian students are lazy and anti-intellectual but this is just another dumb stereotype. Even if there were some truth to this stereotype so what? It is meaningless. People tend to believe stereotypes about others but reject those about themselves.

There are many stereotypes around, what are the characteristics of a policeman, a cardinal an older person a scoutmaster?

I agree with this guy

This actually says that of the top 50 mathematicians in the world (or physicists or whatever), a large majority are going to be red people. It is a big, big effect at the end of the tail.

It does not provide a good prediction of what a random red or blue will be. If we overlay the average Australian IQ over the average Hong Kong IQ you would get something like the bell curves I posted. Whatever this means at the tail choosing a candidate from Hong Kong instead of one from Australia does not make the odds much greater of getting the best candidate or whatever.

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All I can say is that the evidence of the complainant must have been overwhelming to rebut evidence in reply that can be demonstrated repeatedly with constant result. This is the evidence of times locations and distances.

What is the evidence of "time and distance"? What you posted did not contain times or distances in any meaningful way.

I did not bring Ridsdale in it to suggest that because he is guilty therefore Pell must be, but purely because those who defend Pell suggest that it could not have possibly happened in this kind of church setting. Ridsdale provides a precedent that this can and at least in Ridsdale's case did happen in a church in confession in a car in his house. As a defence, it is relevant but weak.

The fact is that he was found guilty by a jury. This could be overturned or not. You and I have not seen the evidence but the jury has as well as the police and public prosecutor. It is quite a high bar to reach to get 12 people to agree. I believe one of the grounds for appeal is the disallowance of the animation. I would imagine that the admissibility of this will be assessed at the appeal. If it is deemed to be admissible I guess there will be a retrial if not I guess it will probably be made available to the public.

but how good are these kids at decomposing the construction of a musical piece?

Apart from the creation of some new instruments, what radical revision of the physics of sound creation have changed in the past few centuries?

I am not sure I understand the question.

Stereotypes are simply not useful. If a new student walks through my door their ethnicity tells me nothing useful. Even if there are differences you don't know where on the scale a particular person is.

If you measure someone's performance in a particular area such as intelligence, maths ability piloting ability creativeness etc you would get a bell curve. Let's say that red people are better at mathematics than blue people. These bell curves overlap unless the difference is enormous. This tells me that the smartest mathematician in the world is slightly more likely to be a red person than a blue person. It also tells me that if I met a red or blue person they are much more likely to fall within the overlap.

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I reject stereotypes. The fact that I am a white ageing Australian male may tell others a little about what I "might" be like but I do not fit the stereotype that other countries may have about the average Australian. The stereotype does not really perform a useful function.

1. Being selected to be part of the Cathedral's choir is something worked hard for, and selection is a great honour.
    
   
2. Discipline in the choir is very strict. The Masters will brook no fooling around. The Seniors would keep not hesitate to crash down on bad behaviour of the younger boys.
    
   

It is not uncommon for people in privileged positions to jeopardize everything for ridiculous reasons. Politicians on enormous income risk it all by making a dodgy claim for travel allowances for a few hundred dollars. Sports stars who assault someone whilst on a big night out or allow themselves to be filmed taking drugs etc. Kids who go to exclusive private schools getting themselves expelled. It is not uncommon for a 13-year-old to make decisions that have not been thoroughly thought through.

The sacristy is out of bounds to choirboys (See point 2)

I imagine it would be out of bounds. I believe that part of the prosecution case was the complainant's ability to describe the layout of sacristy suggesting that at some time the complainant had been in the sacristy.

Two choirboys in their robes going into the sacristy area of the cathedral would stand out like dog's balls.

I have been in that church to do some photography. lots of pillars and other obstructions. I am not sure how many members are in the choir but it would not seem impossible to not notice a couple of boys missing. This is why school teachers do a head count when returning from an excursion.

A Cardinal is a Prince of the Church. Princes don't go wandering about the place without a retinue of assistants.

I have no knowledge of whether a "prince" of the church is ever alone or not or what the procedure is or whether they always follow procedure. I would assume that this was addressed in the evidence but I do not know.

If a Cardinal found choirboys in a prohibited area, like any adult, the first response would be to bawl them out, not ball them.

Pretty much all crime involves someone doing something that is not "normal behaviour"

The Cardinal didn't know the boys - no prior grooming.

Whilst grooming is a well-known tactic, this does not rule out opportunistic abuse. Kids have been assaulted at the playground and recently in Sydney, I think by a stranger in the toilets at a dance school

The Alb is a full-length smock-like garment that would have to be hitched up to even take a pee.

If it can be hitched up to take a pee then perhaps it can be hitched up for other purposes. I honestly have no sound knowledge of the garments in question however I do note that the garments were presented to the jury who were allowed to examine and handle them. I can only presume that they did not buy the idea that the awkwardness of these garments would preclude the scenario presented by the prosecution.

A priest of any rank just doesn't rip his vestments off when disrobing. There are prayers to be said, and care taken of the garments. That's why the Cardinal would have had assistants to help him disrobe.

Does a priest disrobe immediately after the service? The fact is I don't know.

This is the most incredible part of the story: The Cardinal comes into the sacristy without his retinue. He catches two choirboys in a prohibited area - a crime against cathedral discipline. Instead of doing what any other person catching miscreants in the act, the Cardinal, without thought of discovery, hitches up his vestments, flops out his old fella and demands a knob job. All in six minutes.

This scenario does not seem to be impossible. As far as what "any person would do catching miscreants" does not really provide much of a defence. The ordinary person would not kill someone, rob a bank beat their husband/wife but this does not mean that people do not behave in these ways.

The defence of "this behaviour is not normal therefore probably did not happen" could equally apply the Gerald Riddsdale.

"Gerald Ridsdale's victims were sexually abused inside the church, in the presbytery (the parish house), in the priest's car, in victims' homes, at the home of Ridsdale's parents in the city of Ballarat, during outings, and on holidays with the priest. He molested one boy and his sister a few hours after their father's funeral.

Some of the offences occurred during the sacrament of Confession — while Ridsdale would be asking questions about a child's "sins". After Confession (and after the molestation), Ridsdale would perform the rite of Absolution — an official declaration that the child was forgiven for the child's "sins".

Many offences occurred before and after the celebration of Mass, First Holy Communions, Confirmation ceremonies, weddings and funerals. Many of the victims were altar boys.

One altar boy was even sexually abused at the altar when the church was empty and locked after Mass."

If we are to consider things that are unlikely we should then consider the story of the accuser. The fact that the allegations were made so long after the event is often sighted as evidence of a false allegation. It does not seem usual to me that back in the 90s we weren't as aware of organised abuse. It is only in recent years that these things have been acknowledged. A 13-year-old who had done something wrong and perhaps feels some guilt may be reluctant to accuse someone who holds such a high and revered position. Pell, an obviously intelligent and somewhat articulate man did not allow himself to submit to cross-examination if it were me I would not forgo that right.

For what purpose did this man make these allegations? At this point, I have heard no mention of money as far as I know there is no civil case at least at this point. I would imagine that the easiest route to a payout would be to deal directly with the church, get a payout sign the non-disclosure agreement as many have done. What he actually did was open himself to vigorous cross-examination. He does not seem to have done it for notoriety since to protect himself and his family he has remained anonymous. In order to concoct this story, the complainant would need to come up with a particular occasion and make sure the other boy was present on that day and would need to know the approximate layout of the sacristy (which had been out of bounds).

We do know that although child abuse can occur in all areas of society the one thing we are sure about is that within the Catholic (and other churches) there is a history not just of abuse but more troublingly organised institutionalised abuse and the protection of abusers. Also the moving of abusing priests to other parishes.

Is Pell guilty? We can never know for sure unless he confesses. Obviously, the police believed that there was a strong case as did the Office of Public Prosecutions. The first case was a mistrial because the jury was not unanimous. We do not know what the split was. In the second trial, the jury accepted the evidence, some of which is not available to the public, found him guilty. This verdict is unanimous. Of course, from time to time courts do get it wrong but it is the best we can do

These Asian and Oriental kids come out of universities with few practical skills other than those which might be associated with their field of study. Even then they most often only hold theoretical knowledge.

This is not my experience. I have quite a few Asian music students at the moment and have had many in the past. The typical Asian student I teach tends to be a high achiever in many areas. At the moment my student C is in year 9 at a selective school, he plays in the school orchestra and bad (which have quite high standards) as well as studying for his Grade 5 music exam. He has parental expectations to excel in all areas. Another student 15 T is an Asian girl who his pretty good at 2 instruments and goes to a selective school. Thankfully her although her parents expect high standards academically and in sports they have made it clear that her music is purely for relaxation. This means we get to have great fun playing jazz duets during her lesson. When I get a new student I can't afford to make any assumptions about them, this would be 9intellectually lazy and so often would prove to be incorrect.

I do resist the tendency to ascribe characteristics to various groups. The fact that Hong Kong has the highest average IQ (108) and Australia has the 9th highest (98) https://brainstats.com/average-iq-by-country.html tells you nothing about the next Australian or Hong Kong resident you meet. The education and family circumstances of the individual. If stereotypes have any validity then it would be interesting to ponder what are the stereotypes of an Australian and how useful are they in predicting what the next Australian you meet will be like.

My clinic has NONE.Not even kids (Child's) , use to have them when first opened but probably don't read (Australian literature) books.

 

spacesailor

I usually read this forum on my phone whilst in the waiting room.

There was no "exclusion" of white Australians at all. There was an "adjustment" to the raw scores if you were of " non-english-speaking background" as I have explained.

Do you mean ATAR required to apply or UMAT or GAMSAT tests? Of course, this may be very different from the past.

Anyway whatever happened in the past is not a point that we need to wonder about as the figures are recorded. We know that in 2018 3822 students commenced a medical degree. 3171 were domestic students and 651 were international students. The term foreign is problematic. Does it refer to how you look or where you were born? As you say white students are not excluded.

Yes, of course, there was Dr death as well as the occasional locally trained doctors who slip through the system although ultimately detected by other staff in the hospital. Just like pilot training and certification for airlines, it works 99.9% of the time. There is no other country I would rather live in terms of medical care.

Just getting back to the original post

Many of the waiting patients could be fixed by nurses, or lesser qualified doctors, but this may expose the hospital to litigation.

Having had a few trips to ER in the last 5 years some for myself and some for my old dad (91 next week) the usual procedure seems to be an assessment by the triage nurse and after a perhaps considerable wait assessment and perhaps treatment by a resident or a registrar. A few years ago I thought I might be having a heart attack. The triage nurse checked my vitals and thought that I probably wasn't (she was right) I was then seen by a young resident who liaised on the phone with the cardiology department, I was monitored for an hour had a blood test and was sent on my way (with some mylanta) It is hard to see how this could have been done any more efficiently.

I am all for the idea of more being done by paraprofessionals such as nurses but I am not sure it would necessarily be the total solution. Nurses are already extremely busy therefore I think we would need more of them. If we want them to do more complex procedures we would need to train them and of course, they would need to be paid at a better rate. Not saying it is a bad idea but sitting outside any system looking in it is easy to think that the solution is cheap and easy but most systems or more complicated than they initially look

I use the nearest medical clinic, & normally have to have the reception, to repeat, their words more slowly,Except one Indian Dr who has a very nice but very quiet voice, No troubles there but she is a Dr, not a receptionist.

 

I also have a grand-daughter (adult) with a Tiny voice, I tell her "My hearing aid is in it's box, Please shout a little", & my wife alway's tells me to stop shouting as everyone can hear me, everywhere.LoL

 

spacesailor

lol, should I post in CAPITAL LETTERS? I am the stage where my hearing is still not bad but it does get a little more difficult in a crowded place.